I thought the keeper made contact and most strikers will say if you feel it you go down. Did not think it was as clear and blatant as some did but if you already don't like a player sometimes it becomes the worst crime in world.
Well said Floyd, judging by some of the comments on this thread you would think that we are the worst offenders when it comes to the dark arts.There’s been more written about Samuel’s misdemeanour than any of the offences committed against us. Glad you mentioned the Norwich incident because that blatant dive cost us a point.
Having repeatedly heard from opposition managers last season about how we "have a game plan" and are good at "what we do" and how they "know what they're going to get", have we heard any of those soundbites this season at all?
I know we've lost a lot of games, but we have won a couple and drawn a few. So a few managers might have felt the need to be bitter at the small time team. But I don't think they have as much if at all?
@glasshalffull said:
I agree that blatant diving is wrong and should be outlawed. The difficulty I have is that referees too often guess and issue cards when they can’t be certain that a player has been fouled.
This is what I thought tv technology was going to emphasise on. But now we have the folly of long delays looking to see if someone's finger is seeking an advantage in an offside position.
Along the subject of cheating...how would people have felt if Bloomfield had "taken one for the team" in the attack which lead to their goal. It was a dangerous break forming (obviously because they scored from it!) and Blooms just stuck out a soft arm to try to stop their player getting past. Personally I'd have liked to have seen a bit of a tactical foul to stop the attack. He would have been booked but they wouldn't have scored. Where would that be on the spectrum of cheating?? Worse than diving?
@Wendoverman said:
My biggest disappointment was, and my biggest worry is, McLeary not starting aside, there should have been some goals and goal-threat in that team...
Having watched McCleary's performance when he came on, I think he should be starting over all our other wide options. Even this vintage version without his top level pace showed plenty of ability to keep the ball under pressure and beat players and deliver repeatedly .
I don't think any of our other wide options have the same capacity.
I'd class Horgan as a more central player for the avoidance of doubt.
It would be relatively easy to discourage diving - review each game and issue three game bans for obvious dives. It is the worst part of the game, and though I love everything else about Samuel, I can't stand the flopping. My wife watched just a few minutes of a game before saying "Alex Samuel falls over a lot, doesn't he?"
I agree about being in a league where others are doing the same - I just want it stamped out altogether as much as possible.
Agreed Mr Plant, I think when I read football fans thoughts on various outlets of social media, it paints certain teams fans in a good light, when they show disapproval of their own teams antics.
It's quite simple, Alex Samuel attempted to cheat yesterday, and some people have voiced their concern over this, rather than bleating about other teams doing similar things.
My initial instinct on the Samuel incident was that it wasn't a penalty, so I wasn't surprised to see him booked.
How Powell escaped even a booking for the judo move that injured McCarthy that would have been right in the eyeline of the lino by the family stand was a disgrace.
It’s about balance and context. If we are going to take the moral high ground about our own players, why is it inappropriate to discuss familiar traits in other teams?
@ReadingMarginalista said:
My initial instinct on the Samuel incident was that it wasn't a penalty, so I wasn't surprised to see him booked.
How Powell escaped even a booking for the judo move that injured McCarthy that would have been right in the eyeline of the lino by the family stand was a disgrace.
That one got worse every time I saw it. And it directly affected the outcome of the game IMHO.
@Wendoverman said:
My biggest disappointment was, and my biggest worry is, McLeary not starting aside, there should have been some goals and goal-threat in that team...
Having watched McCleary's performance when he came on, I think he should be starting over all our other wide options. Even this vintage version without his top level pace showed plenty of ability to keep the ball under pressure and beat players and deliver repeatedly .
I don't think any of our other wide options have the same capacity.
I'd class Horgan as a more central player for the avoidance of doubt.
Fred's currently our most creative player with Bayo a close-ish 2nd, but even they're producing very little in the grand scheme of things. That said, 7 goals from almost 14 xG as a team is the worst differential in the league, and by now it's down to more than good goalkeeping / last-ditch defending / unfortunate deflections. Apart from Kashket, our best finishers aren't getting into good enough positions - we need to get Fred and Horgan in the box more. Bayo has also had a couple he'll know he should have scored (v Watford and Forest).
We either need to create more - quite a lot more - because it takes us a lot of chances to score (take out the OG v Birmingham and it's 1 goal for every 24 shots) or improve our finishing, which might mean getting a striker on loan in Jan. We're close - defensively we've become much better and games have become much tighter - and we have had games where we've genuinely threatened (Millwall, Watford, Birmingham, Derby), but we need to become more consistent in the final third. And fast.
With regards to Samuel-and I’m not talking about the much discussed incident last night-we shouldn’t forget that at 5’8” tall he’s never going to win many headers against much bigger defenders and he plays mainly with his back to goal. Those defenders often come barging into him and knock him to the ground rather than him deliberately diving. Yes, he can be accused of looking to win free kicks sometimes, but no way is he a serial cheat.
@glasshalffull - yes agree he's not big and plays some of the time with his back to goal, but you cannot get away from the fact , he falls over a lot of the time with very little contact. I certainly don't think he is a serial cheat but unfortunately he is limited at this standard of football. He is not going to get the goals we need to compete at this level
I know we did not exactly test him but the keeper looked very good. Must admit going on the Stoke forum their fans seem quite an unpleasant bunch...about their own team never mind us. Makes Gasroom disquiet about one of our misfiring forwards look positively...well...positive.
This picture from the club website reflects how it looked to me at the time: I thought there was contact, that it wasn't much, as the keeper tried to stop and that Samuel made a bit more of it than there was. I concluded that it wasn't a penalty, but that neither did it deserve a booking and was disappointed when the card came out.
Some of the time with his back to the goal! @davecz. What do you watch, he very rarely has any option but to play that way. I would say he gets 65% of the service with a gargantuan defender welded to his spine.
Having watched it on TV and numerous replays... there was no contact and he did dive.
I'll be honest I've always championed Alex in the past as I think he offers a lot to the team in his effort, so I'm certainly no hater, but ever since a friend of mine pointed out how much he falls over that is all I can see now, and to be honest he does go over a lot, and easily.
@FmG my thought was that the arm waved by Bloomfield was indeed his attempt to take one for the team and bring the man down but he failed.
I wouldn't have complained had he been successful and got booked for it either.
Yes it's cheating just like diving but somehow it seems to be more acceptable.
Can we now please call a halt to this debate? What should have been a joyful reflection on the night fans finally returned to Adams Park has turned into a character assassination of one of our own players.
Alex Samuel is the only person who knows for certain if he deliberately dives, the rest is pure speculation.
This picture from the club website reflects how it looked to me at the time: I thought there was contact, that it wasn't much, as the keeper tried to stop and that Samuel made a bit more of it than there was. I concluded that it wasn't a penalty, but that neither did it deserve a booking and was disappointed when the card came out.
This picture from the club website reflects how it looked to me at the time: I thought there was contact, that it wasn't much, as the keeper tried to stop and that Samuel made a bit more of it than there was. I concluded that it wasn't a penalty, but that neither did it deserve a booking and was disappointed when the card came out.
From afar it looked like the classic scenario where the striker was going to get to the ball first and would likely get clattered.
I don't blame a striker in that circumstance for bracing themselves for it, but their keeper was smart enough not to leave too much in.
@glasshalffull - I didn't realise there were rules as to what can and cannot be discussed on this forum. I know you would like a forum that only discusses positive news about our team but that's not the reality of supporting a team. Just because a poster says something negative about the team, it does not mean they feel less passionate about them.
For me the worst dive is one where the attacking team had an excellent chance to score if the diver had stayed on his feet.
Which is what happened last night with Samuel from my viewpoint. The keeper came charging out of his goal when he didn't need to, and wasn't favourite to get the ball. Samuel got there first and could have got the ball into the box/edge of box leaving a keeperless goal to aim at. You could see their defenders desperately trying to get back on the line, and must have been overjoyed to see Samuel make such a terrible decision.
In fact I was at that end and, due to the limited crowd, heard one shout "EY oop me duck, what the bloody hell is he doing now!"
Comments
I thought the keeper made contact and most strikers will say if you feel it you go down. Did not think it was as clear and blatant as some did but if you already don't like a player sometimes it becomes the worst crime in world.
Well said Floyd, judging by some of the comments on this thread you would think that we are the worst offenders when it comes to the dark arts.There’s been more written about Samuel’s misdemeanour than any of the offences committed against us. Glad you mentioned the Norwich incident because that blatant dive cost us a point.
Having repeatedly heard from opposition managers last season about how we "have a game plan" and are good at "what we do" and how they "know what they're going to get", have we heard any of those soundbites this season at all?
I know we've lost a lot of games, but we have won a couple and drawn a few. So a few managers might have felt the need to be bitter at the small time team. But I don't think they have as much if at all?
This is what I thought tv technology was going to emphasise on. But now we have the folly of long delays looking to see if someone's finger is seeking an advantage in an offside position.
My biggest disappointment was, and my biggest worry is, McLeary not starting aside, there should have been some goals and goal-threat in that team...
The aftermath of the Norwich game was full of outraged comments about that free kick. How long should we have continued to discuss it?
The reason we talk about our own players more is because, well, they're our players.
If we fail to call out our own players for diving then we lose our ability to be able to do so to horrific specimens such as Hylton.
I don't think it's going too far to not want our players to dive is it?
Along the subject of cheating...how would people have felt if Bloomfield had "taken one for the team" in the attack which lead to their goal. It was a dangerous break forming (obviously because they scored from it!) and Blooms just stuck out a soft arm to try to stop their player getting past. Personally I'd have liked to have seen a bit of a tactical foul to stop the attack. He would have been booked but they wouldn't have scored. Where would that be on the spectrum of cheating?? Worse than diving?
Having watched McCleary's performance when he came on, I think he should be starting over all our other wide options. Even this vintage version without his top level pace showed plenty of ability to keep the ball under pressure and beat players and deliver repeatedly .
I don't think any of our other wide options have the same capacity.
I'd class Horgan as a more central player for the avoidance of doubt.
It would be relatively easy to discourage diving - review each game and issue three game bans for obvious dives. It is the worst part of the game, and though I love everything else about Samuel, I can't stand the flopping. My wife watched just a few minutes of a game before saying "Alex Samuel falls over a lot, doesn't he?"
I agree about being in a league where others are doing the same - I just want it stamped out altogether as much as possible.
I would also ban players who go down clutching their face or head when there has been no contact there.
Agreed Mr Plant, I think when I read football fans thoughts on various outlets of social media, it paints certain teams fans in a good light, when they show disapproval of their own teams antics.
It's quite simple, Alex Samuel attempted to cheat yesterday, and some people have voiced their concern over this, rather than bleating about other teams doing similar things.
My initial instinct on the Samuel incident was that it wasn't a penalty, so I wasn't surprised to see him booked.
How Powell escaped even a booking for the judo move that injured McCarthy that would have been right in the eyeline of the lino by the family stand was a disgrace.
It’s about balance and context. If we are going to take the moral high ground about our own players, why is it inappropriate to discuss familiar traits in other teams?
It isn't.
That one got worse every time I saw it. And it directly affected the outcome of the game IMHO.
Fred's currently our most creative player with Bayo a close-ish 2nd, but even they're producing very little in the grand scheme of things. That said, 7 goals from almost 14 xG as a team is the worst differential in the league, and by now it's down to more than good goalkeeping / last-ditch defending / unfortunate deflections. Apart from Kashket, our best finishers aren't getting into good enough positions - we need to get Fred and Horgan in the box more. Bayo has also had a couple he'll know he should have scored (v Watford and Forest).
We either need to create more - quite a lot more - because it takes us a lot of chances to score (take out the OG v Birmingham and it's 1 goal for every 24 shots) or improve our finishing, which might mean getting a striker on loan in Jan. We're close - defensively we've become much better and games have become much tighter - and we have had games where we've genuinely threatened (Millwall, Watford, Birmingham, Derby), but we need to become more consistent in the final third. And fast.
With regards to Samuel-and I’m not talking about the much discussed incident last night-we shouldn’t forget that at 5’8” tall he’s never going to win many headers against much bigger defenders and he plays mainly with his back to goal. Those defenders often come barging into him and knock him to the ground rather than him deliberately diving. Yes, he can be accused of looking to win free kicks sometimes, but no way is he a serial cheat.
@glasshalffull - yes agree he's not big and plays some of the time with his back to goal, but you cannot get away from the fact , he falls over a lot of the time with very little contact. I certainly don't think he is a serial cheat but unfortunately he is limited at this standard of football. He is not going to get the goals we need to compete at this level
He isn't a serial cheat, no
He was waiting for contact that never came (keeper did really well actually) and went down anyway
I suspect he's cringing a bit at it today. I'd like to think so anyway
I know we did not exactly test him but the keeper looked very good. Must admit going on the Stoke forum their fans seem quite an unpleasant bunch...about their own team never mind us. Makes Gasroom disquiet about one of our misfiring forwards look positively...well...positive.
This picture from the club website reflects how it looked to me at the time: I thought there was contact, that it wasn't much, as the keeper tried to stop and that Samuel made a bit more of it than there was. I concluded that it wasn't a penalty, but that neither did it deserve a booking and was disappointed when the card came out.
Some of the time with his back to the goal! @davecz. What do you watch, he very rarely has any option but to play that way. I would say he gets 65% of the service with a gargantuan defender welded to his spine.
Having watched it on TV and numerous replays... there was no contact and he did dive.
I'll be honest I've always championed Alex in the past as I think he offers a lot to the team in his effort, so I'm certainly no hater, but ever since a friend of mine pointed out how much he falls over that is all I can see now, and to be honest he does go over a lot, and easily.
Are you suggesting that the photo above has been doctored by the club? This is a very serious allegation.
@FmG my thought was that the arm waved by Bloomfield was indeed his attempt to take one for the team and bring the man down but he failed.
I wouldn't have complained had he been successful and got booked for it either.
Yes it's cheating just like diving but somehow it seems to be more acceptable.
Sorry I didn't include Alex elbowing their keeper in the face as contact
Can we now please call a halt to this debate? What should have been a joyful reflection on the night fans finally returned to Adams Park has turned into a character assassination of one of our own players.
Alex Samuel is the only person who knows for certain if he deliberately dives, the rest is pure speculation.
From afar it looked like the classic scenario where the striker was going to get to the ball first and would likely get clattered.
I don't blame a striker in that circumstance for bracing themselves for it, but their keeper was smart enough not to leave too much in.
@glasshalffull - I didn't realise there were rules as to what can and cannot be discussed on this forum. I know you would like a forum that only discusses positive news about our team but that's not the reality of supporting a team. Just because a poster says something negative about the team, it does not mean they feel less passionate about them.
For me the worst dive is one where the attacking team had an excellent chance to score if the diver had stayed on his feet.
Which is what happened last night with Samuel from my viewpoint. The keeper came charging out of his goal when he didn't need to, and wasn't favourite to get the ball. Samuel got there first and could have got the ball into the box/edge of box leaving a keeperless goal to aim at. You could see their defenders desperately trying to get back on the line, and must have been overjoyed to see Samuel make such a terrible decision.
In fact I was at that end and, due to the limited crowd, heard one shout "EY oop me duck, what the bloody hell is he doing now!"