Not remotely. There's no comparison between attitudes to these matters now and then (though football is notably relatively unreconstructed by comparison with other areas of life).
@th100 said: @HCblue I think most other sports - although perhaps not all - are much more inclusive than football. Football still has huge problems with racism, homophobia and the like, and if it can't combat that then it's not going to combat anything lower level. Appreciate I'm maybe going a bit off topic here!
Rather than going off topic, I think this post actually nails it. I find “banter” to be the most toxic word in the English language, a free-pass to the simple minded, “Lad Bible” culture that’s grown out of 4chan and gamergate and fuelled the rise of the far right. While I’m not saying these idiots are nazis, they couch everything they say and do in the same language - found several tweets calling Chairboys Central a “snowflake” and telling him to “lighten up, it’s just bantz” - the exact playbook of the “alt” right. It’s worth reading up on how people on 4chan and 8chan groom disaffected young white men into extremist ideologies, including through the use of this language.
There are plenty of football clubs around the world who have made a stand against this kind of thing and created an identity through doing so. An identity worth supporting in its own right. St Pauli in Germany being the most obvious, famously has the highest proportion of women supporters in the country, and not by accident. As long as Wycombe tacitly support this behaviour by not condemning it, there’s a number of potential fans who we are never going to attract. The idea that Wycombe’s identity is that of “family club” is frankly nonsense, we’re no more family friendly than 91 other league clubs, half of whom also think that’s their identity.
Yes we’ve come a long way since the 70s and 80s, but that doesn’t mean we should stop moving in the right direction.
@drcongo I have found myself wondering what it really means to be a family club. Also, rather than a "family club", why not an "inclusive club"? In fact, why even have the label at all? All clubs should be striving to foster the same kind of atmosphere, to the point that they don't need to wear it as a badge of honour.
St. Pauli are brilliant; I've got to get to a game out there. There was an interesting piece on the not dissimilar Union Berlin the programme yesterday.
Alternatively, @drcongo, "snowflake" is a word that has found its way into common currency among young people while, similarly, saying "bantz" operates as accurately as an identifier of alt-right sympathies as does breathing in and out.
I agree that Wycombe is no more family-friendly than most other clubs but that's not necessarily a bad thing since it indicates that most clubs are perfectly welcoming places to visit these days - Wycombe certainly is, is it not? - nor an indicator of significant undertones to the sort of mindless chanting that, to me, signifies nothing more sinister than either misjudged humour or alien-to-me but not especially disquieting tone-deafness and insensitivity to the feelings of others, though the mob mentality we discussed earlier potentially does a fair job of explaining it.
I'm not at all against encouraging better behaviour and less aggressive and rude chanting at matches - why not encourage a generous spirit? - but it is not clear to me that there is a constituency of potential fans that are put off by the knowledge or even suggestion that Wycombe is somehow an unpleasant place to visit nor that there is any particular reason that they would be. I know a number of families from my extremely patrician and gentrified school that come to watch Wycombe and do so happily and without negative experiences from other fans.
We have come a long way since the '70s and no-one is suggesting the job is done but there is little evidence that there is a problem at Wycombe that needs to be catastrophized. The condemnatory language you suggest the club might apply seems wholly inapt for this situation.
I don’t really want to get involved in this highbrow debate save to say that anyone who thinks we have a serious problem with crowd behaviour at Wycombe has obviously not visited many other grounds and have certainly never been to Millwall!
@HCblue Yes, I agree that it’s not something that needs to be catastrophised, and isn’t even a particularly bad problem at Wycombe, but I do believe it could be better and I also believe that there’s a very specific section of our fans who aren’t able to work out that they’re essentially a mouthpiece for the alt right, parroting the language that they’re picking up from those roots. It’s not that long ago that one of them was tweeting highly offensive words at Gareth Ainsworth and defending his mate’s abuse of Pierre during the ketchup incident.
I strongly disagree with the political/ ideological connection: there's nothing new or alt-right about singing or shouting rude things at football - it's nothing to do with political leanings. But I strongly agree with your other sentiments.
20 or 30 years ago Jim Davidson would attack people who didn’t like his racism by calling them “politically correct” and “do gooders”. Now, people who hold abhorrent views call anyone who calls them out on it a “snowflake” and pass off hate, misogyny, homophobia etc. as “banter”. We were right to oppose Davidson and his ilk, and we’ll still be right to have stood up to its modern day successor.
Sometimes the word "snowflake" is apt to describe censorious and/or over-sensitive behaviour and sometimes it's a shield used by someone who would do better to consider the criticism being offered. I don't see a particular need to worry it's a sign that young Wycombe fans are being pulled into fascism.
I’m often accused of “seeing something that just isn’t there” @HCblue, and while that might be the case, that accusation was a common one against people who warned about what was happening on the chan sites, before white supremacists started posting their manifestos on those sites immediately before going out and murdering a lot of people. Normalising the language born on 8chan is, in my opinion, dangerous.
I just find it all a bit aggressive. Normally I'd doubt whether people like that on Twitter would act the same in real life, but I think these 'lads' would - well, we see that they do. It's a real problem. I can totally see why people might find it intimidating.
@drcongo said:
I’m often accused of “seeing something that just isn’t there” @HCblue, and while that might be the case, that accusation was a common one against people who warned about what was happening on the chan sites, before white supremacists started posting their manifestos on those sites immediately before going out and murdering a lot of people. Normalising the language born on 8chan is, in my opinion, dangerous.
I don't really understand why you are focusing on a potential link with extreme political ideology when the words "snowflake", whatever its origins, and "bantz" are now in common use among many people, including - especially, even - young ones of no particular political persuasion.
This is possibly where we disagree, to me, the origins are important. If someone is not smart enough to work out why they’ve been handed this insult to use against people who believe in inclusivity then they’re probably credulous enough to take on anything else.
@NewburyWanderer said: @2au7pusb Where have you come from all of a sudden? Are you on a wind-up? 'pusb', are you actually a Coventry fan?
Hello Newbury Wanderer. Yes, these are my first posts on the Gasroom, but I've been a Wycombe fan since 13 years of age. Believe it or not there are some Wycombe fans who don't actually post on here!
I'm afraid I'm being serious. My username is a random bunch of letters I bashed in last night. The 'pusb' is a random coincidence. I can assure you that I'm not an undercover agent sent by Coventry City to sabotage the harmony of the Wycombe support.
@NewburyWanderer said: @2au7pusb Where have you come from all of a sudden? Are you on a wind-up? 'pusb', are you actually a Coventry fan?
Hello Newbury Wanderer. Yes, these are my first posts on the Gasroom, but I've been a Wycombe fan since 13 years of age. Believe it or not there are some Wycombe fans who don't actually post on here!
I'm afraid I'm being serious. My username is a random bunch of letters I bashed in last night. The 'pusb' is a random coincidence. I can assure you that I'm not an undercover agent sent by Coventry City to sabotage the harmony of the Wycombe support.
Apologies for the tone of my post. I wrote it rather hastily having only read one or two of yours. This thread has greatly expanded since then. I'll have to make time to read it all, hopefully tomorrow.
@drcongo said:
This is possibly where we disagree, to me, the origins are important. If someone is not smart enough to work out why they’ve been handed this insult to use against people who believe in inclusivity then they’re probably credulous enough to take on anything else.
Talking of credulity, are you sure you're not spending too much time thinking about the etymology of a couple of now common words? By way of a terrible and inapt analogy, I've just spent two weeks in India. There, I saw any number of swastikas, albeit oriented the other way round. Should I be concerned about the country's future direction?
A further, slightly better, analogy: that German team - Dortmund? - that sings "You'll never walk alone". If I go to a match there, should I expect to have a couple of kids offer to "watch" my car for me when I park and for the locals to be fans of the Beatles and speak in a thick accent?
@HCblue said:
Well if you thought it was remotely intended as a serious representation of Liverpudlians, you'd win the credulity prize out of all of us, @chris.
Its just dull, it has been for 30 years.oh, and it's got nothing to do with us v them. And our lot will be singing about crap like that at Tranmere and most people will cringe.
Speaking as a born and bred scouser, I am pretty certain that not many citizens of Liverpool world be offended by these references because they have a sense of humour and self deprecating jokes are an everyday occurrence in that part of the world. Sadly, that’s not the case everywhere as this thread has shown.
@glasshalffull said:
Speaking as a born and bred scouser, I am pretty certain that not many citizens of Liverpool world be offended by these references because they have a sense of humour and self deprecating jokes are an everyday occurrence in that part of the world. Sadly, that’s not the case everywhere as this thread has shown.
Self deprecating humour is a joke made by one person about themselves or their own group. It is not someone from the southern Tory shires ridiculing a working class city for being poor or full of thieves or whatever. I have known people from Liverpool. If a southerner went up there and started cracking lazy, shit jokes like that we both know what the reaction would be. Don't bullsh1t everyone.
Comments
Do you think we're regressing to the levels of the 70s/80s?
Not remotely. There's no comparison between attitudes to these matters now and then (though football is notably relatively unreconstructed by comparison with other areas of life).
Rather than going off topic, I think this post actually nails it. I find “banter” to be the most toxic word in the English language, a free-pass to the simple minded, “Lad Bible” culture that’s grown out of 4chan and gamergate and fuelled the rise of the far right. While I’m not saying these idiots are nazis, they couch everything they say and do in the same language - found several tweets calling Chairboys Central a “snowflake” and telling him to “lighten up, it’s just bantz” - the exact playbook of the “alt” right. It’s worth reading up on how people on 4chan and 8chan groom disaffected young white men into extremist ideologies, including through the use of this language.
There are plenty of football clubs around the world who have made a stand against this kind of thing and created an identity through doing so. An identity worth supporting in its own right. St Pauli in Germany being the most obvious, famously has the highest proportion of women supporters in the country, and not by accident. As long as Wycombe tacitly support this behaviour by not condemning it, there’s a number of potential fans who we are never going to attract. The idea that Wycombe’s identity is that of “family club” is frankly nonsense, we’re no more family friendly than 91 other league clubs, half of whom also think that’s their identity.
Yes we’ve come a long way since the 70s and 80s, but that doesn’t mean we should stop moving in the right direction.
@drcongo I have found myself wondering what it really means to be a family club. Also, rather than a "family club", why not an "inclusive club"? In fact, why even have the label at all? All clubs should be striving to foster the same kind of atmosphere, to the point that they don't need to wear it as a badge of honour.
St. Pauli are brilliant; I've got to get to a game out there. There was an interesting piece on the not dissimilar Union Berlin the programme yesterday.
Alternatively, @drcongo, "snowflake" is a word that has found its way into common currency among young people while, similarly, saying "bantz" operates as accurately as an identifier of alt-right sympathies as does breathing in and out.
I agree that Wycombe is no more family-friendly than most other clubs but that's not necessarily a bad thing since it indicates that most clubs are perfectly welcoming places to visit these days - Wycombe certainly is, is it not? - nor an indicator of significant undertones to the sort of mindless chanting that, to me, signifies nothing more sinister than either misjudged humour or alien-to-me but not especially disquieting tone-deafness and insensitivity to the feelings of others, though the mob mentality we discussed earlier potentially does a fair job of explaining it.
I'm not at all against encouraging better behaviour and less aggressive and rude chanting at matches - why not encourage a generous spirit? - but it is not clear to me that there is a constituency of potential fans that are put off by the knowledge or even suggestion that Wycombe is somehow an unpleasant place to visit nor that there is any particular reason that they would be. I know a number of families from my extremely patrician and gentrified school that come to watch Wycombe and do so happily and without negative experiences from other fans.
We have come a long way since the '70s and no-one is suggesting the job is done but there is little evidence that there is a problem at Wycombe that needs to be catastrophized. The condemnatory language you suggest the club might apply seems wholly inapt for this situation.
@2au7pusb Where have you come from all of a sudden? Are you on a wind-up? 'pusb', are you actually a Coventry fan?
I don’t really want to get involved in this highbrow debate save to say that anyone who thinks we have a serious problem with crowd behaviour at Wycombe has obviously not visited many other grounds and have certainly never been to Millwall!
@HCblue Yes, I agree that it’s not something that needs to be catastrophised, and isn’t even a particularly bad problem at Wycombe, but I do believe it could be better and I also believe that there’s a very specific section of our fans who aren’t able to work out that they’re essentially a mouthpiece for the alt right, parroting the language that they’re picking up from those roots. It’s not that long ago that one of them was tweeting highly offensive words at Gareth Ainsworth and defending his mate’s abuse of Pierre during the ketchup incident.
I strongly disagree with the political/ ideological connection: there's nothing new or alt-right about singing or shouting rude things at football - it's nothing to do with political leanings. But I strongly agree with your other sentiments.
I probably didn’t make my point very clearly. It’s not the rude songs, it’s the language it’s couched in and defended through. https://www.gq.com/story/why-trump-supporters-love-calling-people-snowflakes
20 or 30 years ago Jim Davidson would attack people who didn’t like his racism by calling them “politically correct” and “do gooders”. Now, people who hold abhorrent views call anyone who calls them out on it a “snowflake” and pass off hate, misogyny, homophobia etc. as “banter”. We were right to oppose Davidson and his ilk, and we’ll still be right to have stood up to its modern day successor.
Was the Ainsworth incident the one involving language relating to the travelling community, by any chance?
@th100 Exactly.
Sometimes the word "snowflake" is apt to describe censorious and/or over-sensitive behaviour and sometimes it's a shield used by someone who would do better to consider the criticism being offered. I don't see a particular need to worry it's a sign that young Wycombe fans are being pulled into fascism.
@drcongo I did find that rather odd at the time.
I’m often accused of “seeing something that just isn’t there” @HCblue, and while that might be the case, that accusation was a common one against people who warned about what was happening on the chan sites, before white supremacists started posting their manifestos on those sites immediately before going out and murdering a lot of people. Normalising the language born on 8chan is, in my opinion, dangerous.
In my experience the term snowflake seems to be used by those who are least able to take criticism themselves.
I just find it all a bit aggressive. Normally I'd doubt whether people like that on Twitter would act the same in real life, but I think these 'lads' would - well, we see that they do. It's a real problem. I can totally see why people might find it intimidating.
I don't really understand why you are focusing on a potential link with extreme political ideology when the words "snowflake", whatever its origins, and "bantz" are now in common use among many people, including - especially, even - young ones of no particular political persuasion.
This is possibly where we disagree, to me, the origins are important. If someone is not smart enough to work out why they’ve been handed this insult to use against people who believe in inclusivity then they’re probably credulous enough to take on anything else.
Obviously for believing this, I am a snowflake who has been triggered.
Hello Newbury Wanderer. Yes, these are my first posts on the Gasroom, but I've been a Wycombe fan since 13 years of age. Believe it or not there are some Wycombe fans who don't actually post on here!
I'm afraid I'm being serious. My username is a random bunch of letters I bashed in last night. The 'pusb' is a random coincidence. I can assure you that I'm not an undercover agent sent by Coventry City to sabotage the harmony of the Wycombe support.
Apologies for the tone of my post. I wrote it rather hastily having only read one or two of yours. This thread has greatly expanded since then. I'll have to make time to read it all, hopefully tomorrow.
Talking of credulity, are you sure you're not spending too much time thinking about the etymology of a couple of now common words? By way of a terrible and inapt analogy, I've just spent two weeks in India. There, I saw any number of swastikas, albeit oriented the other way round. Should I be concerned about the country's future direction?
A further, slightly better, analogy: that German team - Dortmund? - that sings "You'll never walk alone". If I go to a match there, should I expect to have a couple of kids offer to "watch" my car for me when I park and for the locals to be fans of the Beatles and speak in a thick accent?
Terrible and inapt analogies are one thing, but is there any need for dated regionalism like people from Liverpool are car thieves?
Well if you thought it was remotely intended as a serious representation of Liverpudlians, you'd win the credulity prize out of all of us, @chris.
What’s the point of saying it?
Its just dull, it has been for 30 years.oh, and it's got nothing to do with us v them. And our lot will be singing about crap like that at Tranmere and most people will cringe.
Speaking as a born and bred scouser, I am pretty certain that not many citizens of Liverpool world be offended by these references because they have a sense of humour and self deprecating jokes are an everyday occurrence in that part of the world. Sadly, that’s not the case everywhere as this thread has shown.
Self deprecating humour is a joke made by one person about themselves or their own group. It is not someone from the southern Tory shires ridiculing a working class city for being poor or full of thieves or whatever. I have known people from Liverpool. If a southerner went up there and started cracking lazy, shit jokes like that we both know what the reaction would be. Don't bullsh1t everyone.
That’s your opinion, I was brought up in Liverpool and still visit the city regularly so I think I have a valid opinion as well.