@eric_Plant I think the Quote was " It's my money I can do what I like with it".
I think he has been very helpful to the Trust since he handed over, but it was not a good idea in 2003 & 2009. We have of course had some great seasons since then, but it always seem to bring a financial crisis afterwards.
@DevC I think the original Loan repayment for the Trust was £2,000,000. He
As it happens you are wrong @wformation - by £2m. Every penny of debts to Hayes incurred during his period of ownership were written off. For all his no doubt many faults, he was true to his word on that one.
None of which is remotely relevant. It is todays situation that is relevant not all the old controversies of the past, whatever their merits. In 2015/6 and 16/7 the club lost an average of around £500k per season (before transfers and cup runs). There is no indication that results for 17/8 when ready or 18/19 will be better. To put that into context it is equivalent to
a) c. 1000 extra people attending every game
or b) existing attendences all paying £5 per game more
or c) cutting 7-10 senior players from the squad.
If we want to maintain league football and trust ownership, somehow we have to find a way to close the vast majority of that gap. Sooner or later, the shock and anger will need to pass, the flinging of insults and insinuations cease and focus instead turn to whether and how that can be achieved. Either that or hope like hell that Kortney Hause or Kadeem Harris or Matt Ingram or Luke O'Nien careers suddenly blossom, man utd come knocking and that we still have sell-on provisions.
Some genuine questions that if you, or anyone care to put some numbers around the below, I believe will give you an indication of a way or core business is able to improve that gap in funding substantially. Fully cover the gap ? No.
I know the answer and am happy to give my valuation after you’ve considered it Dev. But my point is,and always has been, better run and with a paid management who are experienced and delivering in areas of cost control, budget management and commercial sales,we will not be receiving the accounts that are about to land that show an alarming slide in financial performance from previous set of accounts that has nothing to do with increased player wages costs in league 1.
-how much do you think our terrace sponsorship could/should be worth in clear profit per year?
-how much do you think our shorts sponsorship could/should be worth in clear profit each year?
-how much do you think our front of home shirt sponsorship could-should be worth in clean profit each year?
-do you expect the total profit value of our playing kit sponsorship to have increased in the back of a promotion season or decrease? If so by how much? 5% 25% ?
how much do you think our Beechdean stand could/should be worth in clear profit each year?
how much do you think our away stand could/should be worth in clear profit each year?
-how much do you think our cup
Sleeve sponsorship should / could be worth each year ?
How much do we receive in profit per executive box sold each year ?
How many off pitch staff pay rises,if any,do you think would be prudent/acceptable in the financial climate of a board saying we are losing too much money over the past 12-18 months?
@DevC said:
As it happens you are wrong @wformation - by £2m. Every penny of debts to Hayes incurred during his period of ownership were written off. For all his no doubt many faults, he was true to his word on that one.
But he took millions from the proceeds of the sell on clause. Semantics DevC. He drained the Trust of monies needed to run the club sensibly. Please dont play holier-than-thou and then misrepresent 'facts' yourself.
Also, you cant not include cup run and transfer assumptions each year. Even the budgets by Beeks/Kane allowed for that.
Talking of assumptions, MarlowChair seems to be suggesting (I apologise if I have misinterpreted what he’s getting at) that the club has been undersold in its commercial dealings. However, there’s a difference between what you think something is worth and what someone else might value it at. If I had a house that I thought was worth £1m it doesn’t necessarily follow that I would find a buyer prepared to pay that sum.
@wandering_jock - the only money Hayes took from future sell-on clauses was repayment of loans he took on that predated his full ownership. But as i say that is irrelevant.
In answer to your questions, Marlow - I have no idea what stand sponsorship etc should be worth - end of the day its worth whatever you can find a company prepared to pay. Same goes for executive boxes. I think we have been quite lucky to have Andrew Howard with expertise in raising sponsorship money giving his time for free. If however you have evidence rather than hope value that there is more to be got, I am sure that would be very welcome.
We could hire a full time executive to do this function (and may have to now Howard has gone) and as long as he can deliver additional sponsorship over and above his cost via salary and expenses (so if he costs £60k, he needs to deliver an additional £61k to make him worthwhile) , then his employment is worthwhile.
Re off-pitch salaries, I am afraid you have to pay whatever rate (and if necessary increases) you need to to attract/retain staff of sufficient quality for required tasks.
@wandering_jock , it is a dangerous game to rely on transfer and cup incomes. You can do it IF you can cover committed costs (eg via borrowing) if they don't materialise one year so perhaps easier to do when there is a backstop of an owner who would advance funds in an emergency - much harder and much riskier to do when there is no backstop. Businesses go out of business not because of profit or loss accounts or budget variances but because they run out of cash - if you are relying on cash from a cup run or transfer this year to pay bills but get knocked out in the first round at Accrington and Kortney Hause signs a new contract where he is, if you cant borrow - you die. You cant just say oh well it doesn't matter we'll probably have a cup run next year instead.
Dev I appreciate your response but you’ve barely touched on the questions I asked. They are asked specifically and your , or others view is important in terms of what your answers might be , take a guess and answer them. You and others have been quick to accuse me of unfounded guesswork when stating my consistent view that we are not run well under TS and the football club board and GM in place. I’m going to work you through it objectively to show you why it’s a statement I make with substance to support it. It’s what you continually ask for .
Just on your statement re Mr Howard. His role has been exceptional for our club and his personal sponsorship very important as has his contributions to funder schemes. His influence in our football has been above what anyone could ever ask.
But he doesn’t and hasn’t sold sponsorship for the club. Either for free or for a fee.
Re your statement in salaries- you believe , based on our off pitch performance, ticketing, food and beverage, shop and match day services, that we have generally an abundance of “sufficient quality” worthy of retention let alone par rises?
@marlowchair said:
Dev I appreciate your response but you’ve barely touched on the questions I asked. They are asked specifically and your , or others view is important in terms of what your answers might be , take a guess and answer them. You and others have been quick to accuse me of unfounded guesswork when stating my consistent view that we are not run well under TS and the football club board and GM in place. I’m going to work you through it objectively to show you why it’s a statement I make with substance to support it. It’s what you continually ask for .
Could you just work through it without @DevC or anyone else having to guess first? It seems a key question- can we remain supporter owned and play competitive league football by bringing in enough cash through sustainable and reasonably predictable revenue streams such as sponsorship, corporate events and so on. If someone could show me convincing numbers and that there were people willing and able to deliver those numbers I would vote for that.
I have absolutely no idea what sponsorship of a stand would be expected to generate. So any figure I gave would be complete illinformed guesswork. So for example what should the home terrace stand sponsorship generate - I've no idea - could be £50,000 but might be half or a quarter of that or ten times that, I don't know.
I look forward to you working through it objectively with evidence. Shoot.
With respect, your suggestion that all off-field staff are useless and should be replaced is silly.
For a bunch of people who don't know the numbers we can all bang on can't we?
To summarise, for some Hayes was brilliant who never asked or got any of his money back, the club cannot survive outside park football without wads of businessman cash and anyone who offers money for the club is fine. For others Hayes was an appalling shyster, the Board are inept and we should be very careful who is allowed to buy into our club. I'm off now to read some articles about Brexit...
(Again...when do we find out who Dev won't have a vote on taking over the club?)
Out of interest Wendover, has anyone ever argued that hayes was brilliant, that he never got any of his money back, that the club cannot survive outside park football or that anyone who offers money for the club is fine or indeed that we should not be very careful who is allowed to buy into the club.
We would find out any proposal the trust board believe should be voted on if and when such a proposal is agreed.
@marlowchair said:
Dev I appreciate your response but you’ve barely touched on the questions I asked. They are asked specifically and your , or others view is important in terms of what your answers might be , take a guess and answer them. You and others have been quick to accuse me of unfounded guesswork when stating my consistent view that we are not run well under TS and the football club board and GM in place. I’m going to work you through it objectively to show you why it’s a statement I make with substance to support it. It’s what you continually ask for .
Could you just work through it without @DevC or anyone else having to guess first? It seems a key question- can we remain supporter owned and play competitive league football by bringing in enough cash through sustainable and reasonably predictable revenue streams such as sponsorship, corporate events and so on. If someone could show me convincing numbers and that there were people willing and able to deliver those numbers I would vote for that.
I can manboobs I am just aware that the last time I did that with real numbers which I am knowledgable about , for the potential upside in fixing our faltering catering operation , Dev , glasshalffull etc went dizzy in their ridicule for providing baseless guesswork.
I’m trying to work through this WITH them , well everyone really , to demonstrate that even at worse case scenario guess work by supporters we are a long way from being well run & managed
I have absolutely no idea what sponsorship of a stand would be expected to generate. So any figure I gave would be complete illinformed guesswork. So for example what should the home terrace stand sponsorship generate - I've no idea - could be £50,000 but might be half or a quarter of that or ten times that, I don't know.
I look forward to you working through it objectively with evidence. Shoot.
With respect, your suggestion that all off-field staff are useless and should be replaced is silly.
I knew I shouldn’t have even entertained a genuine and thoughtful approach to this with you Dev.
I didn’t suggest what you wrongly quote of me in the last paragraph, I asked you if you thought evidential performance warranted pay rises.
I can see now why you create such frustration here Dev.
You actually , despite your best efforts l, begin to answer some of the questions....you sgree that the terrace stand sponsorship is worth some level of income for sponsorship yes?
Try answering just one question I put to you earlier , the one about increase or decrease of revenue on the back of a promotion season ?
@DevC said:
Out of interest Wendover, has anyone ever argued that hayes was brilliant, that he never got any of his money back, that the club cannot survive outside park football or that anyone who offers money for the club is fine or indeed that we should not be very careful who is allowed to buy into the club.
We would find out any proposal the trust board believe should be voted on if and when such a proposal is agreed.
The lack of self awareness in this post is award winning stuff
I believe that is what you were implying about off-field staff. I am glad you are rowing back from that one.
I don't remember any previous numbers, @marlowchair. Would you like to remind us.
The terrace sponsorship is worth some level of income if you can find someone willing to pay for it. Then you would take a view whether to sign up that offer or wait for a potential better offer down the road. Sometimes that offer will come, sometimes you wish you had taken the first offer when available. Its very similar to selling your house, (or similar still renting it on a long contract).
If I remember your question was about do I think kit sponsorship rates should increase or fall on the back of a promotion? Between league 1 and league 2, with similar levels of TV exposure and similar levels of home support, intrinsically I see no reason why they should necessarily increase or fall. So it simply comes down to what companies if any are interested and how badly they want it.
Now presumably you are going to base your narrative on a drop in shirt sponsorship value this year (which may or may not be true) and your narrative will claim that that is evidence of management incompetence. That could be true or it could be simply that there were nobody else interested at rates available when the previous deal was agreed.
For some reason the concept of rowing back has got me thinking more than the rest of the posts. Is that normal rowing or going the way the rower is facing?
Not sure how staff pay rises has now become a stick in the hand of @marlowchair ? Is it really possible to argue the Wycombe staff are overpaid?
Comments
More than Beeks and Kane ever said it would be.
He gambled on a merger with wasps and lost. He wasn’t a charity man. Let’s be clear about that.
Ffs.... get back from a nice early Friday straight to the pub from work, to be hit with this lot
@HolmerBlue , that's one heck of a session if you're just back from Friday!!
@eric_Plant I think the Quote was " It's my money I can do what I like with it".
I think he has been very helpful to the Trust since he handed over, but it was not a good idea in 2003 & 2009. We have of course had some great seasons since then, but it always seem to bring a financial crisis afterwards.
@DevC I think the original Loan repayment for the Trust was £2,000,000. He
I think that’s news to quite a few of us.
As it happens you are wrong @wformation - by £2m. Every penny of debts to Hayes incurred during his period of ownership were written off. For all his no doubt many faults, he was true to his word on that one.
None of which is remotely relevant. It is todays situation that is relevant not all the old controversies of the past, whatever their merits. In 2015/6 and 16/7 the club lost an average of around £500k per season (before transfers and cup runs). There is no indication that results for 17/8 when ready or 18/19 will be better. To put that into context it is equivalent to
a) c. 1000 extra people attending every game
or b) existing attendences all paying £5 per game more
or c) cutting 7-10 senior players from the squad.
If we want to maintain league football and trust ownership, somehow we have to find a way to close the vast majority of that gap. Sooner or later, the shock and anger will need to pass, the flinging of insults and insinuations cease and focus instead turn to whether and how that can be achieved. Either that or hope like hell that Kortney Hause or Kadeem Harris or Matt Ingram or Luke O'Nien careers suddenly blossom, man utd come knocking and that we still have sell-on provisions.
or there are other ways.
Some genuine questions that if you, or anyone care to put some numbers around the below, I believe will give you an indication of a way or core business is able to improve that gap in funding substantially. Fully cover the gap ? No.
I know the answer and am happy to give my valuation after you’ve considered it Dev. But my point is,and always has been, better run and with a paid management who are experienced and delivering in areas of cost control, budget management and commercial sales,we will not be receiving the accounts that are about to land that show an alarming slide in financial performance from previous set of accounts that has nothing to do with increased player wages costs in league 1.
-how much do you think our terrace sponsorship could/should be worth in clear profit per year?
-how much do you think our shorts sponsorship could/should be worth in clear profit each year?
-how much do you think our front of home shirt sponsorship could-should be worth in clean profit each year?
-do you expect the total profit value of our playing kit sponsorship to have increased in the back of a promotion season or decrease? If so by how much? 5% 25% ?
how much do you think our Beechdean stand could/should be worth in clear profit each year?
how much do you think our away stand could/should be worth in clear profit each year?
-how much do you think our cup
Sleeve sponsorship should / could be worth each year ?
How much do we receive in profit per executive box sold each year ?
How many off pitch staff pay rises,if any,do you think would be prudent/acceptable in the financial climate of a board saying we are losing too much money over the past 12-18 months?
Excellent post that brings some clarity to the situation @DevC and I agree with you.
But he took millions from the proceeds of the sell on clause. Semantics DevC. He drained the Trust of monies needed to run the club sensibly. Please dont play holier-than-thou and then misrepresent 'facts' yourself.
Also, you cant not include cup run and transfer assumptions each year. Even the budgets by Beeks/Kane allowed for that.
Talking of assumptions, MarlowChair seems to be suggesting (I apologise if I have misinterpreted what he’s getting at) that the club has been undersold in its commercial dealings. However, there’s a difference between what you think something is worth and what someone else might value it at. If I had a house that I thought was worth £1m it doesn’t necessarily follow that I would find a buyer prepared to pay that sum.
Haha.. oh yeah, shows how many I'd had ! ... Thursday is the new Friday !
@wandering_jock - the only money Hayes took from future sell-on clauses was repayment of loans he took on that predated his full ownership. But as i say that is irrelevant.
In answer to your questions, Marlow - I have no idea what stand sponsorship etc should be worth - end of the day its worth whatever you can find a company prepared to pay. Same goes for executive boxes. I think we have been quite lucky to have Andrew Howard with expertise in raising sponsorship money giving his time for free. If however you have evidence rather than hope value that there is more to be got, I am sure that would be very welcome.
We could hire a full time executive to do this function (and may have to now Howard has gone) and as long as he can deliver additional sponsorship over and above his cost via salary and expenses (so if he costs £60k, he needs to deliver an additional £61k to make him worthwhile) , then his employment is worthwhile.
Re off-pitch salaries, I am afraid you have to pay whatever rate (and if necessary increases) you need to to attract/retain staff of sufficient quality for required tasks.
@wandering_jock , it is a dangerous game to rely on transfer and cup incomes. You can do it IF you can cover committed costs (eg via borrowing) if they don't materialise one year so perhaps easier to do when there is a backstop of an owner who would advance funds in an emergency - much harder and much riskier to do when there is no backstop. Businesses go out of business not because of profit or loss accounts or budget variances but because they run out of cash - if you are relying on cash from a cup run or transfer this year to pay bills but get knocked out in the first round at Accrington and Kortney Hause signs a new contract where he is, if you cant borrow - you die. You cant just say oh well it doesn't matter we'll probably have a cup run next year instead.
Someone enquired about Wycombe Rye swimming pool- yes-it was refurbished recently-the current wife swims there regularly-they’ve done a good job?
@DevC, maybe you really should be better informed about what Steve Hayes actually did.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2009/jul/06/wycombe
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2009/jul/16/wycombe-footballpolitics
Really helpful and timely reminder thank you @Twizz
Dev I appreciate your response but you’ve barely touched on the questions I asked. They are asked specifically and your , or others view is important in terms of what your answers might be , take a guess and answer them. You and others have been quick to accuse me of unfounded guesswork when stating my consistent view that we are not run well under TS and the football club board and GM in place. I’m going to work you through it objectively to show you why it’s a statement I make with substance to support it. It’s what you continually ask for .
Just on your statement re Mr Howard. His role has been exceptional for our club and his personal sponsorship very important as has his contributions to funder schemes. His influence in our football has been above what anyone could ever ask.
But he doesn’t and hasn’t sold sponsorship for the club. Either for free or for a fee.
Re your statement in salaries- you believe , based on our off pitch performance, ticketing, food and beverage, shop and match day services, that we have generally an abundance of “sufficient quality” worthy of retention let alone par rises?
And in case we had forgotten where it was all leading to under Steve Hayes,
https://wycombe.vitalfootball.co.uk/an-open-letter-to-steve-hayes/
Could you just work through it without @DevC or anyone else having to guess first? It seems a key question- can we remain supporter owned and play competitive league football by bringing in enough cash through sustainable and reasonably predictable revenue streams such as sponsorship, corporate events and so on. If someone could show me convincing numbers and that there were people willing and able to deliver those numbers I would vote for that.
@marlowchair
I have absolutely no idea what sponsorship of a stand would be expected to generate. So any figure I gave would be complete illinformed guesswork. So for example what should the home terrace stand sponsorship generate - I've no idea - could be £50,000 but might be half or a quarter of that or ten times that, I don't know.
I look forward to you working through it objectively with evidence. Shoot.
With respect, your suggestion that all off-field staff are useless and should be replaced is silly.
For a bunch of people who don't know the numbers we can all bang on can't we?
To summarise, for some Hayes was brilliant who never asked or got any of his money back, the club cannot survive outside park football without wads of businessman cash and anyone who offers money for the club is fine. For others Hayes was an appalling shyster, the Board are inept and we should be very careful who is allowed to buy into our club. I'm off now to read some articles about Brexit...
(Again...when do we find out who Dev won't have a vote on taking over the club?)
Out of interest Wendover, has anyone ever argued that hayes was brilliant, that he never got any of his money back, that the club cannot survive outside park football or that anyone who offers money for the club is fine or indeed that we should not be very careful who is allowed to buy into the club.
We would find out any proposal the trust board believe should be voted on if and when such a proposal is agreed.
Ha ha! It's funny @DevC , but hyperbole and sarcasm just asked me the same thing. You've been listening to witless abuse too much.
Was it? I think that's a matter of opinion.
I can manboobs I am just aware that the last time I did that with real numbers which I am knowledgable about , for the potential upside in fixing our faltering catering operation , Dev , glasshalffull etc went dizzy in their ridicule for providing baseless guesswork.
I’m trying to work through this WITH them , well everyone really , to demonstrate that even at worse case scenario guess work by supporters we are a long way from being well run & managed
I knew I shouldn’t have even entertained a genuine and thoughtful approach to this with you Dev.
I didn’t suggest what you wrongly quote of me in the last paragraph, I asked you if you thought evidential performance warranted pay rises.
I can see now why you create such frustration here Dev.
You actually , despite your best efforts l, begin to answer some of the questions....you sgree that the terrace stand sponsorship is worth some level of income for sponsorship yes?
Try answering just one question I put to you earlier , the one about increase or decrease of revenue on the back of a promotion season ?
You should rise above answering that troll @marlowchair.
The lack of self awareness in this post is award winning stuff
I believe that is what you were implying about off-field staff. I am glad you are rowing back from that one.
I don't remember any previous numbers, @marlowchair. Would you like to remind us.
The terrace sponsorship is worth some level of income if you can find someone willing to pay for it. Then you would take a view whether to sign up that offer or wait for a potential better offer down the road. Sometimes that offer will come, sometimes you wish you had taken the first offer when available. Its very similar to selling your house, (or similar still renting it on a long contract).
If I remember your question was about do I think kit sponsorship rates should increase or fall on the back of a promotion? Between league 1 and league 2, with similar levels of TV exposure and similar levels of home support, intrinsically I see no reason why they should necessarily increase or fall. So it simply comes down to what companies if any are interested and how badly they want it.
Now presumably you are going to base your narrative on a drop in shirt sponsorship value this year (which may or may not be true) and your narrative will claim that that is evidence of management incompetence. That could be true or it could be simply that there were nobody else interested at rates available when the previous deal was agreed.
For some reason the concept of rowing back has got me thinking more than the rest of the posts. Is that normal rowing or going the way the rower is facing?
Not sure how staff pay rises has now become a stick in the hand of @marlowchair ? Is it really possible to argue the Wycombe staff are overpaid?