@glasshalffull said:
That’s your opinion, I was brought up in Liverpool and still visit the city regularly so I think I have a valid opinion as well.
This is all a bit ironic considering Liverpool as a city has been derided by the same kinds of people that you're defending as the ultimate snowflake city. As implied by the dreadful 'always the victims, its never your fault' chant, which gets chanted frequently - most embarrassingly by Chelsea after Liverpool unveiled a Justice for Grenfell banner at Stamford Bridge last season. The implication being of course that people from Liverpool are so easily offended by everything. Clearly the people with such brilliant senses of humour that you are defending don't share your perception about Liverpudlians.
@glasshalffull said:
Speaking as a born and bred scouser, I am pretty certain that not many citizens of Liverpool world be offended by these references because they have a sense of humour and self deprecating jokes are an everyday occurrence in that part of the world. Sadly, that’s not the case everywhere as this thread has shown.
Great point. You certainly never take offence at any comments made to you.
@glasshalffull said:
Speaking as a born and bred scouser, I am pretty certain that not many citizens of Liverpool world be offended by these references because they have a sense of humour and self deprecating jokes are an everyday occurrence in that part of the world. Sadly, that’s not the case everywhere as this thread has shown.
Great point. You certainly never take offence at any comments made to you.
Just to be clear to the usual antagonists, I said I don’t take offence to jokes made about me coming from Liverpool. That doesn’t mean that I don’t take offence to anything that’s said or written.
@glasshalffull said:
Just to be clear to the usual antagonists, I said I don’t take offence to jokes made about me coming from Liverpool. That doesn’t mean that I don’t take offence to anything that’s said or written.
Will you be stood behind the goal at tranmere singing about signing on?
That and "We pay your benefits" are just absolutely rotten. I'm far too young to remember when they were more 'relevant', but they're not funny now and I can't imagine they were then... I'd love someone to stick a mic in front of that contingent and ask them to explain why they're chanting it.
@glasshalffull said:
Just to be clear to the usual antagonists, I said I don’t take offence to jokes made about me coming from Liverpool. That doesn’t mean that I don’t take offence to anything that’s said or written.
Will you be stood behind the goal at tranmere singing about signing on?
We'll soon be able to sing 'One job between yer...' at most grounds. Obviously I am in the boring beechdean surrounded by various people of various ages (YES various ages in the bloody Beechdean) people who travel who I would be very surprised to hear call anyone a ***. It's a wince-inducing thing when the children are barking at the beginning or end of a match outside but it isn't going away. Hopefully they'll soon find their dads pot and spend the afternoons staring at the patterns on the wallpaper and eating chocolate instead...but there will be more along behind them and a few middle-aged weekend warriors geeing them up. So it will always be as we saw with some recent Twitter headbutters and ainsworth abusers. As has been noted we're not Nazi s yet. And I'm proud to say I've never heard anything racist at Adam's park.(I Did not go to the wombles match but I found the AFC norbiton chant as reported funny. This in no way is an endorsement of poor efl practices!)
@glasshalffull said:
Just to be clear to the usual antagonists, I said I don’t take offence to jokes made about me coming from Liverpool. That doesn’t mean that I don’t take offence to anything that’s said or written.
Will you be stood behind the goal at tranmere singing about signing on?
What a stupid question.
Why? Some will and you are arguing its all happy banter.
I didn’t say it was happy banter, I said I doubted if the majority of Liverpudlians would be that offended by it.
I don’t remember howls of protest from Merseyside when Harry Enfield invented his track suit scousers. Most Liverpudlians I know thought it was very funny.
@Chris said:
Terrible and inapt analogies are one thing, but is there any need for dated regionalism like people from Liverpool are car thieves?
You've really jumped to a false conclusion there. My Dad is a born-and-bred Scouser and I regularly visit the city to see family. You regularly get kids asking to "mind your car". Its not a stereotype or insult about car theft at all. Just an illustration of a point the original poster was trying to make.
And the suggestions that we should be more like St Pauli are just absurd. We've had implications that Wycombe fans using the word "snowflake" are subtly encouraging an alt-right ideology. So instead let's follow the example of perhaps the most politicised club in world football...
@Chris said:
Terrible and inapt analogies are one thing, but is there any need for dated regionalism like people from Liverpool are car thieves?
You've really jumped to a false conclusion there. My Dad is a born-and-bred Scouser and I regularly visit the city to see family. You regularly get kids asking to "mind your car". Its not a stereotype or insult about car theft at all. Just an illustration of a point the original poster was trying to make.
I’d be interested to know if your dad is offended by the age old jokes about scousers being work shy or petty thieves.
@WanderingDays said:
And the suggestions that we should be more like St Pauli are just absurd. We've had implications that Wycombe fans using the word "snowflake" are subtly encouraging an alt-right ideology. So instead let's follow the example of perhaps the most politicised club in world football...
St. Pauli are politicised in a positive way, though.
@WanderingDays said:
And the suggestions that we should be more like St Pauli are just absurd. We've had implications that Wycombe fans using the word "snowflake" are subtly encouraging an alt-right ideology. So instead let's follow the example of perhaps the most politicised club in world football...
Nobody has said that football fans can't be political, so I'm not sure who you're arguing against. Unless you think being alt-right is the moral equivalent of being anti-racist, which would be strange...
@Chris said:
Terrible and inapt analogies are one thing, but is there any need for dated regionalism like people from Liverpool are car thieves?
You've really jumped to a false conclusion there. My Dad is a born-and-bred Scouser and I regularly visit the city to see family. You regularly get kids asking to "mind your car". Its not a stereotype or insult about car theft at all. Just an illustration of a point the original poster was trying to make.
I live less than twenty miles from Liverpool, I travel there a lot (in the last two weeks I’ve been there for both work and for leisure.) I’ve never had anyone ask to mind my car, and the implication of that statement is pretty clear to me.
@Chris said:
Terrible and inapt analogies are one thing, but is there any need for dated regionalism like people from Liverpool are car thieves?
You've really jumped to a false conclusion there. My Dad is a born-and-bred Scouser and I regularly visit the city to see family. You regularly get kids asking to "mind your car". Its not a stereotype or insult about car theft at all. Just an illustration of a point the original poster was trying to make.
I’d be interested to know if your dad is offended by the age old jokes about scousers being work shy or petty thieves.
He's very much someone who laughs off those stereotypes and is more than willing to give it back to the person saying it. As you admit yourself, he very often self-deprecates about his own origins!
I've never seen him get offended about jokes like that at all, unless he feels he is being actively discriminated against (or if the person clearly strongly holds and believes in their prejudices, rather than simply making a joke). In fact, as a working class boy growing up in 1970s/80s Tuebrook/Kensington he's told me all sorts of stories from his childhood and early adulthood which seem to somewhat back up some of the impressions - although they are of course exaggerated caricatures.
Personally - although not a Scouser myself - I absolutely love the city and feel a very strong connection to it. I've never found the Harry Enfield type stereotypes anything but light-hearted "banter" (which of course implicitly makes me a fascist)
My head is now spinning with thoughts of the complex and nuanced debates our vocal element must be having when choosing whether to abuse Wally Downes. The poor things must be exhausted by the end of a match.
I thought the 'car minding' thing was only when parking for the football. I've come across it, but it was Manchester rather than Liverpool (v. Man City - our League Cup game at the old Maine Road ground). I accidentally dropped a pound coin when rummaging around for some change to give them, and the kids battled for it as a flock of seagulls would fight for a discarded chip. It was quite an amusing sight, the kids were good humoured, and the car was still there after the game.
I’d be interested to know if your dad is offended by the age old jokes about scousers being work shy or petty thieves.
He's very much someone who laughs off those stereotypes and is more than willing to give it back to the person saying it. As you admit yourself, he very often self-deprecates about his own origins!
I've never seen him get offended about jokes like that at all, unless he feels he is being actively discriminated against (or if the person clearly strongly holds and believes in their prejudices, rather than simply making a joke). In fact, as a working class boy growing up in 1970s/80s Tuebrook/Kensington he's told me all sorts of stories from his childhood and early adulthood which seem to somewhat back up some of the impressions - although they are of course exaggerated caricatures.
Personally - although not a Scouser myself - I absolutely love the city and feel a very strong connection to it. I've never found the Harry Enfield type stereotypes anything but light-hearted "banter" (which of course implicitly makes me a fascist)
You’ve made my day with this post. Some people take themselves far too seriously and look for hidden meanings to reinforce their own prejudices. Scousers don’t need anyone to feel offended on their behalf, they’ll treat ‘insults’ in the context in which they’re delivered and are more than capable of standing up for themselves if they feel the ‘banter’ has a more sinister tone.
@WanderingDays said:
And the suggestions that we should be more like St Pauli are just absurd. We've had implications that Wycombe fans using the word "snowflake" are subtly encouraging an alt-right ideology. So instead let's follow the example of perhaps the most politicised club in world football...
St. Pauli are politicised in a positive way, though.
Well that surely depends on whether you believe the simplistic dichotomy that left = good/positive, anything else = bad/negative?
Regardless, posters such as yourself have suggested that Wycombe aren't tapping into a significant proportion of our potential fan base because of chants like "I'll let you shag my wife" and using the word snowflake. If you think that taking a strong political attitude as a club won't alienate large portions of our potential local fanbase - but the above chants and Twitter activity will - then I don't know where to start
I appreciate that you want to make the club a more family-friendly place - and I absolutely love your articles and website (best Wycombe journalism I've ever seen) - but I very much disagree with you on this issue.
Hope that makes sense, and I've explained it more eloquently than the guys on Twitter saying you aren't much fun at parties, etc?
@WanderingDays What I really mean is I think it's positive in the sense that it actively promotes inclusivity and diversity - I don't see how that can be construed as anything other than a good thing.
I don't think the club necessarily needs to do anything, but I do think it's healthy for fans to at least challenge certain behaviour and have these debates.
And thanks! Glad to hear it's going down well. And yeah, as I say in that piece, disagree with me all you like, but I think we can all agree that there's a right way to go about that.
If its not appropriate (quite rightly) to make generalisations about black people, or Islamic people or gay people, it surely isn't right to make generalisations about people hailing from one city. No doubt some scousers are "salt of the earth" characters, no doubt some others are right knobs.
I do like how the Gasroom does occasionally excel it the quality and reasonableness of its debates.
I agree that “banter/bantz” in its current use can be a horrible word that is, more often than not, used to defend the indefensible - language used with the intent to cause offence and distress and place the speaker (in their own exalted opinion) above the target of their (non) witticism.
“Snowflake” on the other hand I like as to me it does define an element of sensibility and attitude. Alt. Right commentators do seem to use it to sneer at such views but I’m not convinced anyone outside that ilk sees it as necessarily an insult.
I have no idea whether we do have this or not, but as a club I would hope we have an expectation on our fans to behave in a reasonable way and should make it clear where we consider these lines of acceptable language and behaviour are drawn.
When individuals breach these we should have a transparent and fair way of addressing this, with perhaps warnings, leading to the odd single game ban, leading to perhaps longer (but time-limited) bans. (Of course giving due consideration to the maturity of any fans involved).
What I don’t believe should be acceptable is saying that: “oh it’s football. Everyone else does it do why should we change?”
Comments
This is all a bit ironic considering Liverpool as a city has been derided by the same kinds of people that you're defending as the ultimate snowflake city. As implied by the dreadful 'always the victims, its never your fault' chant, which gets chanted frequently - most embarrassingly by Chelsea after Liverpool unveiled a Justice for Grenfell banner at Stamford Bridge last season. The implication being of course that people from Liverpool are so easily offended by everything. Clearly the people with such brilliant senses of humour that you are defending don't share your perception about Liverpudlians.
Eh eh caaaalm down.
Great point. You certainly never take offence at any comments made to you.
Would that everyone could follow your example
Yes. Shut up, Alan, and let these people be offended on your behalf.
POTD
Exactly. No offence taken!
Just to be clear to the usual antagonists, I said I don’t take offence to jokes made about me coming from Liverpool. That doesn’t mean that I don’t take offence to anything that’s said or written.
Will you be stood behind the goal at tranmere singing about signing on?
That and "We pay your benefits" are just absolutely rotten. I'm far too young to remember when they were more 'relevant', but they're not funny now and I can't imagine they were then... I'd love someone to stick a mic in front of that contingent and ask them to explain why they're chanting it.
What a stupid question.
We'll soon be able to sing 'One job between yer...' at most grounds. Obviously I am in the boring beechdean surrounded by various people of various ages (YES various ages in the bloody Beechdean) people who travel who I would be very surprised to hear call anyone a ***. It's a wince-inducing thing when the children are barking at the beginning or end of a match outside but it isn't going away. Hopefully they'll soon find their dads pot and spend the afternoons staring at the patterns on the wallpaper and eating chocolate instead...but there will be more along behind them and a few middle-aged weekend warriors geeing them up. So it will always be as we saw with some recent Twitter headbutters and ainsworth abusers. As has been noted we're not Nazi s yet. And I'm proud to say I've never heard anything racist at Adam's park.(I Did not go to the wombles match but I found the AFC norbiton chant as reported funny. This in no way is an endorsement of poor efl practices!)
Why? Some will and you are arguing its all happy banter.
I didn’t say it was happy banter, I said I doubted if the majority of Liverpudlians would be that offended by it.
I don’t remember howls of protest from Merseyside when Harry Enfield invented his track suit scousers. Most Liverpudlians I know thought it was very funny.
You've really jumped to a false conclusion there. My Dad is a born-and-bred Scouser and I regularly visit the city to see family. You regularly get kids asking to "mind your car". Its not a stereotype or insult about car theft at all. Just an illustration of a point the original poster was trying to make.
And the suggestions that we should be more like St Pauli are just absurd. We've had implications that Wycombe fans using the word "snowflake" are subtly encouraging an alt-right ideology. So instead let's follow the example of perhaps the most politicised club in world football...
I’d be interested to know if your dad is offended by the age old jokes about scousers being work shy or petty thieves.
St. Pauli are politicised in a positive way, though.
Nobody has said that football fans can't be political, so I'm not sure who you're arguing against. Unless you think being alt-right is the moral equivalent of being anti-racist, which would be strange...
I live less than twenty miles from Liverpool, I travel there a lot (in the last two weeks I’ve been there for both work and for leisure.) I’ve never had anyone ask to mind my car, and the implication of that statement is pretty clear to me.
He's very much someone who laughs off those stereotypes and is more than willing to give it back to the person saying it. As you admit yourself, he very often self-deprecates about his own origins!
I've never seen him get offended about jokes like that at all, unless he feels he is being actively discriminated against (or if the person clearly strongly holds and believes in their prejudices, rather than simply making a joke). In fact, as a working class boy growing up in 1970s/80s Tuebrook/Kensington he's told me all sorts of stories from his childhood and early adulthood which seem to somewhat back up some of the impressions - although they are of course exaggerated caricatures.
Personally - although not a Scouser myself - I absolutely love the city and feel a very strong connection to it. I've never found the Harry Enfield type stereotypes anything but light-hearted "banter" (which of course implicitly makes me a fascist)
I've covered the main point of this thread in my match breakdown here: https://chairboyscentral.com/2019/09/02/light-dark-blue-monday-afc-wimbledon-0-0-wycombe/
My head is now spinning with thoughts of the complex and nuanced debates our vocal element must be having when choosing whether to abuse Wally Downes. The poor things must be exhausted by the end of a match.
I thought the 'car minding' thing was only when parking for the football. I've come across it, but it was Manchester rather than Liverpool (v. Man City - our League Cup game at the old Maine Road ground). I accidentally dropped a pound coin when rummaging around for some change to give them, and the kids battled for it as a flock of seagulls would fight for a discarded chip. It was quite an amusing sight, the kids were good humoured, and the car was still there after the game.
You’ve made my day with this post. Some people take themselves far too seriously and look for hidden meanings to reinforce their own prejudices. Scousers don’t need anyone to feel offended on their behalf, they’ll treat ‘insults’ in the context in which they’re delivered and are more than capable of standing up for themselves if they feel the ‘banter’ has a more sinister tone.
Well that surely depends on whether you believe the simplistic dichotomy that left = good/positive, anything else = bad/negative?
Regardless, posters such as yourself have suggested that Wycombe aren't tapping into a significant proportion of our potential fan base because of chants like "I'll let you shag my wife" and using the word snowflake. If you think that taking a strong political attitude as a club won't alienate large portions of our potential local fanbase - but the above chants and Twitter activity will - then I don't know where to start
I appreciate that you want to make the club a more family-friendly place - and I absolutely love your articles and website (best Wycombe journalism I've ever seen) - but I very much disagree with you on this issue.
Hope that makes sense, and I've explained it more eloquently than the guys on Twitter saying you aren't much fun at parties, etc?
@WanderingDays What I really mean is I think it's positive in the sense that it actively promotes inclusivity and diversity - I don't see how that can be construed as anything other than a good thing.
I don't think the club necessarily needs to do anything, but I do think it's healthy for fans to at least challenge certain behaviour and have these debates.
And thanks! Glad to hear it's going down well. And yeah, as I say in that piece, disagree with me all you like, but I think we can all agree that there's a right way to go about that.
If its not appropriate (quite rightly) to make generalisations about black people, or Islamic people or gay people, it surely isn't right to make generalisations about people hailing from one city. No doubt some scousers are "salt of the earth" characters, no doubt some others are right knobs.
Incidentally `Plymouth (yes I know) had an incident of homophobic chanting at the weekend and have responded https://www.pafc.co.uk/news/2019/september/statement-september-2-2019/
We are not alone.
I do like how the Gasroom does occasionally excel it the quality and reasonableness of its debates.
I agree that “banter/bantz” in its current use can be a horrible word that is, more often than not, used to defend the indefensible - language used with the intent to cause offence and distress and place the speaker (in their own exalted opinion) above the target of their (non) witticism.
“Snowflake” on the other hand I like as to me it does define an element of sensibility and attitude. Alt. Right commentators do seem to use it to sneer at such views but I’m not convinced anyone outside that ilk sees it as necessarily an insult.
I have no idea whether we do have this or not, but as a club I would hope we have an expectation on our fans to behave in a reasonable way and should make it clear where we consider these lines of acceptable language and behaviour are drawn.
When individuals breach these we should have a transparent and fair way of addressing this, with perhaps warnings, leading to the odd single game ban, leading to perhaps longer (but time-limited) bans. (Of course giving due consideration to the maturity of any fans involved).
What I don’t believe should be acceptable is saying that: “oh it’s football. Everyone else does it do why should we change?”