Last I knew, (some 11 years ago), an associate of mine was on the cusp of raising enough money to run a "Porsche racing team". I believe it was just 3 cars and be estimated that he would need million for the 1st year. Heaven alone kows what the costs today are?
Hardly a rich man's play thing!
I thought AH arrived due to his marketing skills, the financials gains arrived earlier than expected due to the Bournemouth Transfer( not within WWFC control). AH has been a benefit to the Trust but have the recent changes to the Board setup been a success?. How close will Marlowchair's comments be to the facts we shall hear in September. Time will tell.
@Blue_since_1990 said:
so marlowchair are you able to answer the questions I posed in my earlier post please?
Apologies blue_since I missed your questions
“Hi Marlowchair - so obviously you know the group in question. In your opinion are they suitable? You also mentioned they have experience with another EFL club, did that relationship go well?”
As I said in other posts I’ve no issue with any of the interested parties that have been in discussions, there are more than one.i would hope the board fulfill their obligations thoroughly and IF the membership decide to explore sale of some or all of our club , table all approaches and options so membership can decide on which , if any we prefer.
“How long have our club representatives known about this approach?”
Approaches.so different time scales for the different bidders/interested parties, but over 18 months give or take.
@TheDancingYak said: @marlowchair said:
The sporting director has no experience at this level but had racing car team experience in a pro am competition designed for rich men to self fund a drive for themselves.
I would need to take some exception to this statement. At lower levels of the sport I could possibly agree with you.
But seeing as Mr Howard’s racing team has/does field multiple Aston Martins with multiple Paid drivers (for each car) at events such as the Le Mans series which will require a full team of developers, mechanics etc etc for each car, it’s slightly more involved than a rich man funding himself to go racing. The cars alone would be thundreda (if not millions) of pounds to buy, before you even start on the rest of the team budget.
I actually think running a succeasful racing team is probably as close as you can get to running a football team (without actually running a football team) and gives unique ”out of the box” thinking a lower league club needs to drive interest towards it.
The only better positon for a man of his expirence would be a sporting director role - which is exactly what he moved to.
That’s not really how motor racing works, even at the level he operates at which is high. The vehicles and developers etc are leased or purchased ready to go from ProDrive Banbury who supply a number of teams. They build and deliver the Aston Martin racing program and also to privateers.
All a boss needs to do in order to race is fund it.
I just hope we avoid the ‘we’ll go extinct if we don’t sell,’ or ‘people who don’t want to sell wouldn’t be happier in non-league,’ nonsense this time around.
@micra said:
Furthermore, I feel disinclined to warm towards @marlowchair.
Perhaps just once in such an important topic the bullying and making it personal tactics can be withheld?
I do have a long established reputation for bullying @marlowchair. My disinclination to warm to you may well be dispelled, if, as I hope, we meet on 12 September.
@floyd said:
I just hope we avoid the ‘we’ll go extinct if we don’t sell,’ or ‘people who don’t want to sell wouldn’t be happier in non-league,’ nonsense this time around.
I'd be open to that message if there was some substance behind it. At the moment, although @marlowchair has now been a little more substantive in his comments, there is little but speculation on which to base a view. Thus, I'm happy to wait and see what comes out anon.
Me too @HCblue, i just hope we can have a sensible discussion based on the facts. Surely anyone who's supported us for more than 5 years will need a lot of convincing.
@marlowchair , the boy @micra is no bully. He's like a kindly grandad who just wants the best for the club.
I think it's fairly obvious you're well connected with the club, maybe a bit too well connected, and so that unsettles people a little.
As opposed to the couple of teens we have pretending to be ITK who get 1 in every 100 predictions right.
I’ve never made it personal or derided any poster on here for having an opinion or posting info.he has ignored others in this very thread who have made some interesting claims and points, but focuses on me....
@EwanHoosaami said:
Last I knew, (some 11 years ago), an associate of mine was on the cusp of raising enough money to run a "Porsche racing team". I believe it was just 3 cars and be estimated that he would need million for the 1st year. Heaven alone kows what the costs today are?
Hardly a rich man's play thing!
That should have read "Eight million" for the 1st year alone.
Thank you for answering my questions @marlowchair. I am a Trust and Legacy member and thus hope to get a vote on the proposals. I am open minded and I am certainly not against investment from a potential buyer, as long as we can confirm such buyer is honest and has the club at heart and not just asset strippers.
It would be interesting to understand what is to be offered to such buyer/s such as the ground or maybe buy back the training pitch. However, for me it is time to concentrate on the football and leave this topic until we are presented with all the detail.
I understood that the ground is owned by Frank Adams Legacy Limited (FALL) a separate entity to both club and trust. This was done so that even if someone did take full control of the club, they wouldn't own the stadium, safeguarding our home.
That’s not really how motor racing works, even at the level he operates at which is high. The vehicles and developers etc are leased or purchased ready to go from ProDrive Banbury who supply a number of teams. They build and deliver the Aston Martin racing program and also to privateers.
All a boss needs to do in order to race is fund it.
Really? That’s all he has to do?
Just like a football manager just has to turn up with a football and tell the players to kick it in the goal and make sure they pay the players each week?
Also, given this relates to your previous accusations about him putting beachdean on our shirts for cheap - I trust we are paid a good amount to have our badge in prime GT3 real estate.
@Malone: Appreciate your kind words. I know
I can be irritatingly pedantic but I now try to be selective in that respect. For @marlowchair to suggest that I ignore others who have made good points is very strange as I have made a point of acknowledging several posts relating to the need to reserve judgment pending the General Meeting and to try to establish at the meeting the motivation of the potential investor(s).
@TheDancingYak said:
Also, given this relates to your previous accusations about him putting beachdean on our shirts for cheap - I trust we are paid a good amount to have our badge in prime GT3 real estate.
I didn’t. I’d call you out to reproduce what I said in context word for word to prove it but that would only assist your effort to go well off a very important topic for the clubs future.
We aren’t paid anything licensing wise for use of our IP on his vehicle and given its excellent publicity & cross promotion for our great club in a great sport and new market not should we.its an excellent reciprocal arrangement.
That’s not really how motor racing works, even at the level he operates at which is high. The vehicles and developers etc are leased or purchased ready to go from ProDrive Banbury who supply a number of teams. They build and deliver the Aston Martin racing program and also to privateers.
All a boss needs to do in order to race is fund it.
Really? That’s all he has to do?
Just like a football manager just has to turn up with a football and tell the players to kick it in the goal and make sure they pay the players each week?
Dear o lore.
Pretty much. It has more akin with buying a horse and paying the best jockey to ride it than the varied and diverse skills and management required to be successful building a successful football club. Logic tells us that if nothing else. Man managing and recruiting 30 pro footballers over 11 months of a season plus overseeing a fully functioning media,medical,commercial,customer facing,retail,food and beverage operation isn’t even in the same stratosphere as racing where one can buy the pre prepared and maintained vehicles and but the best team Mate you can ( Johnny Adam) and race.
So it seems to me that a lot of people are saying that to survive at this level we need to constantly add money because it is not possible to operate without making a loss. Do all other privately owned football league clubs have backers willing to throw money away? I don't believe all clubs are making a loss and there are plenty with smaller attendances than us. Just because they might be privately owned doesn't mean someone rich is constantly putting money in. So in my mind we should be able to operate as a fan owned club and not make a loss.
I don't understand how we can entertain the idea of a private investor taking control after what we have been through. I see the mess at clubs like Coventry and feels so grateful. It is unlikely a private investor would be willling to put money in forever so to me the model seems unsustainable. I would rather cut costs than get in an investor, even if it affects performance.
I'm for fan ownership and clubs for the most part being in league positions which bear some resemblance to the size of the club. Punching above your weight should be possible with good management, but is essentially a transient thing. The football administrators disagree with that and every decision they make, make it harder. It is entirely natural that in the absence of effective regulation, some will expect Wycombe to join the race to destruction and implosion. I hope we don't, but I only started watching Wycombe in non-league when they seemed to be serious about football league aspirations, and I genuinely wonder how many would now accept non league football however sustainable, because its not very 'aspirational'.
I am not sure that non league football at the top level would be sustainable either. When you look at the money bring spent on wages by some of the National League sides, there is no way we could compete with greatly reduced income from much lower attendances.
The cost of maintaining such a relatively large stadium would eat into a large proportion of our takings. As you drop down the leagues, crowds and incomes reduce so I could see us ending up at Chesham's level. Some may accept that as a price for remaining supporter owned.
Suggesting that we would drop four divisions to join Chesham in the Southern League if we remain supporter owned is the sort of scaremongering we don't need in the forthcoming debate.
There has been so much guesswork and doom laden predictions that I think it’s time everyone calmed down and waited till September 12 when we get the facts.
@Vital said:
Suggesting that we would drop four divisions to join Chesham in the Southern League if we remain supporter owned is the sort of scaremongering we don't need in the forthcoming debate.
With respect you totally misunderstood my post. A previous poster had commented whether supporters would accept non league football as the cost of remaining supporter owned.
I probably didn't explain myself very well, but was trying to point out that in the event that we dropped out of the league (which I can't see happening in the near future), trying to compete in the National League would be very difficult with reduced income. A number of teams relegated from the league have struggled to survive and some have got relegated again.
And, by the way @Vital don't put words in my mouth. I said "could" not "would".
One of the things I feel is sadly lacking at WWFC is an energy & direction to increasing our fan base. It is something I’ve talked about ad infinitum but as somebody working in a sales/marketing environment I feel the club is missing out on in this area hugely.
When we played Bristol Rovers recently I was amazed nobody on here posted about the size of the crowd. 4,800 with 1,000 from Bristol. That’s under 4,000 home supporters for an important and quite high-profile match. And yet there were over 5,000 for Blackpool at home with a much smaller away support (note - no Premier League games).
Despite their collection of data from fans over the years I’ve never heard an analysis from the club as to who our supporters are or where they come from. Draw a cross on a map, centred in High Wycombe. List the four quadrants in relative size of support: NW, NE, SE & SW. Which area produces the biggest support & why? Conversely, which produces the least & why? And why do potential supporters not come? Have cut-backs to evening bus services affected our midweek attendances?
My contention is that we have a core level of support but unfortunately it’s not enough to finance a consistent spot in League One. The hardcore WW fans are brilliant but we need more bums on seats. They are out there but how to we tap into them?
In an area where more fans travel to watch Premier League clubs than their local League One side we need to be able to tap into that market. There are also lots of WW floating fans who will come to 1/3 or 1/4 matches. The gate v Stevenage last season (8,878) for a game with nothing riding on it is proof these people exist. Or taking 4,000 fans to Villa Park midweek when we can’t even attract 4,000 home fans on a Saturday v Bristol Rovers.
“Lack of resources” will be a principle response from many. However, a Trust-owned club should be able to tap into the resources of many skilled fans, many of whom will be retired and only glad to help.
Consider this option: my own opinion is that the club should have tried to switch the Luton & Oxford Utd home games to Friday night. Firstly, there’s less likelihood of crowd problems with evening games. But with 2 high-profile attractive games we could attract people who go to Premier League games on a Saturday and also people who play football on a Saturday. I’m not advocating this as a general switch but I’m convinced we’d put 2,000 on the gate for each of those matches. 4,000 people would equate to roughly £50,000 income. But remember, the vast majority of Premier League supporters will be season-ticket holders and not people who make up their minds on the day where to go.
Another example (although at a much lower level) proves the point. At the beginning of August I went to see Winslow United v Easington Sports in the FA Cup. It was both clubs first-ever entry in the competition. In order to maximise the crowd Winslow switched the game to the Friday evening and did a lot of promotion on social media. Over 300 people turned up - compared to their usual 70 or so. So it proves that clever marketing (please note note gimmicky) can produce tremendous results. Incidentally, the guy taking the gate money told me he was a Watford season-ticket holder & had the game been played the following day he would have been at Watford rather than Winslow.
We have 23 home league games in League One. To make this work you need to have 23 different reasons to put to people why they should turn up. For a Trust-owned club to succeed you have to have innovation and lots of energy. It worries me to see how fantastically the fans of Charlton Athletic did to get them back to the Valley. The club was subsequently sold to a Belgian consortium and it has struggled ever since, amid huge fan unrest. I don’t think we’ve yet got the best out of a trust-owned model at WWFC.
Comments
Last I knew, (some 11 years ago), an associate of mine was on the cusp of raising enough money to run a "Porsche racing team". I believe it was just 3 cars and be estimated that he would need million for the 1st year. Heaven alone kows what the costs today are?
Hardly a rich man's play thing!
I thought AH arrived due to his marketing skills, the financials gains arrived earlier than expected due to the Bournemouth Transfer( not within WWFC control). AH has been a benefit to the Trust but have the recent changes to the Board setup been a success?. How close will Marlowchair's comments be to the facts we shall hear in September. Time will tell.
Apologies blue_since I missed your questions
“Hi Marlowchair - so obviously you know the group in question. In your opinion are they suitable? You also mentioned they have experience with another EFL club, did that relationship go well?”
As I said in other posts I’ve no issue with any of the interested parties that have been in discussions, there are more than one.i would hope the board fulfill their obligations thoroughly and IF the membership decide to explore sale of some or all of our club , table all approaches and options so membership can decide on which , if any we prefer.
“How long have our club representatives known about this approach?”
Approaches.so different time scales for the different bidders/interested parties, but over 18 months give or take.
I wonder whether Gareth extended his contract with the hope/expectation of future outside investment enabling him to have an increased playing budget?
Perhaps just once in such an important topic the bullying and making it personal tactics can be withheld?
That’s not really how motor racing works, even at the level he operates at which is high. The vehicles and developers etc are leased or purchased ready to go from ProDrive Banbury who supply a number of teams. They build and deliver the Aston Martin racing program and also to privateers.
All a boss needs to do in order to race is fund it.
I just hope we avoid the ‘we’ll go extinct if we don’t sell,’ or ‘people who don’t want to sell wouldn’t be happier in non-league,’ nonsense this time around.
I do have a long established reputation for bullying @marlowchair. My disinclination to warm to you may well be dispelled, if, as I hope, we meet on 12 September.
I'd be open to that message if there was some substance behind it. At the moment, although @marlowchair has now been a little more substantive in his comments, there is little but speculation on which to base a view. Thus, I'm happy to wait and see what comes out anon.
Me too @HCblue, i just hope we can have a sensible discussion based on the facts. Surely anyone who's supported us for more than 5 years will need a lot of convincing.
Agree that healthy scepticism should be a sine qua non.
@marlowchair , the boy @micra is no bully. He's like a kindly grandad who just wants the best for the club.
I think it's fairly obvious you're well connected with the club, maybe a bit too well connected, and so that unsettles people a little.
As opposed to the couple of teens we have pretending to be ITK who get 1 in every 100 predictions right.
I’ve never made it personal or derided any poster on here for having an opinion or posting info.he has ignored others in this very thread who have made some interesting claims and points, but focuses on me....
That should have read "Eight million" for the 1st year alone.
Thank you for answering my questions @marlowchair. I am a Trust and Legacy member and thus hope to get a vote on the proposals. I am open minded and I am certainly not against investment from a potential buyer, as long as we can confirm such buyer is honest and has the club at heart and not just asset strippers.
It would be interesting to understand what is to be offered to such buyer/s such as the ground or maybe buy back the training pitch. However, for me it is time to concentrate on the football and leave this topic until we are presented with all the detail.
I understood that the ground is owned by Frank Adams Legacy Limited (FALL) a separate entity to both club and trust. This was done so that even if someone did take full control of the club, they wouldn't own the stadium, safeguarding our home.
Really? That’s all he has to do?
Just like a football manager just has to turn up with a football and tell the players to kick it in the goal and make sure they pay the players each week?
Dear o lore.
Also, given this relates to your previous accusations about him putting beachdean on our shirts for cheap - I trust we are paid a good amount to have our badge in prime GT3 real estate.
@Malone: Appreciate your kind words. I know
I can be irritatingly pedantic but I now try to be selective in that respect. For @marlowchair to suggest that I ignore others who have made good points is very strange as I have made a point of acknowledging several posts relating to the need to reserve judgment pending the General Meeting and to try to establish at the meeting the motivation of the potential investor(s).
I didn’t. I’d call you out to reproduce what I said in context word for word to prove it but that would only assist your effort to go well off a very important topic for the clubs future.
We aren’t paid anything licensing wise for use of our IP on his vehicle and given its excellent publicity & cross promotion for our great club in a great sport and new market not should we.its an excellent reciprocal arrangement.
Pretty much. It has more akin with buying a horse and paying the best jockey to ride it than the varied and diverse skills and management required to be successful building a successful football club. Logic tells us that if nothing else. Man managing and recruiting 30 pro footballers over 11 months of a season plus overseeing a fully functioning media,medical,commercial,customer facing,retail,food and beverage operation isn’t even in the same stratosphere as racing where one can buy the pre prepared and maintained vehicles and but the best team Mate you can ( Johnny Adam) and race.
So it seems to me that a lot of people are saying that to survive at this level we need to constantly add money because it is not possible to operate without making a loss. Do all other privately owned football league clubs have backers willing to throw money away? I don't believe all clubs are making a loss and there are plenty with smaller attendances than us. Just because they might be privately owned doesn't mean someone rich is constantly putting money in. So in my mind we should be able to operate as a fan owned club and not make a loss.
I don't understand how we can entertain the idea of a private investor taking control after what we have been through. I see the mess at clubs like Coventry and feels so grateful. It is unlikely a private investor would be willling to put money in forever so to me the model seems unsustainable. I would rather cut costs than get in an investor, even if it affects performance.
I'm for fan ownership and clubs for the most part being in league positions which bear some resemblance to the size of the club. Punching above your weight should be possible with good management, but is essentially a transient thing. The football administrators disagree with that and every decision they make, make it harder. It is entirely natural that in the absence of effective regulation, some will expect Wycombe to join the race to destruction and implosion. I hope we don't, but I only started watching Wycombe in non-league when they seemed to be serious about football league aspirations, and I genuinely wonder how many would now accept non league football however sustainable, because its not very 'aspirational'.
I am not sure that non league football at the top level would be sustainable either. When you look at the money bring spent on wages by some of the National League sides, there is no way we could compete with greatly reduced income from much lower attendances.
The cost of maintaining such a relatively large stadium would eat into a large proportion of our takings. As you drop down the leagues, crowds and incomes reduce so I could see us ending up at Chesham's level. Some may accept that as a price for remaining supporter owned.
Suggesting that we would drop four divisions to join Chesham in the Southern League if we remain supporter owned is the sort of scaremongering we don't need in the forthcoming debate.
There has been so much guesswork and doom laden predictions that I think it’s time everyone calmed down and waited till September 12 when we get the facts.
Indeed. But after the fiasco in 2014, I suspect most people will treat the 'facts' with a healthy dose of scepticism.
With respect you totally misunderstood my post. A previous poster had commented whether supporters would accept non league football as the cost of remaining supporter owned.
I probably didn't explain myself very well, but was trying to point out that in the event that we dropped out of the league (which I can't see happening in the near future), trying to compete in the National League would be very difficult with reduced income. A number of teams relegated from the league have struggled to survive and some have got relegated again.
And, by the way @Vital don't put words in my mouth. I said "could" not "would".
One of the things I feel is sadly lacking at WWFC is an energy & direction to increasing our fan base. It is something I’ve talked about ad infinitum but as somebody working in a sales/marketing environment I feel the club is missing out on in this area hugely.
When we played Bristol Rovers recently I was amazed nobody on here posted about the size of the crowd. 4,800 with 1,000 from Bristol. That’s under 4,000 home supporters for an important and quite high-profile match. And yet there were over 5,000 for Blackpool at home with a much smaller away support (note - no Premier League games).
Despite their collection of data from fans over the years I’ve never heard an analysis from the club as to who our supporters are or where they come from. Draw a cross on a map, centred in High Wycombe. List the four quadrants in relative size of support: NW, NE, SE & SW. Which area produces the biggest support & why? Conversely, which produces the least & why? And why do potential supporters not come? Have cut-backs to evening bus services affected our midweek attendances?
My contention is that we have a core level of support but unfortunately it’s not enough to finance a consistent spot in League One. The hardcore WW fans are brilliant but we need more bums on seats. They are out there but how to we tap into them?
In an area where more fans travel to watch Premier League clubs than their local League One side we need to be able to tap into that market. There are also lots of WW floating fans who will come to 1/3 or 1/4 matches. The gate v Stevenage last season (8,878) for a game with nothing riding on it is proof these people exist. Or taking 4,000 fans to Villa Park midweek when we can’t even attract 4,000 home fans on a Saturday v Bristol Rovers.
“Lack of resources” will be a principle response from many. However, a Trust-owned club should be able to tap into the resources of many skilled fans, many of whom will be retired and only glad to help.
Consider this option: my own opinion is that the club should have tried to switch the Luton & Oxford Utd home games to Friday night. Firstly, there’s less likelihood of crowd problems with evening games. But with 2 high-profile attractive games we could attract people who go to Premier League games on a Saturday and also people who play football on a Saturday. I’m not advocating this as a general switch but I’m convinced we’d put 2,000 on the gate for each of those matches. 4,000 people would equate to roughly £50,000 income. But remember, the vast majority of Premier League supporters will be season-ticket holders and not people who make up their minds on the day where to go.
Another example (although at a much lower level) proves the point. At the beginning of August I went to see Winslow United v Easington Sports in the FA Cup. It was both clubs first-ever entry in the competition. In order to maximise the crowd Winslow switched the game to the Friday evening and did a lot of promotion on social media. Over 300 people turned up - compared to their usual 70 or so. So it proves that clever marketing (please note note gimmicky) can produce tremendous results. Incidentally, the guy taking the gate money told me he was a Watford season-ticket holder & had the game been played the following day he would have been at Watford rather than Winslow.
We have 23 home league games in League One. To make this work you need to have 23 different reasons to put to people why they should turn up. For a Trust-owned club to succeed you have to have innovation and lots of energy. It worries me to see how fantastically the fans of Charlton Athletic did to get them back to the Valley. The club was subsequently sold to a Belgian consortium and it has struggled ever since, amid huge fan unrest. I don’t think we’ve yet got the best out of a trust-owned model at WWFC.
@A_Worboys - Why do you think there would be less crowd trouble on a Friday night, particularly for the Luton visit?