@Chris said:
The war on Iraq was a mistake, but not responsible for the UK annual deficits. That was because of the global financial crisis in 2008
The UK runs a budget deficit most years. On average it is around 3-4%. The financial crisis in 08/09 certainly contributed to factors (like lower tax revenues) which create a deficit. But it is really misleading to say that the UK deficit is ‘because of the financial crisis’
@glasshalffull said:
I am not an expert in infectious diseases Chris and I assume that you aren’t either. I am not comfortable with people seeking to point the finger of blame at anyone, including the population of China where Covid-19 originated, until the full facts are known. The truth will come out one day and until then we should deal with the immediate problems and not be looking for scapegoats.
Sometimes it takes many many years for the Truth to come out. Arthur Scargill told the truth> @glasshalffull said:
I am not an expert in infectious diseases Chris and I assume that you aren’t either. I am not comfortable with people seeking to point the finger of blame at anyone, including the population of China where Covid-19 originated, until the full facts are known. The truth will come out one day and until then we should deal with the immediate problems and not be looking for scapegoats.
The Truth can sometimes take 30 years to come out. Arthur Scargill told his members In 1984 that Thatcher intended to decimate the coal industry with 70 pit closures, she and Macgregor fiercely denied this and said they were only looking to close 20 pits, even writing to NUM members saying that Scargill was trying to deceive them.
In 2014 papers were released that all along Thatchers planned to close 75 pits over a 3 year period.
Whether you believe Thatchers plan to de industrialised many working class communities was an economic strategy or another one of her evil ideologys to punish Labour supporting areas.
The fact remains Arthur told the Truth all along, and she and her goverment hid behind lies for many many years.
@StrongestTeam Excellent posting and thanks for the replies.
In summary then, we should, pay more tax to fund more ITU beds and spaces & the NHS in general to arrive at a better balance per capita.
Given that PPE etc has apparently a shelf life, then that will always be a problem with each pandemic, as we all clamour globally for the same things.
With regard to the lockdown timings, I've always believed that it was a sword of Damacles situation. Shut down too soon, government accused of over reacting promoting a financial crisis. Shut down too late and the current criticisms of delaying causing unnecessary deaths. Perfect timing & get slated from both sides!
Personally I would be happy to pay a bit more NI each month, IF, the funds were ring fenced & would be guaranteed to go direct to the NHS. I have always been extremely grateful to the NHS in general, as it has consistently been there for me in times of ill health. Let's be honest, whichever political party is in power, money has had a habit of being rerouted, from dodgy MPs expenses, lavish costing wallpaper for offices to spending on arms procurement for wars.
Agreed absolutely that the NHS is a bureaucratic monster & needs a complete rethink. I have had several recent illustrations of this recently with my own health needs. As an example: I have been called for an appointment with a specialist that I had already seen, then seen said consultant a few weeks later for a consultancy about a procedure that I still hadn't yet had! I have now had a letter confirming my appointment next Monday with the that same consultant which is to discuss the results of my latest procedure which was, (understandable given the circumstances), cancelled before the outbreak here!
I would prefer as an addition that all political parties jointly chase the tax dodgers, particularly corporates that earn huge profits here but avoid the taxes like they would Covid-19! That though is always going to be a pipe dream as the parties wont want to upset their financial backers. There is probably a way to do this but I suspect a lack of will.
@Username: One major reason I didn't vote for the Labour party at the last election was Diane Abbot holding such a senior position. I couldn't honestly vote for someone with a history of mental health issues, (nothing wrong with that btw), but to hold the position of Home Secretary, in charge of our National Security! Not for me, I'm afraid.
One, the claim that viral transmission is more likely in small gatherings - we're the only government on the planet to have made this claim - which was made one week before Cheltenham Festival and then never mentioned again.
Two, Matt Hancock's bare faced lies claiming that herd immunity was never a part of the government's strategy despite the fact that video evidence exists from the time saying it was.
We are at war with Eurasia and we have always been at war with Eurasia.
For the record politics is everywhere. Tory undermining of the NHS is a fact we are all aware of...the constant chirrup about massive investment is as threadbare as present constant statements that PPE is arriving where it is needed while the people who need it...say they haven't got it. There are questions to be answered to be sure but not for now while we maintain the Blitz spirit. While Corona Bozzer is putting into practice socialist policies to support the country (which must be killing the Francois, Bridgen, IDS millionaire brigade) I will keep an open mind about his future plans. He might be worried about how the nation might take the next dose of necessary 'nasty' medicine from the Cummings administration once this is over. Campbell was - and probably still is - like most advisers a lying, bullying bellend and is now a pinkish gob for hire. But see how Ed Balls who I know many people found a nasty, shouting bully in person is now cast as an amusing light-entertainment icon and Poll Tax Section 25 loving Portillo is now a jolly , pink shirted yellow corduroyed train spotter travelling the world on the BBC gravy train he tried his best to destroy when in old Ma Thatcher's government. At least Widdicombe has gone back to her true roots after Pantomime. Don't worry it won't be long before we can get back to telling the low paid that we all have to make sacrifices for the greater good and about 2030 Dyson will deliver his first ventilator...
@Chris said:
The government's handling of the crisis is disgraceful.
To be honest, if Boris Johnson himself came up with a cure for coronavirus within a week of it emerging Labour supporters would still complain it wasnt quick enough and was a disgrace.
@HolmerBlue said:
To be honest, if Boris Johnson himself came up with a cure for coronavirus within a week of it emerging Labour supporters would still complain it wasnt quick enough and was a disgrace.
There's not much chance of that is there. We're talking about a man with such disdain for science and expert opinion that he boasted on national TV of shaking hands with coronavirus patients and other, potentially critically ill patients. I wonder how many of those other patients he killed by doing that.
Oh, for some football to argue about. Posters-me included-aren’t likely to change their beliefs or opinions so I’m going to take a break from this thread.
@HolmerBlue said:
To be honest, if Boris Johnson himself came up with a cure for coronavirus within a week of it emerging Labour supporters would still complain it wasnt quick enough and was a disgrace.
There's not much chance of that is there. We're talking about a man with such disdain for science and expert opinion that he boasted on national TV of shaking hands with coronavirus patients and other, potentially critically ill patients. I wonder how many of those other patients he killed by doing that.
Our brave hero.
Really ? That really is pathetic. If other people had said stuff like that you'd have been disgusted and probably banned them.
Really ? That really is pathetic. If other people had said stuff like that you'd have been disgusted and probably banned them.
You think it's impossible for Our Brave Hero to have transmitted it to other people? My god, maybe Johnson does have some super secret science that nobody else does!
Ironically the only thing i find bearable in Johnson - his apparent liberal, non-authoritarian bias (which i think is genuine rather than part of his crafted persona) - is probably the one thing that he has led to the delays in implementing effective(ish) control measures and will almost certainly have cost many more lives.
And despite what others seem to think on here it is perfectly reasonable to criticise the governments response, actions and messaging whilst all this is going on as it may (I live in hope) energise them into improving some things that they have blatantly not managed to do well*.
This doesn't make it about political dividing lines (as we obviously will never know how a different ideology would have managed this), but it is important to ask questions and expect honest answers from our politicians tasked with leading us through this.
*There appears to be ample evidence for this, but one example being the meaningless "we have distributed 289 million pieces of PPE to the NHS in the past two days" comments from the likes of Matt Hancock which are designed to sound impressive until people probe further and you find out that 288 million of them are gloves and 72 are desperately needed gowns (the figures aren't quite right but hopefully you get the point)
I think I phrased it a bit kinder above than the Dr perhaps but it's right to say Boris isn't a hero in this or most things, at least not yet, and he was reckless, you can happily have your own opinion ....or wait 30 years to see what a heavily redacted report from an appointed source finds if that helps.
You do have to wonder about the rag headline about Boris being better so that's a really good Friday despite 1000 people dead but then again people who were disgusted by that aren't likely to be the one's who would buy it anyway.
The "hero" nonsense is all part of the "war" messaging that the government is pushing (same with Trump's people) and most of the right of centre press is happily stoking up for them. I guess it makes a mistake that could cost 250,000 lives more palatable if you can get the public to believe we're at war and we're all in it together.
@drcongo said:
The "hero" nonsense is all part of the "war" messaging that the government is pushing (same with Trump's people) and most of the right of centre press is happily stoking up for them. I guess it makes a mistake that could cost 250,000 lives more palatable if you can get the public to believe we're at war and we're all in it together.
You've used the word hero three times now without (as far as I can see anyway) anyone else using it. You seem to be using the same catchphrase method Cummins has drilled in to the PM for enforcing a point. Not sure what your point is though.
This thread really shows why politics shouldn't be used to resolve this mess and why so many seem to want to blame politics for not giving them the arbitrary goal they seem to think is best.
@Right_in_the_Middle I'm no constitutional expert but sadly I fear politicians are actually the ones who have to resolve this mess and I reckon they will still try to use politics to do it. Or water cannons. One of the two.
No. Aren't newspaper headlines scewed by political leanings anyway? Of course Johnson is going to be great in some and rubbish in the others.
Isn't surviving the virus having been in ICU a good thing for anyone?
No. Aren't newspaper headlines scewed by political leanings anyway? Of course Johnson is going to be great in some and rubbish in the others.
Isn't surviving the virus having been in ICU a good thing for anyone?
Who said Boris surviving it wasn't a good thing? Just that it isn't an achievement for Boris to be praised for, he survived despite himself, not because he "fought hard"
And the point on newspapers is that it shouldn't be like it is, or it should at least be centred in some truth, or a genuine opinion on a policy being good or bad, not "Boris' dithering has killed thousands and nearly himself, how can we possibly make this a positive."
I truly believe we need something like critical thinking and analysis to be a compulsory subject like maths and English in this hyper- information age, so many people can't process good info from bad; it's leading to dangerous demagogues in power and misinformed idiots on the streets with falsely strong opinions on things they have no understanding of from ludicrous sources
Given that PPE etc has apparently a shelf life, then that will always be a problem with each pandemic, as we all clamour globally for the same things.
Yes things will always be harder, but we should have some significant capacity for UK production in place beforehand, this was entirely predictable - not exactly now, but a major pandemic event happens every x years, the government were advised and ignored this
Also things like Drs and Nurses having already been fitted for masks, so they can at least get usable equipment when they do order it, not just buying in whatever masks they can and then finding 80% of the staff can't use them as they don't form a good enough seal.
Basic preparations which would happen if the system wasn't so severely underfunded
I did not for one minute expect our Glorious Leader not to survive his great battle as I suspect he fought it with two dedicated ITU nurses in the proper PPE with plenty of oxygen and all the machines that go ping standing by should he require them. As you could quite logically expect for the PM or the Sovereign. There are still questions to be asked about the preparedness of the NHS infrastructure as overseen by Lansley, Hunt and Hancock for the rest of us though!
No. Aren't newspaper headlines scewed by political leanings anyway? Of course Johnson is going to be great in some and rubbish in the others.
Isn't surviving the virus having been in ICU a good thing for anyone?
Who said Boris surviving it wasn't a good thing? Just that it isn't an achievement for Boris to be praised for, he survived despite himself, not because he "fought hard"
And the point on newspapers is that it shouldn't be like it is, or it should at least be centred in some truth, or a genuine opinion on a policy being good or bad, not "Boris' dithering has killed thousands and nearly himself, how can we possibly make this a positive."
I truly believe we need something like critical thinking and analysis to be a compulsory subject like maths and English in this hyper- information age, so many people can't process good info from bad; it's leading to dangerous demagogues in power and misinformed idiots on the streets with falsely strong opinions on things they have no understanding of from ludicrous sources
What interested me is that as a non newspaper reader I've missed this entire 'outrage'. Self isolation has even meant I haven't seen a headline out shopping.
I do agree with you on education. There are too many thick people around. But to add to this we have been conditioned by politicians and media outlets to being fed lies and opinions as facts. Some now take this at face value and others disbelieve everything. It's footballing equivalent is cheating players versus poor referees.
I think anyone surviving ICU for anything has fought hard. What peaked my interest on the daily press briefings was how Johnson was constantly described as still in charge and in good spirits when it was clear he was very ill. What was the point of this narrative ?
It was a tricky balancing act for - sorry to bring politics in here - the politicians. If he's poorly it may appear the government is weak without him and they will all be asked if they want the top job...but by the same token he has to be somewhat poorly to win his battle and therefore the hearts of the nation.
@Wendoverman said:
It was a tricky balancing act for - sorry to bring politics in here - the politicians. If he's poorly it may appear the government is weak without him and they will all be asked if they want the top job...but by the same token he has to be somewhat poorly to win his battle and therefore the hearts of the nation.
Not sure there's any balancing act to be had, it's not weak to say the PM is being treated and recovering for a few days, as that's what is obviously the best plan on both a human and political level no matter your leaning.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
I think anyone surviving ICU for anything has fought hard.
On this one first. It feels like a normal assumption to make, but it's not true. You can't defeat COVID-19 by being a fighter with a stiff upper lip and some solid British resolve. All the politicians and newspapers telling us that that's how Johnson survived are by extension insinuating that the 11k people who died just weren't trying hard enough. Though this is not as offensive as The S*n telling us that it was the "love" of others that got him through, thereby telling every family member of the 11k dead that they just didn't love their departed enough. I find both notions abhorrent.
What peaked my interest on the daily press briefings was how Johnson was constantly described as still in charge and in good spirits when it was clear he was very ill. What was the point of this narrative ?
Totally agree on this one. And I loved the fact that Dominic Raaaab was too thick to stick to the script and kept blurting out that he hadn't heard from the prime minister in days. Unless of course he meant Dominic Cummings.
Comments
So, precisely what do you want to happen now and how do you suggest that it would help? The PM’s resignation?
The UK runs a budget deficit most years. On average it is around 3-4%. The financial crisis in 08/09 certainly contributed to factors (like lower tax revenues) which create a deficit. But it is really misleading to say that the UK deficit is ‘because of the financial crisis’
Sometimes it takes many many years for the Truth to come out. Arthur Scargill told the truth> @glasshalffull said:
The Truth can sometimes take 30 years to come out. Arthur Scargill told his members In 1984 that Thatcher intended to decimate the coal industry with 70 pit closures, she and Macgregor fiercely denied this and said they were only looking to close 20 pits, even writing to NUM members saying that Scargill was trying to deceive them.
In 2014 papers were released that all along Thatchers planned to close 75 pits over a 3 year period.
Whether you believe Thatchers plan to de industrialised many working class communities was an economic strategy or another one of her evil ideologys to punish Labour supporting areas.
The fact remains Arthur told the Truth all along, and she and her goverment hid behind lies for many many years.
@StrongestTeam Excellent posting and thanks for the replies.
In summary then, we should, pay more tax to fund more ITU beds and spaces & the NHS in general to arrive at a better balance per capita.
Given that PPE etc has apparently a shelf life, then that will always be a problem with each pandemic, as we all clamour globally for the same things.
With regard to the lockdown timings, I've always believed that it was a sword of Damacles situation. Shut down too soon, government accused of over reacting promoting a financial crisis. Shut down too late and the current criticisms of delaying causing unnecessary deaths. Perfect timing & get slated from both sides!
Personally I would be happy to pay a bit more NI each month, IF, the funds were ring fenced & would be guaranteed to go direct to the NHS. I have always been extremely grateful to the NHS in general, as it has consistently been there for me in times of ill health. Let's be honest, whichever political party is in power, money has had a habit of being rerouted, from dodgy MPs expenses, lavish costing wallpaper for offices to spending on arms procurement for wars.
Agreed absolutely that the NHS is a bureaucratic monster & needs a complete rethink. I have had several recent illustrations of this recently with my own health needs. As an example: I have been called for an appointment with a specialist that I had already seen, then seen said consultant a few weeks later for a consultancy about a procedure that I still hadn't yet had! I have now had a letter confirming my appointment next Monday with the that same consultant which is to discuss the results of my latest procedure which was, (understandable given the circumstances), cancelled before the outbreak here!
I would prefer as an addition that all political parties jointly chase the tax dodgers, particularly corporates that earn huge profits here but avoid the taxes like they would Covid-19! That though is always going to be a pipe dream as the parties wont want to upset their financial backers. There is probably a way to do this but I suspect a lack of will.
@Username: One major reason I didn't vote for the Labour party at the last election was Diane Abbot holding such a senior position. I couldn't honestly vote for someone with a history of mental health issues, (nothing wrong with that btw), but to hold the position of Home Secretary, in charge of our National Security! Not for me, I'm afraid.
Two astonishing things about this video.
One, the claim that viral transmission is more likely in small gatherings - we're the only government on the planet to have made this claim - which was made one week before Cheltenham Festival and then never mentioned again.
Two, Matt Hancock's bare faced lies claiming that herd immunity was never a part of the government's strategy despite the fact that video evidence exists from the time saying it was.
We are at war with Eurasia and we have always been at war with Eurasia.
For the record politics is everywhere. Tory undermining of the NHS is a fact we are all aware of...the constant chirrup about massive investment is as threadbare as present constant statements that PPE is arriving where it is needed while the people who need it...say they haven't got it. There are questions to be answered to be sure but not for now while we maintain the Blitz spirit. While Corona Bozzer is putting into practice socialist policies to support the country (which must be killing the Francois, Bridgen, IDS millionaire brigade) I will keep an open mind about his future plans. He might be worried about how the nation might take the next dose of necessary 'nasty' medicine from the Cummings administration once this is over. Campbell was - and probably still is - like most advisers a lying, bullying bellend and is now a pinkish gob for hire. But see how Ed Balls who I know many people found a nasty, shouting bully in person is now cast as an amusing light-entertainment icon and Poll Tax Section 25 loving Portillo is now a jolly , pink shirted yellow corduroyed train spotter travelling the world on the BBC gravy train he tried his best to destroy when in old Ma Thatcher's government. At least Widdicombe has gone back to her true roots after Pantomime. Don't worry it won't be long before we can get back to telling the low paid that we all have to make sacrifices for the greater good and about 2030 Dyson will deliver his first ventilator...
Er...yeah that's right.
There's not much chance of that is there. We're talking about a man with such disdain for science and expert opinion that he boasted on national TV of shaking hands with coronavirus patients and other, potentially critically ill patients. I wonder how many of those other patients he killed by doing that.
Our brave hero.
Oh, for some football to argue about. Posters-me included-aren’t likely to change their beliefs or opinions so I’m going to take a break from this thread.
Really ? That really is pathetic. If other people had said stuff like that you'd have been disgusted and probably banned them.
This thread is over for me.... as others have said, people decide which way they think based on their political views regardless.
God I wish there was some football for us to talk about.
You think it's impossible for Our Brave Hero to have transmitted it to other people? My god, maybe Johnson does have some super secret science that nobody else does!
Ironically the only thing i find bearable in Johnson - his apparent liberal, non-authoritarian bias (which i think is genuine rather than part of his crafted persona) - is probably the one thing that he has led to the delays in implementing effective(ish) control measures and will almost certainly have cost many more lives.
And despite what others seem to think on here it is perfectly reasonable to criticise the governments response, actions and messaging whilst all this is going on as it may (I live in hope) energise them into improving some things that they have blatantly not managed to do well*.
This doesn't make it about political dividing lines (as we obviously will never know how a different ideology would have managed this), but it is important to ask questions and expect honest answers from our politicians tasked with leading us through this.
*There appears to be ample evidence for this, but one example being the meaningless "we have distributed 289 million pieces of PPE to the NHS in the past two days" comments from the likes of Matt Hancock which are designed to sound impressive until people probe further and you find out that 288 million of them are gloves and 72 are desperately needed gowns (the figures aren't quite right but hopefully you get the point)
I think it was three hundred thousand and thirty four, nine hundred and seventy four thousand @bookertease
I think I phrased it a bit kinder above than the Dr perhaps but it's right to say Boris isn't a hero in this or most things, at least not yet, and he was reckless, you can happily have your own opinion ....or wait 30 years to see what a heavily redacted report from an appointed source finds if that helps.
You do have to wonder about the rag headline about Boris being better so that's a really good Friday despite 1000 people dead but then again people who were disgusted by that aren't likely to be the one's who would buy it anyway.
The "hero" nonsense is all part of the "war" messaging that the government is pushing (same with Trump's people) and most of the right of centre press is happily stoking up for them. I guess it makes a mistake that could cost 250,000 lives more palatable if you can get the public to believe we're at war and we're all in it together.
You've used the word hero three times now without (as far as I can see anyway) anyone else using it. You seem to be using the same catchphrase method Cummins has drilled in to the PM for enforcing a point. Not sure what your point is though.
This thread really shows why politics shouldn't be used to resolve this mess and why so many seem to want to blame politics for not giving them the arbitrary goal they seem to think is best.
@Right_in_the_Middle Have you not seen any newspaper front pages for the last week?
Also, in what way is not dying, or indeed, not being one of an unnecessary quarter of a million deaths, an "arbitrary goal"?
@Right_in_the_Middle I'm no constitutional expert but sadly I fear politicians are actually the ones who have to resolve this mess and I reckon they will still try to use politics to do it. Or water cannons. One of the two.
No. Aren't newspaper headlines scewed by political leanings anyway? Of course Johnson is going to be great in some and rubbish in the others.
Isn't surviving the virus having been in ICU a good thing for anyone?
The first goal is just for you. The other is just a figure. And everyone will have a different view based on what is happening to them.
Who said Boris surviving it wasn't a good thing? Just that it isn't an achievement for Boris to be praised for, he survived despite himself, not because he "fought hard"
And the point on newspapers is that it shouldn't be like it is, or it should at least be centred in some truth, or a genuine opinion on a policy being good or bad, not "Boris' dithering has killed thousands and nearly himself, how can we possibly make this a positive."
I truly believe we need something like critical thinking and analysis to be a compulsory subject like maths and English in this hyper- information age, so many people can't process good info from bad; it's leading to dangerous demagogues in power and misinformed idiots on the streets with falsely strong opinions on things they have no understanding of from ludicrous sources
Yes things will always be harder, but we should have some significant capacity for UK production in place beforehand, this was entirely predictable - not exactly now, but a major pandemic event happens every x years, the government were advised and ignored this
Also things like Drs and Nurses having already been fitted for masks, so they can at least get usable equipment when they do order it, not just buying in whatever masks they can and then finding 80% of the staff can't use them as they don't form a good enough seal.
Basic preparations which would happen if the system wasn't so severely underfunded
I did not for one minute expect our Glorious Leader not to survive his great battle as I suspect he fought it with two dedicated ITU nurses in the proper PPE with plenty of oxygen and all the machines that go ping standing by should he require them. As you could quite logically expect for the PM or the Sovereign. There are still questions to be asked about the preparedness of the NHS infrastructure as overseen by Lansley, Hunt and Hancock for the rest of us though!
What interested me is that as a non newspaper reader I've missed this entire 'outrage'. Self isolation has even meant I haven't seen a headline out shopping.
I do agree with you on education. There are too many thick people around. But to add to this we have been conditioned by politicians and media outlets to being fed lies and opinions as facts. Some now take this at face value and others disbelieve everything. It's footballing equivalent is cheating players versus poor referees.
I think anyone surviving ICU for anything has fought hard. What peaked my interest on the daily press briefings was how Johnson was constantly described as still in charge and in good spirits when it was clear he was very ill. What was the point of this narrative ?
It was a tricky balancing act for - sorry to bring politics in here - the politicians. If he's poorly it may appear the government is weak without him and they will all be asked if they want the top job...but by the same token he has to be somewhat poorly to win his battle and therefore the hearts of the nation.
Not sure there's any balancing act to be had, it's not weak to say the PM is being treated and recovering for a few days, as that's what is obviously the best plan on both a human and political level no matter your leaning.
It's just a question of lying or not.
Boris getting it, after some of the other experts too, served as a huge incentive for most people to stay at home didn't it.
It was a collective "bloody hell, the PM has this, it really is serious, and not just random statistics" to all but the hardest of thinking.
On this one first. It feels like a normal assumption to make, but it's not true. You can't defeat COVID-19 by being a fighter with a stiff upper lip and some solid British resolve. All the politicians and newspapers telling us that that's how Johnson survived are by extension insinuating that the 11k people who died just weren't trying hard enough. Though this is not as offensive as The S*n telling us that it was the "love" of others that got him through, thereby telling every family member of the 11k dead that they just didn't love their departed enough. I find both notions abhorrent.
Totally agree on this one. And I loved the fact that Dominic Raaaab was too thick to stick to the script and kept blurting out that he hadn't heard from the prime minister in days. Unless of course he meant Dominic Cummings.