@glasshalffull, if you are familiar, for example, with Oxford City's disastrous encounter with an American backer, you will understand the need for extreme caution with any outsiders taking control.
Can someone clarify how much the training ground was effectively 'sold' for? Also, who the owners now are. The training ground belonged to the club before the club was put in jeopardy by Beeks/Kane/Hayes. Are any of those individuals now the owners?
Also, if we were to have artificial turf at Adams Park and therefore could train on it, and din't need the training ground, does anyone have a realistic view of the value of the training ground land with development permission?
@glasshalffull, as stated earlier in the very long thread, we all want the best for our club and that includes not just accepting that those in power are able to deliver on those wishes, especially when we fell apart so badly under the last major investor brought in by the then directors.
So, I do not see @NiceCarrots contribution as hysterical and the question he poses relating to the training ground letter is indeed extremely important.
And some supporters are hell bent on carrying out a personal vendetta against certain members of the Trust board with as yet unsubstantiated accusations and innuendo. Do you think I don’t share those concerns about the future of a club I have supported since the mid-1970’s? The difference is that I prefer to wait until all the facts are known rather than spread rumours that are at best mischievous and at worst potentially libellous.
Well if you have supported the club that long then you would have witnessed some of the previous errors of judgement and be as reluctant as the rest of us of just following blindly when told we cannot sustain our current ownership model and must seek external investment.
I have no vendetta against any of the Club or Trust Board members. However, I am worried about the consequences of turning a blind eye and not taking into consideration the past errors.
@glasshalffull "...The difference is that I prefer to wait until all the facts are known ..."
That's exactly what you said last time when some fans were trying to raise valid, serious concerns about the running of the club under Beeks / Hayes. That episode in our history ended in turmoil and financial carnage. Sometimes waiting for all the facts is too late, you have to demand them.
@Blue_since_1990
I am a little confused. Could you explain to me the relevance of a transaction agreed by a previous trust chairman to a decision now about the best interests of the club.
I fully understand Marlow and carrots want to throw as much mud as possible and their motivations. Don’t quite understand why you see this as relevant though.
There’s an obvious difference between ‘just following blindly’ and reserving judgement till all the facts are known. My reading of the September 12 meeting is that the Trust board believes the supporter owned model is unsustainable in the long term without outside investment. If that’s their considered judgement I am prepared-as were the majority at that meeting-to allow them to continue talks with outside parties before up dating members. They cannot rush through any decisions without the appropriate support.
Let’s not forget that the Trust directors are all supporters like the rest of us, they want the same thing as us-a secure future for WWWFC. To suggest that they have ulterior motives is a serious accusation unless backed by undeniable proof.
@glasshalffull said:
And some supporters are hell bent on carrying out a personal vendetta against certain members of the Trust board with as yet unsubstantiated accusations and innuendo. Do you think I don’t share those concerns about the future of a club I have supported since the mid-1970’s? The difference is that I prefer to wait until all the facts are known rather than spread rumours that are at best mischievous and at worst potentially libellous.
When the Board of what is supposed to be a SUPPORTER OWNED club only provides it's members with very carefully massaged information on financial and other matters such as the training ground ownership, it is hardly surprising that concerns are voiced on here. There is nothing that I have read on this thread that could be considered libellous. Perhaps you can identify the particular post/s.
Can you confirm whether you were a supporter of the original sale of the club to Sharkey?
@Devc I've been Wycombe regular for (I assume ) a far shorter time than you but given the events of recent times even I can see the merits of questioning the poor oppressed businessmen. You see...sometimes even they, portrait of Her Majesty, golf club, freemasonry and all, make bad decisions. You'll probably remember the quote: "Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it." ?
I note @Blue_since_1990, no answer to a reasonable question - just more abuse. La plus ca change.
You are right about increasing confusion though. For those of us interested in politics, Marlow and carrots little campaign has been a fascinating insight into Trump’s success. Insults, insinuations, conspiracy theories and accusations that those in authority are working for personal interest, no need to worry about facts or evidence. Seemingly enough to quickly convince ordinary people that those in authority, who until recently were regarded favourably, are bad people who should be thrown out. Fascinating.
I wonder if Marlow’s identity, if ever it comes to light, will turn out to be Steve Bannon.
Two things worth reading 1) Greg Styles Bucks Free Press article dated 8th July 2015 and 2) Training Ground Sale and Leaseback Questions and Answers - Amended** dated around the time of the Feb. 2014 A.G.M. which should be on the Trust board website.
The excellent Chairboys on the net is the best source of objective information especially regarding the incumbent's regime dating back to 1988.
Training ground valued at "approximately £450K" and sold for £350K, a couple of people I know valued it, with planning permission, at between £6,000,000 and £7,000,000
The "anonymous" TGF turned out to be Beeks, Sandra Kane and Camberwick Properties i.e Ian Keizner who was, or is, on the WW Sport and Education trust.
@glasshalffull do you agree that, in other not to just follow blindly, it would help for the Trust to have published the accounts before its AGM and associated elections, rather than a few weeks afterwards?
@DevC said:
I note @Blue_since_1990, no answer to a reasonable question - just more abuse. La plus ca change.
You are right about increasing confusion though. For those of us interested in politics, Marlow and carrots little campaign has been a fascinating insight into Trump’s success. Insults, insinuations, conspiracy theories and accusations that those in authority are working for personal interest, no need to worry about facts or evidence. Seemingly enough to quickly convince ordinary people that those in authority, who until recently were regarded favourably, are bad people who should be thrown out. Fascinating.
I wonder if Marlow’s identity, if ever it comes to light, will turn out to be Steve Bannon.
I know I called you "hard of thinking" earlier, but everything about this post would suggest that hard of thinking is something you could only ever dream of being. Keep pushing Dev, one day you may have an original thought.
@NiceCarrots said:
In terms of assessing motivation it might be useful to consider the chronology.
7th July 2015 Bucks Free Press announces Beeks to go back onto the F.C. board.
1st August 2015 Beeks takes his place on the F.C. board
6th August 2015 letter sent by Beeks and the gang informing that we had defaulted on the lease and had lost the training ground.
Trust members are told this letter was issued "reluctantly."
And how "this meant the option for the club to buy back the facility had come to an end." (Source: WWST Dec. 3 2015)
Since then "the artificial pitch considerations' have receded but they've allegedly had a couple of nibbles on the planning front hence the reason they are keen to host potential suitors raising concerns about the Chairman's independence.
We were told if "the training ground was ultimately sold to a third party then the TGF would allocate a share of any potential profits being generated back to the club. To be negotiated in future but the Group have a signed letter confirming the option."
Has anyone seen the letter? Does it exist? Why can't we see it?
The fact that this was written by those who stood to benefit from the deal ought in no way make one question the findings.
Just to clarify: there is confirmation on the Trust website that a letter dated 3/11/15 was sent to the Trust by the TGF regarding the Training Ground. Item 3 on the letter states as follows: " The TGF are committed to the goal of re selling the Training Ground back to the Club at the earliest opportunity subject to a mutually agreed financial consideration should the football club still require the facility. To be negotiated in the future but the Group have a signed letter confirming the option"
To be honest I don't really care if the land is worth 1p or £1m - it was purchased on the back of our 2001 FA Cup run and as such is part of our heritage. The way it was allowed to happen was an absolute scandal and at the time there appeared to be far too many Directors trying to cover there own backs and brush this under the carpet in an attempt to hide their own failings. Many of those individuals are still at the Club.
So, in the faint hope that any prospective Bidder is reading this can I ask that you place the repurchase of the Training Ground on the agenda. It might seem trivial but it is important to us. We keep being told the ground has little development value so a repurchase under original terms should be viable.
Please note that any repurchase of the Training Ground will not be highlighted as priority by the Trust Chairman for reasons obvious to us - maybe not to you.
Please put it on the agenda - you will win supporter votes if you do.
I'm glad you're interested in politics, Dev, but if you don't mind me saying so, your arguments are usually no more developed than those one would expect in a student union debate.
We've gone through Farage and Trump, but here's a slightly more appropriate analogy: your posts too often resemble the sort of material pumped out by Putin's Internet Research Agency. Ill-thought-through propaganda designed to provoke by saying something audacious and then amplifying it through mind-numbing repetition.
I wonder if your identity, if it ever comes to light, will turn out to be a Russian bot.
Good shout @Shev, not sure how i overlooked the Baby Cakes. It does seem to work, for better or worse. Most clubs reported an increase in average attendance in the year following a re-naming. But, as i said, i'm not sure this is a transferable skill...
Honestly, if I lived far far away and had no vote whilst believing wholeheartedly that the management in place would make the fine, brave, selfless, best correct decision for my club despite being challenged by poor folk far below my intellectual level, I might keep an eye on developments, but I would not bother myself getting involved in the witless abuse on here. @DevC subscribe to ifollow and put your feet up it will be better for your health.
@glasshalffull said:
There’s an obvious difference between ‘just following blindly’ and reserving judgement till all the facts are known. My reading of the September 12 meeting is that the Trust board believes the supporter owned model is unsustainable in the long term without outside investment. If that’s their considered judgement I am prepared-as were the majority at that meeting-to allow them to continue talks with outside parties before up dating members. They cannot rush through any decisions without the appropriate support.
Let’s not forget that the Trust directors are all supporters like the rest of us, they want the same thing as us-a secure future for WWWFC. To suggest that they have ulterior motives is a serious accusation unless backed by undeniable proof.
For the record I’ve never said they have ulterior motives. I just think their record and clumsiness on a number of issues dictated they are not the right men to be leading us in this grown ups negotiation.
I don’t refer to the majority of good trust directors as they have little power or say in our clubs governance or strategy.
Two of your star directors who led this sale campaign have resigned since it was announced on 12th September glasshalffull. What do you say about that ? I await with interest how even your starry eyed view of our faultless directorship can paint a positive spin on that FACT
You’re a good man with Wycombe at heart who has done plenty for the club, but you also have form of blindly encouraging and leading others to support buy outs and directors in the past that very nearly saw our club die. It was an unmitigated disaster. With utmost respect please understand why youre not helping anyone’s cause, especially those you support, by being so vocally in their camp.
Comments
@glasshalffull, if you are familiar, for example, with Oxford City's disastrous encounter with an American backer, you will understand the need for extreme caution with any outsiders taking control.
There's got to be a middle ground between carrots extreme cynicism, and glassfull's extreme everything is perfect.
Can someone clarify how much the training ground was effectively 'sold' for? Also, who the owners now are. The training ground belonged to the club before the club was put in jeopardy by Beeks/Kane/Hayes. Are any of those individuals now the owners?
Also, if we were to have artificial turf at Adams Park and therefore could train on it, and din't need the training ground, does anyone have a realistic view of the value of the training ground land with development permission?
@glasshalffull, as stated earlier in the very long thread, we all want the best for our club and that includes not just accepting that those in power are able to deliver on those wishes, especially when we fell apart so badly under the last major investor brought in by the then directors.
So, I do not see @NiceCarrots contribution as hysterical and the question he poses relating to the training ground letter is indeed extremely important.
And some supporters are hell bent on carrying out a personal vendetta against certain members of the Trust board with as yet unsubstantiated accusations and innuendo. Do you think I don’t share those concerns about the future of a club I have supported since the mid-1970’s? The difference is that I prefer to wait until all the facts are known rather than spread rumours that are at best mischievous and at worst potentially libellous.
Well if you have supported the club that long then you would have witnessed some of the previous errors of judgement and be as reluctant as the rest of us of just following blindly when told we cannot sustain our current ownership model and must seek external investment.
I have no vendetta against any of the Club or Trust Board members. However, I am worried about the consequences of turning a blind eye and not taking into consideration the past errors.
@glasshalffull "...The difference is that I prefer to wait until all the facts are known ..."
That's exactly what you said last time when some fans were trying to raise valid, serious concerns about the running of the club under Beeks / Hayes. That episode in our history ended in turmoil and financial carnage. Sometimes waiting for all the facts is too late, you have to demand them.
Spot on @wandering_jock. It is in fact bordering on naivety to not want the facts before going any further.
@Blue_since_1990
I am a little confused. Could you explain to me the relevance of a transaction agreed by a previous trust chairman to a decision now about the best interests of the club.
I fully understand Marlow and carrots want to throw as much mud as possible and their motivations. Don’t quite understand why you see this as relevant though.
There’s an obvious difference between ‘just following blindly’ and reserving judgement till all the facts are known. My reading of the September 12 meeting is that the Trust board believes the supporter owned model is unsustainable in the long term without outside investment. If that’s their considered judgement I am prepared-as were the majority at that meeting-to allow them to continue talks with outside parties before up dating members. They cannot rush through any decisions without the appropriate support.
Let’s not forget that the Trust directors are all supporters like the rest of us, they want the same thing as us-a secure future for WWWFC. To suggest that they have ulterior motives is a serious accusation unless backed by undeniable proof.
You are always confused @DevC.
@glasshalffull, I certainly don’t want them to rush through any decisions, quite the contrary!
When the Board of what is supposed to be a SUPPORTER OWNED club only provides it's members with very carefully massaged information on financial and other matters such as the training ground ownership, it is hardly surprising that concerns are voiced on here. There is nothing that I have read on this thread that could be considered libellous. Perhaps you can identify the particular post/s.
Can you confirm whether you were a supporter of the original sale of the club to Sharkey?
When do we find out who the bidders are again. I may have missed it at some point in this lengthy David Lean inspired thread.
@Devc I've been Wycombe regular for (I assume ) a far shorter time than you but given the events of recent times even I can see the merits of questioning the poor oppressed businessmen. You see...sometimes even they, portrait of Her Majesty, golf club, freemasonry and all, make bad decisions. You'll probably remember the quote: "Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it." ?
I note @Blue_since_1990, no answer to a reasonable question - just more abuse. La plus ca change.
You are right about increasing confusion though. For those of us interested in politics, Marlow and carrots little campaign has been a fascinating insight into Trump’s success. Insults, insinuations, conspiracy theories and accusations that those in authority are working for personal interest, no need to worry about facts or evidence. Seemingly enough to quickly convince ordinary people that those in authority, who until recently were regarded favourably, are bad people who should be thrown out. Fascinating.
I wonder if Marlow’s identity, if ever it comes to light, will turn out to be Steve Bannon.
F.A.O Wandering Jock
Two things worth reading 1) Greg Styles Bucks Free Press article dated 8th July 2015 and 2) Training Ground Sale and Leaseback Questions and Answers - Amended** dated around the time of the Feb. 2014 A.G.M. which should be on the Trust board website.
The excellent Chairboys on the net is the best source of objective information especially regarding the incumbent's regime dating back to 1988.
Training ground valued at "approximately £450K" and sold for £350K, a couple of people I know valued it, with planning permission, at between £6,000,000 and £7,000,000
The "anonymous" TGF turned out to be Beeks, Sandra Kane and Camberwick Properties i.e Ian Keizner who was, or is, on the WW Sport and Education trust.
The title number is: BM170608
@glasshalffull do you agree that, in other not to just follow blindly, it would help for the Trust to have published the accounts before its AGM and associated elections, rather than a few weeks afterwards?
I know I called you "hard of thinking" earlier, but everything about this post would suggest that hard of thinking is something you could only ever dream of being. Keep pushing Dev, one day you may have an original thought.
Cue post about social media.
Just to clarify: there is confirmation on the Trust website that a letter dated 3/11/15 was sent to the Trust by the TGF regarding the Training Ground. Item 3 on the letter states as follows: " The TGF are committed to the goal of re selling the Training Ground back to the Club at the earliest opportunity subject to a mutually agreed financial consideration should the football club still require the facility. To be negotiated in the future but the Group have a signed letter confirming the option"
To be honest I don't really care if the land is worth 1p or £1m - it was purchased on the back of our 2001 FA Cup run and as such is part of our heritage. The way it was allowed to happen was an absolute scandal and at the time there appeared to be far too many Directors trying to cover there own backs and brush this under the carpet in an attempt to hide their own failings. Many of those individuals are still at the Club.
So, in the faint hope that any prospective Bidder is reading this can I ask that you place the repurchase of the Training Ground on the agenda. It might seem trivial but it is important to us. We keep being told the ground has little development value so a repurchase under original terms should be viable.
Please note that any repurchase of the Training Ground will not be highlighted as priority by the Trust Chairman for reasons obvious to us - maybe not to you.
Please put it on the agenda - you will win supporter votes if you do.
I'm glad you're interested in politics, Dev, but if you don't mind me saying so, your arguments are usually no more developed than those one would expect in a student union debate.
We've gone through Farage and Trump, but here's a slightly more appropriate analogy: your posts too often resemble the sort of material pumped out by Putin's Internet Research Agency. Ill-thought-through propaganda designed to provoke by saying something audacious and then amplifying it through mind-numbing repetition.
I wonder if your identity, if it ever comes to light, will turn out to be a Russian bot.
It's almost like @aloysius and @drcongo have first noticed Dev today
DOFL
Good shout @Shev, not sure how i overlooked the Baby Cakes. It does seem to work, for better or worse. Most clubs reported an increase in average attendance in the year following a re-naming. But, as i said, i'm not sure this is a transferable skill...
Honestly, if I lived far far away and had no vote whilst believing wholeheartedly that the management in place would make the fine, brave, selfless, best correct decision for my club despite being challenged by poor folk far below my intellectual level, I might keep an eye on developments, but I would not bother myself getting involved in the witless abuse on here. @DevC subscribe to ifollow and put your feet up it will be better for your health.
Lets not derail this thread anymore, just ignore the aforementioned tosspot
For the record I’ve never said they have ulterior motives. I just think their record and clumsiness on a number of issues dictated they are not the right men to be leading us in this grown ups negotiation.
I don’t refer to the majority of good trust directors as they have little power or say in our clubs governance or strategy.
Two of your star directors who led this sale campaign have resigned since it was announced on 12th September glasshalffull. What do you say about that ? I await with interest how even your starry eyed view of our faultless directorship can paint a positive spin on that FACT
You’re a good man with Wycombe at heart who has done plenty for the club, but you also have form of blindly encouraging and leading others to support buy outs and directors in the past that very nearly saw our club die. It was an unmitigated disaster. With utmost respect please understand why youre not helping anyone’s cause, especially those you support, by being so vocally in their camp.
Oh do fuck off.
@Malone Here's where you said exactly the same thing four days ago.
https://gasroom.org/discussion/comment/90366#Comment_90366
Amazing that you could still be doubled over from laughing at your own joke, but if it helps you weave those baskets...