@eric_plant said:
I can understand why you hate it, but I'm afraid it doesn't make it any less accurate
The argument that a person who is not sure how best to interpret a hearsay account of events and references which, I am willing to venture, no-one in this conversation has encountered before is unsure because they consciously or unconsciously support racism is not one I support.
However this was intended, at best it's grossly insensitive, at worst it's despicable. It's obviously upset Bayo, and cast a shadow over what has been a fantastic week.
Bayo has never seemed to be someone who makes a lot of public statements over racism. For him to do so now shows the effect that this remark has had on him.
Will be rooting for him even more now at Wembley. The Sky coverage of the two Fleetwood games has shown what a massive presence he is for us, and not just while the game is in progress. Would just love it if it was him who scored the winner for us on Monday.
@eric_plant said:
I can understand why you hate it, but I'm afraid it doesn't make it any less accurate
The argument that a person who is not sure how best to interpret a hearsay account of events and references which, I am willing to venture, no-one in this conversation has encountered before is unsure because they consciously or unconsciously support racism is not one I support.
The point (or one of them at least) is that very few of us on here are qualified to understand how what was said and how it was received and interpreted by the recipient (Bayo in this case).
But we MUST be respectful and understanding of how that recipient feels. Dissecting the intricacies and possible nuances of how and why it was said (and unless we were the ones who said it we can’t know for sure) is irrelevant, disrespectful and demeaning to the person who feels like they obviously do.
I’m afraid your posts on this thread are having the effect (in my opinion) of watering down the impact, which ultimately further devalues the recipient.
On a more positive note the genuine love shown for Bayo on most of that Twitter thread is inspiring. We should all feel privileged to have had him as such a vital part of our club these past few years.
Appalling. Whether whoever said it meant it as a racist slur or not, it is still crass and bloody offensive. As said above the overt equating of black players to animals was a shameful part of football and society for many years and no adult can plead ignorance to it. The perpetrator needs to take a long hard look at themselves, as should Fleetwood Town if this person is a club official or invited guest of some kind.
As for the Facebook groups, not unexpected. There’ll be some people on there who genuinely hold a belief that their ethnicity is superior to others and others who feel their “white” ethnicity is somehow at risk of being discriminated against if society changes. No doubt others who don’t want to consider that aspects of privilege and advantage have helped them achieve certain things in life.
As Bayo’s eloquent response says, education is key. It may not make a dent in the armour of the white supremicists amongst us but I have some hope that other minds may not be as closed.
Wouldn’t it be a wonderful thing if his Wycombe career went full circle? We signed him after he scored a penalty to clinch victory for Wimbledon in the play off final, can he do the same for Wycombe and sign a new contract for us?
We can dream.
@eric_plant said:
I can understand why you hate it, but I'm afraid it doesn't make it any less accurate
The argument that a person who is not sure how best to interpret a hearsay account of events and references which, I am willing to venture, no-one in this conversation has encountered before is unsure because they consciously or unconsciously support racism is not one I support.
The point (or one of them at least) is that very few of us on here are qualified to understand how what was said and how it was received and interpreted by the recipient (Bayo in this case).
But we MUST be respectful and understanding of how that recipient feels. Dissecting the intricacies and possible nuances of how and why it was said (and unless we were the ones who said it we can’t know for sure) is irrelevant, disrespectful and demeaning to the person who feels like they obviously do.
I’m afraid your posts on this thread are having the effect (in my opinion) of watering down the impact, which ultimately further devalues the recipient.
On a more positive note the genuine love shown for Bayo on most of that Twitter thread is inspiring. We should all feel privileged to have had him as such a vital part of our club these past few years.
This is nonsense. Nothing either of us has said remotely expressed or implied any disrespect for or dismissal of Bayo's perspective. To suggest otherwise would be to treat Bayo as an infantile figure with no agency of his own.
@glasshalffull said:
Wouldn’t it be a wonderful thing if his Wycombe career went full circle? We signed him after he scored a penalty to clinch victory for Wimbledon in the play off final, can he do the same for Wycombe and sign a new contract for us?
We can dream.
When he finally ends his playing career at Wycombe, wouldn't it be great if the Couhigs appointed him as President of the club. I appreciate it would mean deposing Ivor Beeks, but that wouldn't be a great loss!
@eric_plant said:
I can understand why you hate it, but I'm afraid it doesn't make it any less accurate
The argument that a person who is not sure how best to interpret a hearsay account of events and references which, I am willing to venture, no-one in this conversation has encountered before is unsure because they consciously or unconsciously support racism is not one I support.
The point (or one of them at least) is that very few of us on here are qualified to understand how what was said and how it was received and interpreted by the recipient (Bayo in this case).
But we MUST be respectful and understanding of how that recipient feels. Dissecting the intricacies and possible nuances of how and why it was said (and unless we were the ones who said it we can’t know for sure) is irrelevant, disrespectful and demeaning to the person who feels like they obviously do.
I’m afraid your posts on this thread are having the effect (in my opinion) of watering down the impact, which ultimately further devalues the recipient.
On a more positive note the genuine love shown for Bayo on most of that Twitter thread is inspiring. We should all feel privileged to have had him as such a vital part of our club these past few years.
This is nonsense. Nothing either of us has said remotely expressed or implied any disrespect for or dismissal of Bayo's perspective. To suggest otherwise would be to treat Bayo as an infantile figure with no agency of his own.
@eric_plant said:
I can understand why you hate it, but I'm afraid it doesn't make it any less accurate
The argument that a person who is not sure how best to interpret a hearsay account of events and references which, I am willing to venture, no-one in this conversation has encountered before is unsure because they consciously or unconsciously support racism is not one I support.
The point (or one of them at least) is that very few of us on here are qualified to understand how what was said and how it was received and interpreted by the recipient (Bayo in this case).
But we MUST be respectful and understanding of how that recipient feels. Dissecting the intricacies and possible nuances of how and why it was said (and unless we were the ones who said it we can’t know for sure) is irrelevant, disrespectful and demeaning to the person who feels like they obviously do.
I’m afraid your posts on this thread are having the effect (in my opinion) of watering down the impact, which ultimately further devalues the recipient.
On a more positive note the genuine love shown for Bayo on most of that Twitter thread is inspiring. We should all feel privileged to have had him as such a vital part of our club these past few years.
This is nonsense. Nothing either of us has said remotely expressed or implied any disrespect for or dismissal of Bayo's perspective. To suggest otherwise would be to treat Bayo as an infantile figure with no agency of his own.
@bookertease
Really can't see that I have been anything other than respectful. I made a point of stating that I was trying to be more understanding of the context, as I had never heard of a water buffalo being used in racist comments. I also declared that I have been the victim for first near 40 years of my existence being the 1st English born of an immigrant family, as such, have a reasonable experience of direct & indirect racism. I believe I also commented that the comment was at best crass insensitivity, given the current climate. Surely part of "education" is asking questions so that I can research to arrive at a conclusion, without the accusations that have been laid at my door? As such, I am not sure where I can be seen to "having a mare"?
As for @HCblue he is more than erudite enough for me not to speak on his behalf?
I just had a look at the Fleetwood squad. Only one BAME player (on-loan). At the risk of being branded a fanatic, I find that surprising and indeed suspicious.
@OakwoodExile said:
I just had a look at the Fleetwood squad. Only one BAME player (on-loan). At the risk of being branded a fanatic, I find that surprising and indeed suspicious.
Sorry @EwanHoosaami, I’m not trying to pick an argument with you, the point I was trying to make is really that it is not for ‘us’ to “try and be more understanding of the context.” It is about how the recipient feels about what was said (and in this case he has very eloquently stated that).
By looking beyond that, in cases like that, we are effectively saying (or run the risk of appearing to say), “ah, but what you are feeling about the insult may be entirely wrong because in North West Lancashire a Water Buffalo is a revered animal” (or whatever). It irrelevant. Any time we ask questions like that we are saying (or run the risk of appearing to say) to the recipient: “you are wrong.” By such means racism is inadvertently reinforced.
@HCblue I’m more than happy to pick an argument with you on this. Tell me where I’m wrong in the above paragraph or two.
I’d just finished watching the excellent documentary film White Riot, when I read about this.
We’ve made progress since then but my god it’s slow and always under threat.
Truly depressing.
well, fair enough @bookertease. I have tried to be as sensitive as I can with the keyboard. As you can imagine racism is a subject that is pretty close to my experiences historically and one that I am particularly salty about. Asking questions is a form of education by the answers given, which is all I was doing. I have since read the statement by Bayo & can clearly see the way he has perceived the comments. A shame, as he normally takes the "on field" chants regarding his size in his stride, so he must have felt that these comments were not delivered with the normal humour that he fends off with charm. It is now for him/WWFC & the FA to sort out and everything written by those of us mortals on here is pure conjecture.
I have met Bayo and spoken with him a few times, as @glasshalffull has stated already, if people would just see past the size of him & his skin colour, they would realise what a lovely man he is. A bit like when I used walk our old bull terrier, assumptions were made before people even asked about the dog and they couldn't have been more wrong.
Anyway, I will put this to bed, like me now and let's hope we have a glorious experience on Monday! COYB'S
@OakwoodExile said:
I just had a look at the Fleetwood squad. Only one BAME player (on-loan). At the risk of being branded a fanatic, I find that surprising and indeed suspicious.
And in a few predictably short steps we move to groundless allegations that the whole club is racist.
Yes we do. You seem as keen not to see racism as any of the SJWs on here are to see it. Odd. Just as it is odd to find an exclusively white team of professional footballers in this country in this century. It doesn't prove anything, of course it doesn't. But it absolutely legitimately raises questions.
The whole approach to combatting racism in this country is based on looking at statistical anomalies, such as BAME employees being disproportionately represented in junior roles compared with senior ones. That we take this seriously is one reason why we are, by and large, more successful in this field than, for example, France, where you're not allowed to count because everyone is a "citoyen".
The sample size of a professional football club may be relatively small, but I make absolutely no apology for noticing that Fleetwood are unusually white. It struck me on the night. And now this has happened. I've put 2 and 2 together and I think the answer may well be four, but I'm happy to wait for your abacus to catch up.
Let's see how Fleetwood respond. If they say "We are terribly sorry. We've thought about this and now realise it was a grossly insensitive remark. We unreservedly apologise", then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. If they're huffy and offended, they're racists.
"The sample size of a professional football club may be relatively small, but I make absolutely no apology for noticing that Fleetwood are unusually white."
May as well say "I recognise there's no valid basis for drawing any conclusions from this data. Here are my conclusions." Or, to put it in the alternative, what is the minimum number of black players a team could have in its squad for you not to draw an unjustified conclusion?
Sunderland: 2
Portsmouth: 3
Oxford: 4 (of whom one out on loan)
Peterborough: 11 (one out on loan)
Burton: 2
Tranmere: 7
First six teams I looked up - number of black players given.
Um, two is twice as many as one? And the average is just under 5.
I'm perfectly prepared to have this argument with you, although perhaps not tonight. I'm genuinely interested, because you seem an intelligent person - a teacher I think you once said? And you're clearly disposed to see the best in people, which is in many ways an admirable quality, , but not if it prevents you recognising malice when it's in front of your face.
In a society where we know racism to still be a massive problem, I simply do not understand why, when presented with a situation which is probably racism, you need some standard of proof more appropriate to a criminal trial before accepting that racism is, indeed, the likeliest explanation.
@glasshalffull said:
Bayo is one of the nicest guys I’ve ever met in football. When people look at him they should ignore his size and the colour of his skin and just see him as a wonderful human being.
I've had the pleasure of meeting him a few times and I totally concur with you @glasshalffull.
I began the following earlier but was distracted so the thread has moved on considerably, however, I'll continue:
I'm white skinned and as such don't (can't) have a true understanding of the black racist viewpoint. I've definitely been there (racist) without properly realizing it but I'm trying to reset my mind (without condescension) and that's leading me into a form of conflict with so many white ("I'm not a racist") friends and family, that I really now can see the depths of the problem. Too many conversations contain the word "they" and "them" for my liking. There needs to be deep systemic change here. F**k the statues, take them all down and put them into museums with explanatory placards. This issue is of historical white supremacist making and has no place in a decent 21st century integrated society.
Comments
Here is the BBC Sport report on it - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53338603
You'll need to be more specific.
Doesn't trip off the tongue, does it.
However this was intended, at best it's grossly insensitive, at worst it's despicable. It's obviously upset Bayo, and cast a shadow over what has been a fantastic week.
Bayo has never seemed to be someone who makes a lot of public statements over racism. For him to do so now shows the effect that this remark has had on him.
Will be rooting for him even more now at Wembley. The Sky coverage of the two Fleetwood games has shown what a massive presence he is for us, and not just while the game is in progress. Would just love it if it was him who scored the winner for us on Monday.
Sorry @HCblue (and @EwanHoosaami) but I agree that you are indeed having a mare.
The point (or one of them at least) is that very few of us on here are qualified to understand how what was said and how it was received and interpreted by the recipient (Bayo in this case).
But we MUST be respectful and understanding of how that recipient feels. Dissecting the intricacies and possible nuances of how and why it was said (and unless we were the ones who said it we can’t know for sure) is irrelevant, disrespectful and demeaning to the person who feels like they obviously do.
I’m afraid your posts on this thread are having the effect (in my opinion) of watering down the impact, which ultimately further devalues the recipient.
On a more positive note the genuine love shown for Bayo on most of that Twitter thread is inspiring. We should all feel privileged to have had him as such a vital part of our club these past few years.
Appalling. Whether whoever said it meant it as a racist slur or not, it is still crass and bloody offensive. As said above the overt equating of black players to animals was a shameful part of football and society for many years and no adult can plead ignorance to it. The perpetrator needs to take a long hard look at themselves, as should Fleetwood Town if this person is a club official or invited guest of some kind.
As for the Facebook groups, not unexpected. There’ll be some people on there who genuinely hold a belief that their ethnicity is superior to others and others who feel their “white” ethnicity is somehow at risk of being discriminated against if society changes. No doubt others who don’t want to consider that aspects of privilege and advantage have helped them achieve certain things in life.
As Bayo’s eloquent response says, education is key. It may not make a dent in the armour of the white supremicists amongst us but I have some hope that other minds may not be as closed.
Wouldn’t it be a wonderful thing if his Wycombe career went full circle? We signed him after he scored a penalty to clinch victory for Wimbledon in the play off final, can he do the same for Wycombe and sign a new contract for us?
We can dream.
This is nonsense. Nothing either of us has said remotely expressed or implied any disrespect for or dismissal of Bayo's perspective. To suggest otherwise would be to treat Bayo as an infantile figure with no agency of his own.
That would be epic.
When he finally ends his playing career at Wycombe, wouldn't it be great if the Couhigs appointed him as President of the club. I appreciate it would mean deposing Ivor Beeks, but that wouldn't be a great loss!
Point. Missed. Spectacularly.
Using. Too. Many. Full. Stops. Doesn't. Make. You. Right.
@bookertease
Really can't see that I have been anything other than respectful. I made a point of stating that I was trying to be more understanding of the context, as I had never heard of a water buffalo being used in racist comments. I also declared that I have been the victim for first near 40 years of my existence being the 1st English born of an immigrant family, as such, have a reasonable experience of direct & indirect racism. I believe I also commented that the comment was at best crass insensitivity, given the current climate. Surely part of "education" is asking questions so that I can research to arrive at a conclusion, without the accusations that have been laid at my door? As such, I am not sure where I can be seen to "having a mare"?
As for @HCblue he is more than erudite enough for me not to speak on his behalf?
I just had a look at the Fleetwood squad. Only one BAME player (on-loan). At the risk of being branded a fanatic, I find that surprising and indeed suspicious.
That reminds me to share this: https://theathletic.com/1394502/2019/11/21/in-2019-should-there-really-be-such-a-thing-as-an-all-white-football-team/
I don't think they've had any permanent since Nathan Pond - who was there for 15 years - left two years ago.
Sorry @EwanHoosaami, I’m not trying to pick an argument with you, the point I was trying to make is really that it is not for ‘us’ to “try and be more understanding of the context.” It is about how the recipient feels about what was said (and in this case he has very eloquently stated that).
By looking beyond that, in cases like that, we are effectively saying (or run the risk of appearing to say), “ah, but what you are feeling about the insult may be entirely wrong because in North West Lancashire a Water Buffalo is a revered animal” (or whatever). It irrelevant. Any time we ask questions like that we are saying (or run the risk of appearing to say) to the recipient: “you are wrong.” By such means racism is inadvertently reinforced.
@HCblue I’m more than happy to pick an argument with you on this. Tell me where I’m wrong in the above paragraph or two.
Already gave my thoughts on that.
I’d just finished watching the excellent documentary film White Riot, when I read about this.
We’ve made progress since then but my god it’s slow and always under threat.
Truly depressing.
well, fair enough @bookertease. I have tried to be as sensitive as I can with the keyboard. As you can imagine racism is a subject that is pretty close to my experiences historically and one that I am particularly salty about. Asking questions is a form of education by the answers given, which is all I was doing. I have since read the statement by Bayo & can clearly see the way he has perceived the comments. A shame, as he normally takes the "on field" chants regarding his size in his stride, so he must have felt that these comments were not delivered with the normal humour that he fends off with charm. It is now for him/WWFC & the FA to sort out and everything written by those of us mortals on here is pure conjecture.
I have met Bayo and spoken with him a few times, as @glasshalffull has stated already, if people would just see past the size of him & his skin colour, they would realise what a lovely man he is. A bit like when I used walk our old bull terrier, assumptions were made before people even asked about the dog and they couldn't have been more wrong.
Anyway, I will put this to bed, like me now and let's hope we have a glorious experience on Monday! COYB'S
And in a few predictably short steps we move to groundless allegations that the whole club is racist.
Where?
Yes we do. You seem as keen not to see racism as any of the SJWs on here are to see it. Odd. Just as it is odd to find an exclusively white team of professional footballers in this country in this century. It doesn't prove anything, of course it doesn't. But it absolutely legitimately raises questions.
The whole approach to combatting racism in this country is based on looking at statistical anomalies, such as BAME employees being disproportionately represented in junior roles compared with senior ones. That we take this seriously is one reason why we are, by and large, more successful in this field than, for example, France, where you're not allowed to count because everyone is a "citoyen".
The sample size of a professional football club may be relatively small, but I make absolutely no apology for noticing that Fleetwood are unusually white. It struck me on the night. And now this has happened. I've put 2 and 2 together and I think the answer may well be four, but I'm happy to wait for your abacus to catch up.
Let's see how Fleetwood respond. If they say "We are terribly sorry. We've thought about this and now realise it was a grossly insensitive remark. We unreservedly apologise", then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. If they're huffy and offended, they're racists.
"The sample size of a professional football club may be relatively small, but I make absolutely no apology for noticing that Fleetwood are unusually white."
May as well say "I recognise there's no valid basis for drawing any conclusions from this data. Here are my conclusions." Or, to put it in the alternative, what is the minimum number of black players a team could have in its squad for you not to draw an unjustified conclusion?
Sunderland: 2
Portsmouth: 3
Oxford: 4 (of whom one out on loan)
Peterborough: 11 (one out on loan)
Burton: 2
Tranmere: 7
First six teams I looked up - number of black players given.
Are we really adding up players on each side?
Awful stuff
Sorry @HCblue, are you saying those data support your thesis? Because, on the contrary, they rather support mine
It supports you if you a) believe you can draw any inferences from such numbers in a vacuum, which you can't, and b) think 2 is very different to 1.
Um, two is twice as many as one? And the average is just under 5.
I'm perfectly prepared to have this argument with you, although perhaps not tonight. I'm genuinely interested, because you seem an intelligent person - a teacher I think you once said? And you're clearly disposed to see the best in people, which is in many ways an admirable quality, , but not if it prevents you recognising malice when it's in front of your face.
In a society where we know racism to still be a massive problem, I simply do not understand why, when presented with a situation which is probably racism, you need some standard of proof more appropriate to a criminal trial before accepting that racism is, indeed, the likeliest explanation.
Here are some more fun stats about football and racism
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/soccer-commentary-is-full-of-coded-racism/
People are using this tweet - completely different context - to try and discredit Bayo. FFS.
I've had the pleasure of meeting him a few times and I totally concur with you @glasshalffull.
I began the following earlier but was distracted so the thread has moved on considerably, however, I'll continue:
I'm white skinned and as such don't (can't) have a true understanding of the black racist viewpoint. I've definitely been there (racist) without properly realizing it but I'm trying to reset my mind (without condescension) and that's leading me into a form of conflict with so many white ("I'm not a racist") friends and family, that I really now can see the depths of the problem. Too many conversations contain the word "they" and "them" for my liking. There needs to be deep systemic change here. F**k the statues, take them all down and put them into museums with explanatory placards. This issue is of historical white supremacist making and has no place in a decent 21st century integrated society.