Andy, to be clear, I wasn't questioning your intent in any way either. I do question your assumptions though.
I agree absolutely that the home attendance for the Bristol game was very disappointing. I don't see any evidence that it was materially affected by the fact that one or two London premier teams were probably at home that day. I dont think you can compare a routine league game to a promotion celebration although I do have to say i was surprised how big the attendance was for stevenage last year.
all evidence would suggest that a Friday night game would reduce not increase the attendance and at the same time piss off a chunk of your regular customer base. I think you have that idea wrong (although with the right intent).
Of course, the more people we can attract the better, but it is extremely hard to attract people unless they want to come. I would expect my marketing bod to have built up good relationships with his opposite numbers at other lg1/lg2 clubs. I would have him on the phone understanding what they have done and how much it worked and copy the best ideas. I suspect he is already doing pretty much that.
hard as it is if we are having a hard commercial view, I do think you have to question pricing policy. We are cheap compared to our competitors and personally I am not convinced that say a £2 increase would turn many if any people who wanted to come away. 5000 people *£2 *23 matches is getting on for £250k revenue less any revenue lost from those who now don't come.
I would also question the generosity of our senior discounts. Hard to understand the logic of starting this at 60 (even if you accept the logic of doing this at all). Not sure how many people are in the 60-67 category - lets say 500 people per game£323 = that's another £35k.
In pure financial terms, with the greatest respect I think there is more mileage there than in "furniture heritage days".
Returning to the subject heading, Tony and I will be at the Trust table (inside Caledonian suite bar area) from about 6.30pm tonight should any WW supporter who is not yet a Trust member wish to sign up for membership, so that they can attend this important meeting.
Same set up on Saturday with other directors present.
@DevC - apologies, just come in and looked at the latest comments. Have prepared, cooked and eaten evening meal prior to picking someone up for tonight’s match so haven’t had a chance yet to read yours and Andy’s latest contributions. Will do so later. Many thanks.
Really interesting contributions on this thread from @DevC and @A_Worboys. Thanks.
Andy, I wonder if a way to test your idea could be to leave the Oxford and Luton game as Saturday fixtures, but offer ticket discounts to ST holders of the London premier league clubs not playing that day. Then see how many of those are taken up, with strong uptake potentially strengthening the argument to try a Friday night.
One area I think we can do more is by mobilising our existing fan base to bring people along. I'm pretty sure everyone on this board who lives within 30 miles of High Wycombe knows someone who comes casually, or could become a ST holder. When half season tickets go on sale, I'd look at an introduce a friend scheme with something for the fan who does the introduction. Money off next years ST, invite to a 500 Club style dinner, something like that... I'd also look at a coffee shop style loyalty scheme for those pay-as-you-go fans - e.g. do 10 league games at AP and your 11th is free. (The club could use their online sales portal to get a better idea of the number of games to use as a threshold.)
Finally, apparently we've sold a particularly high number of season tickets for this season so it'll be interesting to see what effect this has on the income when this year's accounts come out.
the high level of season tickets will not be in this years accounts, which are for 2017-2018, we will have to wait until Nov 2019 to see the effect of this years higher S/T sales. However the higher figure could well include more Free cfildren season tickets.
The following data is extracted from statutory accounts published on the trust website (WWFC trading figures, FALL debt).
£000s
2017
2016
2015
2014
2013
Revenue
3707
3350
3324
3593
Cost
-4537
-3752
-4311
-5174
Other
41
65
104
136
Op profit/(Loss)
-789
-337
-883
-1445
Transfer
1807
809
642
238
Net profit/(Loss)
1018
472
-241
-1207
Debt
1285
2574
2893
3117
3307
Thanks so much for sharing this, it is much clearer looking at this than trying to get my head around the accounts. Forgive me if I am mistaken (please correct me) but it looks like paying down the debts (and perhaps interest) is what is causing the net operating loss to be so high, with good progress being made in paying this off, a few more seasons operating as we are and we would be in a much better position in terms of operating profit, the club wouldn't be paying rent to FALL to service debts. It would seem like a slow process but we would get there in the end? Or am I completely wrong in this?
I'm no accountant but wouldn't debt interest repayments be included in costs and any capital repayments be from nett profit. I accept that on that basis I don't see how we repaid debt from 2574 to 1285 on a nett profit of 472 but hopefully someone can explain.
Colonel, no you haven't quite grasped it I'm afraid.
Think of it compared to your own finances.
The clubs "turnover" is your salary
Your rent, electric, travel. food etc but not counting any mortgage repayments.are the clubs "cost"
The "op profit" is the difference between your salary and your outgoings. Obviously not good news if this is negative.
Now as it happens you have had a couple of bits of luck in the last couple of years. You won some money on the lottery two years ago and last year great Aunt Flo died and left you some money. That is the clubs "transfer money".
The one offs were more than the loss on day to day living so it not only covered that loss but allowed you to pay off some of your mortgage ("the clubs debt"). You did that in the same year as Flo died just as the club used its large receipt from Ibe sale to pay down its loans from 2574 to 1285 in the same year.
The concern is that you are unlikely to win the lottery this year or next year etc etc and you have run out of Aunty Flos and so if your day to day outgoings continue to exceed your salary, you can only carry on if you take on more debt, if of course you can find someone willing to lend you the money. This is where the club is now with no certainty that there will be future transfer income.
You may have the additional problem that you also have to fund mortgage repayments from the difference between your salary and outgoings. The club had this problem until recently as it had to make annual payments to Hayes debt. This at least has now finished as the club used the Ibe money to fully repay this debt.
The thing that surprises me most is that the revenue looks so consistent over the four years. With the cup runs, winnings, etc I would have expected more peaks and troughs but I guess it shows how in the grand scheme of things a money-spinning trio to White Hart Lane is never going to be a panacea (which will help me no end when we get Macclesfield away in the draw)
A belated comment about the unexpectedly large “gate” for the Stevenage game on 5 May. I seem to recall that a substantial number of tickets had been purchased before promotion was clinched at Chesterfield. Could well have been a factor. Either that or everybody was on such a high that they wanted to be there to celebrate on the last day of the season. Or a combination of the two.
We live in an ‘event’ orientated world. The answer to why so many people came for the Stevenage game was that it was an event. People could post it on Facebook and have all their ‘friends’ like it for them being there.
Create 23 ‘events’ at Adams Park and we’d be quids in (which I think was @A_Worboys point).
I hope, on the list of 23 Special Event matches, there a 'Rangers' Day - to balance out the obvious bias from one of our previous 'special event' epic fails.
The club tried an ‘event’ a few years ago when we used Paul Lambert and Neil Lennon to try and attract some London based Celtic fans to a game. Some people still refer to it as an embarrassing episode so if you try something different you’re always going to get criticism from traditionalists.
Having arrived late to this debate I'd like to say thanks to @marlowchair for their willingness to communicate despite some of the attempts to shout them down here.
The whole build-up to the glorious 12th (or twelfth of never) seems to me to have been for the most part a morass of smoke and mirrors, obfuscation, repetition and pointless speculation.
Thanks for the clarification @DevC, really appreciated. So do you know where the interest payments are shown? Would that have been on Costs? It seems we really need to keep a tight lid on costs but the squad is getting bigger, I guess they might argue that this is because of increased revenue in League One.
Comments
Andy, to be clear, I wasn't questioning your intent in any way either. I do question your assumptions though.
I agree absolutely that the home attendance for the Bristol game was very disappointing. I don't see any evidence that it was materially affected by the fact that one or two London premier teams were probably at home that day. I dont think you can compare a routine league game to a promotion celebration although I do have to say i was surprised how big the attendance was for stevenage last year.
all evidence would suggest that a Friday night game would reduce not increase the attendance and at the same time piss off a chunk of your regular customer base. I think you have that idea wrong (although with the right intent).
Of course, the more people we can attract the better, but it is extremely hard to attract people unless they want to come. I would expect my marketing bod to have built up good relationships with his opposite numbers at other lg1/lg2 clubs. I would have him on the phone understanding what they have done and how much it worked and copy the best ideas. I suspect he is already doing pretty much that.
hard as it is if we are having a hard commercial view, I do think you have to question pricing policy. We are cheap compared to our competitors and personally I am not convinced that say a £2 increase would turn many if any people who wanted to come away. 5000 people *£2 *23 matches is getting on for £250k revenue less any revenue lost from those who now don't come.
I would also question the generosity of our senior discounts. Hard to understand the logic of starting this at 60 (even if you accept the logic of doing this at all). Not sure how many people are in the 60-67 category - lets say 500 people per game£323 = that's another £35k.
In pure financial terms, with the greatest respect I think there is more mileage there than in "furniture heritage days".
Returning to the subject heading, Tony and I will be at the Trust table (inside Caledonian suite bar area) from about 6.30pm tonight should any WW supporter who is not yet a Trust member wish to sign up for membership, so that they can attend this important meeting.
Same set up on Saturday with other directors present.
Alternatively please go to http://www.wycombewandererstrust.com/trust-membership
Any new and paid up Trust Member who has held a season ticket for four seasons will instantly become a Legacy Member.
Hello @AlanCecil - any word on the possible live streaming of the meeting yet?
Not as yet sorry.
@DevC - apologies, just come in and looked at the latest comments. Have prepared, cooked and eaten evening meal prior to picking someone up for tonight’s match so haven’t had a chance yet to read yours and Andy’s latest contributions. Will do so later. Many thanks.
Really interesting contributions on this thread from @DevC and @A_Worboys. Thanks.
Andy, I wonder if a way to test your idea could be to leave the Oxford and Luton game as Saturday fixtures, but offer ticket discounts to ST holders of the London premier league clubs not playing that day. Then see how many of those are taken up, with strong uptake potentially strengthening the argument to try a Friday night.
One area I think we can do more is by mobilising our existing fan base to bring people along. I'm pretty sure everyone on this board who lives within 30 miles of High Wycombe knows someone who comes casually, or could become a ST holder. When half season tickets go on sale, I'd look at an introduce a friend scheme with something for the fan who does the introduction. Money off next years ST, invite to a 500 Club style dinner, something like that... I'd also look at a coffee shop style loyalty scheme for those pay-as-you-go fans - e.g. do 10 league games at AP and your 11th is free. (The club could use their online sales portal to get a better idea of the number of games to use as a threshold.)
Finally, apparently we've sold a particularly high number of season tickets for this season so it'll be interesting to see what effect this has on the income when this year's accounts come out.
the high level of season tickets will not be in this years accounts, which are for 2017-2018, we will have to wait until Nov 2019 to see the effect of this years higher S/T sales. However the higher figure could well include more Free cfildren season tickets.
Children another typo
Thanks so much for sharing this, it is much clearer looking at this than trying to get my head around the accounts. Forgive me if I am mistaken (please correct me) but it looks like paying down the debts (and perhaps interest) is what is causing the net operating loss to be so high, with good progress being made in paying this off, a few more seasons operating as we are and we would be in a much better position in terms of operating profit, the club wouldn't be paying rent to FALL to service debts. It would seem like a slow process but we would get there in the end? Or am I completely wrong in this?
I'm no accountant but wouldn't debt interest repayments be included in costs and any capital repayments be from nett profit. I accept that on that basis I don't see how we repaid debt from 2574 to 1285 on a nett profit of 472 but hopefully someone can explain.
Colonel, no you haven't quite grasped it I'm afraid.
Think of it compared to your own finances.
The clubs "turnover" is your salary
Your rent, electric, travel. food etc but not counting any mortgage repayments.are the clubs "cost"
The "op profit" is the difference between your salary and your outgoings. Obviously not good news if this is negative.
Now as it happens you have had a couple of bits of luck in the last couple of years. You won some money on the lottery two years ago and last year great Aunt Flo died and left you some money. That is the clubs "transfer money".
The one offs were more than the loss on day to day living so it not only covered that loss but allowed you to pay off some of your mortgage ("the clubs debt"). You did that in the same year as Flo died just as the club used its large receipt from Ibe sale to pay down its loans from 2574 to 1285 in the same year.
The concern is that you are unlikely to win the lottery this year or next year etc etc and you have run out of Aunty Flos and so if your day to day outgoings continue to exceed your salary, you can only carry on if you take on more debt, if of course you can find someone willing to lend you the money. This is where the club is now with no certainty that there will be future transfer income.
You may have the additional problem that you also have to fund mortgage repayments from the difference between your salary and outgoings. The club had this problem until recently as it had to make annual payments to Hayes debt. This at least has now finished as the club used the Ibe money to fully repay this debt.
The thing that surprises me most is that the revenue looks so consistent over the four years. With the cup runs, winnings, etc I would have expected more peaks and troughs but I guess it shows how in the grand scheme of things a money-spinning trio to White Hart Lane is never going to be a panacea (which will help me no end when we get Macclesfield away in the draw)
A belated comment about the unexpectedly large “gate” for the Stevenage game on 5 May. I seem to recall that a substantial number of tickets had been purchased before promotion was clinched at Chesterfield. Could well have been a factor. Either that or everybody was on such a high that they wanted to be there to celebrate on the last day of the season. Or a combination of the two.
We live in an ‘event’ orientated world. The answer to why so many people came for the Stevenage game was that it was an event. People could post it on Facebook and have all their ‘friends’ like it for them being there.
Create 23 ‘events’ at Adams Park and we’d be quids in (which I think was @A_Worboys point).
But easier said than done!
I hope, on the list of 23 Special Event matches, there a 'Rangers' Day - to balance out the obvious bias from one of our previous 'special event' epic fails.
The club tried an ‘event’ a few years ago when we used Paul Lambert and Neil Lennon to try and attract some London based Celtic fans to a game. Some people still refer to it as an embarrassing episode so if you try something different you’re always going to get criticism from traditionalists.
@Last_Quarter like the loyalty card idea.
I enjoyed Celtic Day. Who knew their Banbury supporters club was so large?
Maybe I can do the reverse, and persuade the Colorado Rapids to throw a Wycombe day. All proceeds go to the Frank Adams roof!
On second thoughts, they are owned by a certain Stan Kroenke...
Having arrived late to this debate I'd like to say thanks to @marlowchair for their willingness to communicate despite some of the attempts to shout them down here.
The whole build-up to the glorious 12th (or twelfth of never) seems to me to have been for the most part a morass of smoke and mirrors, obfuscation, repetition and pointless speculation.
Can’t wait for the real thing (I think).
Well said Micra, I posted a similar message last week. Pointless speculation doesn’t help anyone.
Sorry @glasshalfempty what was that? Could not hear you for the shouting down...
rolls fag
@Wendoverman TURN YOUR HEARING AID UP!
What’s that shrill whistling sound?
@micra It's not John Gregory is it?
@Wendoverman’s hearing aid perhaps?
What?
Haha ? but I thought it was Lawrie Sanchez who usedto communicate with whistles?
Thanks for the clarification @DevC, really appreciated. So do you know where the interest payments are shown? Would that have been on Costs? It seems we really need to keep a tight lid on costs but the squad is getting bigger, I guess they might argue that this is because of increased revenue in League One.