This is something I've just sent to a member of my team. It seems pretty relevant here as well
Hi xxx
I understand what you're saying about this. I think you know my position, but I'll say it again. I think we do have to constantly monitor our language and be ready to accept that things we've used for years without any intention of slighting people (and black / whitelisting is a good example of this) suddenly become "wrong". The reverse side of this is that we don't demonise people for using the "wrong" terminology or suggest that their use of it makes them a racist / sexist / homophobe / transphobe or whatever but just calmly and sensitively tell them that we've stopped using that term for the appropriate reason and that we now use xxx. Not easy, but perfectly doable as long as we recognise that what matters is people's intention and good will rather than whether they've received the latest memo from the thought police. You'll probably remember that this is why I so disliked the intranet article "xxx", because of its hectoring tone and because it was telling people off for something there was no reason they should know.
Great post @OakwoodExile. The point isn't to point score and tar and feather people who unintentionally upset people with a poor choice of words, but to create a respectful environment. Bayo's statement yesterday was made in this spirit as well, but has made quite a few people defensive for some reason.
In the seven years I've been back as a Season ticket holder and I've been at both ends of the Beechdean I have never heard any racist chants or even comments from my fellow fans toward any players or opposition fans. I cannot say the same for some clubs I've been to.
@ReadingMarginalista said:
Great post @OakwoodExile. The point isn't to point score and tar and feather people who unintentionally upset people with a poor choice of words, but to create a respectful environment. Bayo's statement yesterday was made in this spirit as well, but has made quite a few people defensive for some reason.
I think everyone knows the reason tbf
I agree good post by Oakwood, the problem is when there's a significant proportion of people who refuse to accept the need for change, or deliberately stay ignorant and don't engage in any conversation so they can claim a lack of malice.
How long do we give people to "learn"? Racism hasn't been acceptable for decades....
Difficult situation, but personally I'd rather the "collateral damage" be people who couldn't be bothered to keep up with what's acceptable than black / brown / any minority person who have to continue to be subject to abuse because we allow too much leeway.
Fully understand your rationale on Black/White listing as I too am engaged on a project that uses these terms for pre-denied/pre-approved decisions. The term dates back from 1590-1610 and was further refined over the years often to refer to those “not employable” due to union activities.
We also use the word black for positives. To be in the red or in the black where red is negative and black positive.
I feel we should not avoid the use of the word black where it doesn’t have racist roots. Being black or white is neither good nor bad as far as skin tone goes. It’s a matter of fact we have different skins and should be celebrated rather than hidden/avoided. The use of black/white as descriptors in general use should be acceptable. It’s when they are used a vexatious adjectives in a derogatory fashion that they are a serious issue.
John Terry calling Anton Ferdinand a C..t was bad. It was made abhorrent by adding the adjective black whereas the use of the word black for the group who rescued a white protester during the recent protests was entirely appropriate as it served to identify the group and emphasise what was being done as a positive.
@OakwoodExile
Thanks, I had been aware of such discussions.
In a previous project my use of the word Nonce, used as a descriptor to a one off cryptographic code, was questioned even though it was a term used by the US based software supplier. Nonce obviously has a different slang use in the UK.
We need to fight racism and bigotry in all forms - sexuality, sectarianism, xenophobia etc - but I’m not sure changing phrases not rooted in bigotry is the best way. As has been said many times on this thread context is everything
We need to fight racism and bigotry in all forms - sexuality, sectarianism, xenophobia etc - but I’m not sure changing phrases not rooted in bigotry is the best way. As has been said many times on this thread context is everything
I've seen this line of thinking a lot lately, in particular around the renaming of master/slave in database terminology and especially with "master" as the name of the primary branch in git source code repositories.
While the git master branch may never have had any roots in bigotry, what's the harm in moving to a world where nobody even has to think about whether it was or not. If that word has a negative emotional effect on some people, that is a good enough reason to change it to something that doesn't. Changing it is not going to make anyone's life worse, and is going to make some people's lives better. That's a good thing.
This is a difficult point to express so I hope it is taken in the context intended.
Bayo's post makes specific reference to taking a knee and wearing logo's etc. He quite rightly says that's all fine but if I understand him correctly he argues that we need to educate ourselves better and seek real change rather than just cosmetic change.
The danger of socially liberal white folks like @drcongo worrying about "black or white issues" or "master/slave" phraseology in IT is that we spent time and energy with** all the right intentions** worrying about these relatively unimportant issues and patting ourselves on the back when we correct them and forget to focus on the very real important issues of practical racism and racist attitudes that still exist today.
For me focussing on those latter issues taking care to carry along with us those currently "less enlightened" is more likely to lead to a fairer more inclusive society in the future. Overly zealous "word policing" on relatively unimportant matters risks legitimising in the eyes of the less informed those on the right who seek to seek to argue that racism is just a load of PC "woke" nonsense.
I have absolutely no doubt that @drcongo intentions are good. Just wonder if the way he is going about it risks being counterproductive.
@DevC said:
This is a difficult point to express so I hope it is taken in the context intended.
Bayo's post makes specific reference to taking a knee and wearing logo's etc. He quite rightly says that's all fine but if I understand him correctly he argues that we need to educate ourselves better and seek real change rather than just cosmetic change.
The danger of socially liberal white folks like @drcongo worrying about "black or white issues" or "master/slave" phraseology in IT is that we spent time and energy with** all the right intentions** worrying about these relatively unimportant issues and patting ourselves on the back when we correct them and forget to focus on the very real important issues of practical racism and racist attitudes that still exist today.
For me focussing on those latter issues taking care to carry along with us those currently "less enlightened" is more likely to lead to a fairer more inclusive society in the future. Overly zealous "word policing" on relatively unimportant matters risks legitimising in the eyes of the less informed those on the right who seek to seek to argue that racism is just a load of PC "woke" nonsense.
I have absolutely no doubt that @drcongo intentions are good. Just wonder if the way he is going about it risks being counterproductive.
If people like Dr Congo were making an effort to change those words you might have a point, but he isn't, he's just saying that if certain words or phrases were deemed offensive by some communities, he'd have no problem using an alternative.
The faux culture / language war right now isn't being requested by Blm really, it's being instigated by the industries themselves to cover their own backs, or in some cases to address mistakes.
You see far more people complaining about things potentially being banned at some indefinite point in the future by an unnamed person than you do "lefties" actually calling for bans. It's a classic right wing straw man tactic
Having said earlier that I personally do not have an issue with Black/White lists as that does not have, to the best of my knowledge, racist roots the use of Master/Slave does and I would look to avoid that wherever possible.
To me it’s about employing sense and sensitivity in the right place and engaging in discussion and education about the true meanings of the phrases.
@DevC Now that I've had time to read your post properly, I've counted 7 assumptions about me which is pretty impressive, even for you. I actually agree with the general gist of what you appear to be trying to say, but it might have come across a bit clearer if you hadn't tried to use the imaginary me that lives in your head as an example.
@carrickblue The problems with black/white lists are actually probably a lot greater than master/slave terminology - the implied meaning of those list names is that black is bad, white is good. Already we're on uncomfortable ground here. However, since those terms entered widespread use, we've become a much more global species, and in many cultures, those colours have precisely the opposite meaning. So if you want your users, in every country in the world to understand what your lists do, there are probably better words that you could use without hurting anyone at all.
@ReadingMarginalista said:
Great post @OakwoodExile. The point isn't to point score and tar and feather people who unintentionally upset people with a poor choice of words, but to create a respectful environment. Bayo's statement yesterday was made in this spirit as well, but has made quite a few people defensive for some reason.
I think everyone knows the reason tbf
I agree good post by Oakwood, the problem is when there's a significant proportion of people who refuse to accept the need for change, or deliberately stay ignorant and don't engage in any conversation so they can claim a lack of malice.
How long do we give people to "learn"? Racism hasn't been acceptable for decades....
Difficult situation, but personally I'd rather the "collateral damage" be people who couldn't be bothered to keep up with what's acceptable than black / brown / any minority person who have to continue to be subject to abuse because we allow too much leeway.
The mindreading, the willingness to judge, to assume the worst possible motives of those from another group and to see them become collateral damage in the quest to have everyone see things the way you do are, I suggest, exactly the characteristics you would yourself deprecate in someone you saw as racist.
Phrases like "I think everyone knows the reason" are not true but encourage everyone into a state of groupthink for fear that to express a position that is not in lockstep with the current orthodoxy will be to be instantly put into the "other" category eligible to become collateral damage. In this way, we establish a new normal. This is not that unusual in communities - there are often changes to what we do and don't, "can" and "can't" say. However, it might seem obvious to you that it is a correct and desirable normal but you had better hope that the rules don't change again without your realising it if the price of failing to do so is that you may become collateral damage yourself and all the decent like-minded thinkers like yourself will be willing to see you go down because you "couldn't be bothered" to keep up.
Bayo's statement did indeed seem to be in the spirit indicated. He's a big boy who I imagine has had to look after himself a fair amount more than me in his life. I don't take him to be the sort to cry about mean words too often. If he was minded to share what he shared this time, I'm minded to listen and believe him when he describes the effect that it had on him.
I will not, however, make any judgements beyond that about the other people involved for the reasons given above (and many others) except to say that I'd be glad if this sort of deliberate insulting or abuse of players, whether racially motivated or not, did not happen at all. It's not nice and it is, as we saw here, upsetting. I wouldn't like it and neither would you and I don't see the need to go beyond that reason to establish why.
Nonce in this context simply means a one off, or only used once - could almost change it to “Unique” but Nonce is the word used in this context.
UK and USA separated by the same language......
It should remain a valid word in competitive Scrabble then. I must admit I was surprised at its omission from the Daily Mail's list of offensive terms that could be banned.
@HCblue said:
However, it might seem obvious to you that it is a correct and desirable normal but you had better hope that the rules don't change again without your realising it if the price of failing to do so is that you may become collateral damage yourself and all the decent like-minded thinkers like yourself will be willing to see you go down because you "couldn't be bothered" to keep up.
I'm intrigued by this bit @HCblue, I've seen this argument used a lot recently against white people speaking out in support of BLM (used as a "just you wait" kind of threat) and particularly around the idea of "cancel culture", however I don't really understand what the warning is supposed to be about. Should I not speak up for things I believe in, just in case we suddenly start living under fascist authoritarian rule and my beliefs might become heretical? If anything that possibility, to me, seems an even greater reason to speak up now. When used to try to warn against a "cancel culture" that might one day come for me, again, if I find myself living in a society where standing up for oppressed people could get me fired or "cancelled" I'm going to be wishing I'd spoken up louder.
@HCblue said:
However, it might seem obvious to you that it is a correct and desirable normal but you had better hope that the rules don't change again without your realising it if the price of failing to do so is that you may become collateral damage yourself and all the decent like-minded thinkers like yourself will be willing to see you go down because you "couldn't be bothered" to keep up.
I'm intrigued by this bit @HCblue, I've seen this argument used a lot recently against white people speaking out in support of BLM (used as a "just you wait" kind of threat) and particularly around the idea of "cancel culture", however I don't really understand what the warning is supposed to be about. Should I not speak up for things I believe in, just in case we suddenly start living under fascist authoritarian rule and my beliefs might become heretical? If anything that possibility, to me, seems an even greater reason to speak up now. When used to try to warn against a "cancel culture" that might one day come for me, again, if I find myself living in a society where standing up for oppressed people could get me fired or "cancelled" I'm going to be wishing I'd spoken up louder.
Exactly
And it's one thing holding "outdated" views, it's another airing then publicly, whether that's publishing them on social media.or shouting abuse at a football match.
If you're stupid enough to not to watch your language right now during a really public event while representing your employer, I'd ask whether that person would have the mental capacity to contribute much anyway.
Why would I be afraid? If I put my foot in it genuinely unknowingly , I'd have no problem listening to why it was wrong and changing, that's what people are asking for.
I'm not sure trying your best not to use or promote discriminatory language will ever suddenly become a dangerous position to take even under the present Cummings administration.
Just so I'm getting the correct sentiment for the current climate and keeping up to date: what is being suggested for the following car parts, slave cylinder & master cylinder? Please do not imply I am being racist as I am trying to be as PC as possible.
Don't take this as me being overly PC or a Social Justice Warrior @EwanHoosaami and I am no IT expert so cannot speak for those that are grappling with the terminology but Racism is about people not inanimate objects.
Comments
This is something I've just sent to a member of my team. It seems pretty relevant here as well
Hi xxx
I understand what you're saying about this. I think you know my position, but I'll say it again. I think we do have to constantly monitor our language and be ready to accept that things we've used for years without any intention of slighting people (and black / whitelisting is a good example of this) suddenly become "wrong". The reverse side of this is that we don't demonise people for using the "wrong" terminology or suggest that their use of it makes them a racist / sexist / homophobe / transphobe or whatever but just calmly and sensitively tell them that we've stopped using that term for the appropriate reason and that we now use xxx. Not easy, but perfectly doable as long as we recognise that what matters is people's intention and good will rather than whether they've received the latest memo from the thought police. You'll probably remember that this is why I so disliked the intranet article "xxx", because of its hectoring tone and because it was telling people off for something there was no reason they should know.
Great post @OakwoodExile. The point isn't to point score and tar and feather people who unintentionally upset people with a poor choice of words, but to create a respectful environment. Bayo's statement yesterday was made in this spirit as well, but has made quite a few people defensive for some reason.
In the seven years I've been back as a Season ticket holder and I've been at both ends of the Beechdean I have never heard any racist chants or even comments from my fellow fans toward any players or opposition fans. I cannot say the same for some clubs I've been to.
I think everyone knows the reason tbf
I agree good post by Oakwood, the problem is when there's a significant proportion of people who refuse to accept the need for change, or deliberately stay ignorant and don't engage in any conversation so they can claim a lack of malice.
How long do we give people to "learn"? Racism hasn't been acceptable for decades....
Difficult situation, but personally I'd rather the "collateral damage" be people who couldn't be bothered to keep up with what's acceptable than black / brown / any minority person who have to continue to be subject to abuse because we allow too much leeway.
@OakwoodExile
Fully understand your rationale on Black/White listing as I too am engaged on a project that uses these terms for pre-denied/pre-approved decisions. The term dates back from 1590-1610 and was further refined over the years often to refer to those “not employable” due to union activities.
We also use the word black for positives. To be in the red or in the black where red is negative and black positive.
I feel we should not avoid the use of the word black where it doesn’t have racist roots. Being black or white is neither good nor bad as far as skin tone goes. It’s a matter of fact we have different skins and should be celebrated rather than hidden/avoided. The use of black/white as descriptors in general use should be acceptable. It’s when they are used a vexatious adjectives in a derogatory fashion that they are a serious issue.
John Terry calling Anton Ferdinand a C..t was bad. It was made abhorrent by adding the adjective black whereas the use of the word black for the group who rescued a white protester during the recent protests was entirely appropriate as it served to identify the group and emphasise what was being done as a positive.
Hi @carrickblue
I understand and respect your position, although I disagree with it. But the world of IT, at least is moving against you - see this really good blog from the National Cyber Security Centre
https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/blog-post/terminology-its-not-black-and-white
@OakwoodExile
Thanks, I had been aware of such discussions.
In a previous project my use of the word Nonce, used as a descriptor to a one off cryptographic code, was questioned even though it was a term used by the US based software supplier. Nonce obviously has a different slang use in the UK.
We need to fight racism and bigotry in all forms - sexuality, sectarianism, xenophobia etc - but I’m not sure changing phrases not rooted in bigotry is the best way. As has been said many times on this thread context is everything
I chuckle to myself every time I come across the word nonce in cryptography work.
Really, really good @OakwoodExile. But having met you, I’m not surprised.
What does it mean?
I'm assuming it isn't "to check a hard drive"?
Just had a quick browse of the Fleetwood FB group , a lot of ancient thinking up in the northeast it seems.
I've seen this line of thinking a lot lately, in particular around the renaming of master/slave in database terminology and especially with "master" as the name of the primary branch in git source code repositories.
While the git master branch may never have had any roots in bigotry, what's the harm in moving to a world where nobody even has to think about whether it was or not. If that word has a negative emotional effect on some people, that is a good enough reason to change it to something that doesn't. Changing it is not going to make anyone's life worse, and is going to make some people's lives better. That's a good thing.
This is a difficult point to express so I hope it is taken in the context intended.
Bayo's post makes specific reference to taking a knee and wearing logo's etc. He quite rightly says that's all fine but if I understand him correctly he argues that we need to educate ourselves better and seek real change rather than just cosmetic change.
The danger of socially liberal white folks like @drcongo worrying about "black or white issues" or "master/slave" phraseology in IT is that we spent time and energy with** all the right intentions** worrying about these relatively unimportant issues and patting ourselves on the back when we correct them and forget to focus on the very real important issues of practical racism and racist attitudes that still exist today.
For me focussing on those latter issues taking care to carry along with us those currently "less enlightened" is more likely to lead to a fairer more inclusive society in the future. Overly zealous "word policing" on relatively unimportant matters risks legitimising in the eyes of the less informed those on the right who seek to seek to argue that racism is just a load of PC "woke" nonsense.
I have absolutely no doubt that @drcongo intentions are good. Just wonder if the way he is going about it risks being counterproductive.
Not for me as I didn't understand any of it.
If people like Dr Congo were making an effort to change those words you might have a point, but he isn't, he's just saying that if certain words or phrases were deemed offensive by some communities, he'd have no problem using an alternative.
The faux culture / language war right now isn't being requested by Blm really, it's being instigated by the industries themselves to cover their own backs, or in some cases to address mistakes.
You see far more people complaining about things potentially being banned at some indefinite point in the future by an unnamed person than you do "lefties" actually calling for bans. It's a classic right wing straw man tactic
I’m not going about anything @DevC, I’m just not clutching my pearls at the thought of changing a word to something less harmful.
@Username be careful the thought police will take that post down. Share now before etc etc etc...
Having said earlier that I personally do not have an issue with Black/White lists as that does not have, to the best of my knowledge, racist roots the use of Master/Slave does and I would look to avoid that wherever possible.
To me it’s about employing sense and sensitivity in the right place and engaging in discussion and education about the true meanings of the phrases.
@DevC Now that I've had time to read your post properly, I've counted 7 assumptions about me which is pretty impressive, even for you. I actually agree with the general gist of what you appear to be trying to say, but it might have come across a bit clearer if you hadn't tried to use the imaginary me that lives in your head as an example.
Nonce in this context simply means a one off, or only used once - could almost change it to “Unique” but Nonce is the word used in this context.
UK and USA separated by the same language......
@carrickblue The problems with black/white lists are actually probably a lot greater than master/slave terminology - the implied meaning of those list names is that black is bad, white is good. Already we're on uncomfortable ground here. However, since those terms entered widespread use, we've become a much more global species, and in many cultures, those colours have precisely the opposite meaning. So if you want your users, in every country in the world to understand what your lists do, there are probably better words that you could use without hurting anyone at all.
The mindreading, the willingness to judge, to assume the worst possible motives of those from another group and to see them become collateral damage in the quest to have everyone see things the way you do are, I suggest, exactly the characteristics you would yourself deprecate in someone you saw as racist.
Phrases like "I think everyone knows the reason" are not true but encourage everyone into a state of groupthink for fear that to express a position that is not in lockstep with the current orthodoxy will be to be instantly put into the "other" category eligible to become collateral damage. In this way, we establish a new normal. This is not that unusual in communities - there are often changes to what we do and don't, "can" and "can't" say. However, it might seem obvious to you that it is a correct and desirable normal but you had better hope that the rules don't change again without your realising it if the price of failing to do so is that you may become collateral damage yourself and all the decent like-minded thinkers like yourself will be willing to see you go down because you "couldn't be bothered" to keep up.
Bayo's statement did indeed seem to be in the spirit indicated. He's a big boy who I imagine has had to look after himself a fair amount more than me in his life. I don't take him to be the sort to cry about mean words too often. If he was minded to share what he shared this time, I'm minded to listen and believe him when he describes the effect that it had on him.
I will not, however, make any judgements beyond that about the other people involved for the reasons given above (and many others) except to say that I'd be glad if this sort of deliberate insulting or abuse of players, whether racially motivated or not, did not happen at all. It's not nice and it is, as we saw here, upsetting. I wouldn't like it and neither would you and I don't see the need to go beyond that reason to establish why.
It should remain a valid word in competitive Scrabble then. I must admit I was surprised at its omission from the Daily Mail's list of offensive terms that could be banned.
@Onlooker - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/for_the_nonce#:~:text=Prepositional phrase-,for the nonce,answer for the long term.
You should be fine
I'm intrigued by this bit @HCblue, I've seen this argument used a lot recently against white people speaking out in support of BLM (used as a "just you wait" kind of threat) and particularly around the idea of "cancel culture", however I don't really understand what the warning is supposed to be about. Should I not speak up for things I believe in, just in case we suddenly start living under fascist authoritarian rule and my beliefs might become heretical? If anything that possibility, to me, seems an even greater reason to speak up now. When used to try to warn against a "cancel culture" that might one day come for me, again, if I find myself living in a society where standing up for oppressed people could get me fired or "cancelled" I'm going to be wishing I'd spoken up louder.
Aaaah not once > @drcongo said:
Exactly
And it's one thing holding "outdated" views, it's another airing then publicly, whether that's publishing them on social media.or shouting abuse at a football match.
If you're stupid enough to not to watch your language right now during a really public event while representing your employer, I'd ask whether that person would have the mental capacity to contribute much anyway.
Why would I be afraid? If I put my foot in it genuinely unknowingly , I'd have no problem listening to why it was wrong and changing, that's what people are asking for.
I'm not sure trying your best not to use or promote discriminatory language will ever suddenly become a dangerous position to take even under the present Cummings administration.
Just so I'm getting the correct sentiment for the current climate and keeping up to date: what is being suggested for the following car parts, slave cylinder & master cylinder? Please do not imply I am being racist as I am trying to be as PC as possible.
So long as you don't call someone a "f###ing slave cylinder" I'm sure you'll be fine
I had no idea those car parts even existed, I'm not very mechanically savvy. I'd be interested to know though, a quick search didn't turn anything up.
Don't take this as me being overly PC or a Social Justice Warrior @EwanHoosaami and I am no IT expert so cannot speak for those that are grappling with the terminology but Racism is about people not inanimate objects.