I agree it would be a poor show if anyone had dismissed Moore out of hand, @eric_plant. Happily, no-one has done so, so the much less fraught question of which of Sido and Moore is the preferable option can continue without any need for wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I reiterate my view that Sido would be the better option for at least the next season (bearing in mind that we don't tend to look much more than a season ahead on the whole when it comes to contracts). I dare say Moore has promise and if Gareth thought he was worth a flier, I'd be more than happy to trust his judgement. But right now, Sido is the better right back, offers a great deal more versatility and enjoys the benefit of much greater experience.
If we are playing in another league next year (can we ban the P word for a couple more weeks?) I would suggest most of the squad are more than capable of playing at that level. I would love to sign Moore as a diamond in the rough and he seems very happy here.
As for Bayo, Tyson, CMS, Bean and Saunders I would suggest that they hold more cards than the club and if they want to do something else with their lives they probably will. I spoke to Bean (a charming chap if ever there was one) and he was as good as retired last season but got talked back and is delighted he did. But I suspect that will be it for him, and he will go with my love and thanks for one of the greatest moments I can recall at AP. Bayo is brilliant in every aspect and already has a lot of life outside of WWFC if he can continue to balance I suspect he will. Similar story with Saunders. Tyson and CMS are definites for me, if they can be persuaded.
@perfidious_albion , your line "the step up is massive, as most promoted clubs discover", is something I've seen peddled around, but it's not really true is it?
Let's look at the actual evidence.
2015/16 promoted teams - Northampton, Oxford, Bristol Rovers, Wimbledon
Finished, 16,8,10,15
2016/17 promoted teams - Portsmouth, Plymouth, Doncaster, Blackpool.
Currently, 7,9,14,16
3rd in the league currently? Shrewsbury, who went up the year we should have done.
Southend who went up instead of us? 12th.
So the last 8 promoted teams all comfortably existed just outside the play offs down to 16th at worst.
I would instead suggest that while the top of league 1 is a big step up, midtable down isn't anything to worry about at all.
Agree about Tyson the pace he still has is unbelievable. I would def sign Moore if we had the chance. Harrimans shown he can act as good cover at left back if needed as he’s pretty much 2 footed leaving Moore to play on the right. Im not sure wing back will be Moore’s final position but he’s got great potential and bags of pace so def worth taking on
Tyson looks great to me. Came back from a bad injury early on and still leaves defenders standing. Same as Harriman. Just back from a bad leg break! JJ may be caught out for pace...but deserves a chance in League One for my money. El-Abd not good enough, JJ not good enough, Brown not good enough, Beano not good enough..but we've been without Stewart and Saunders and Kashket for most of the season and we're third and within a shout of great things. Luton and Accrington not that far in front of us...yet both have 'great players'. Agree with @Malone , we have a team to compete in League One so who to drop and who to retain is a testing one for Gareth. Richie will help.
There's one other player in the squad with only a year left on his contract, of course. I wonder whether the collective wisdom is that we should extend the contract for one G Ainsworth despite only making the subs' bench once this season (I think) or whether the gaffer should respectfully suggest to him his legs won't hold up one league higher and it's time to hang up the boots. The manager himself also only has a year left on his contract, of course - I suspect if we get promoted Mr Howard's first priority will be getting him to extend it. Three years, I'd say. Though zero as a player.
For my sins (and living in a town with a frequent League 1 club) I watch a few games a year at that level.
I’d say that on the whole there is a definite and significant step up in quality which we would need to address particularly at the back as i think if (big big if) we did get promotion survival would depend on our defence more than our attack. (The recent stats are a little surprising but difficult to contextualise without knowing what the promoted clubs have spent).
I am actually most happy with our midfield as Saunders (if fit), O’Nein and Gape would be an okay midfield 3 at that level (in my opinion).
I would actually be surprised to see Bayo stay if (if) we go up. He’s clearly enjoying his football at our level but week in week out against more street-wise (and better) defenders may make him question whether the daily drive round the M25/M40 is worth it.
Likewise Tyson (who has definitely still got it) may be tempted to go out on a high rather than be kicked about by defenders quick enough to catch him.
I hope/think CMS would stay though and I actually think him and Kashket would work well.
Disagree with those suggesting that we’d let JJ go. He’s not the best defender admittedly but he’s one of the very best left backs in the league and would be fine(ish) in League 1 (provided we have a mobile CB or two).
Would be very surprised if we were anywhere near meeting Moore’s agents expectation for him once (if) he gets released. I know he’s not the finished article but he’s got enough skill for richer clubs than us to be interested.
@bookertease interesting post. I'm amazed the gulf is that huge, but I'll take your word for it. I fear you are right about Moore...but then signing Gape from Southampton was a surprise for me! I would have thought L2 defenders were just as 'street-wise' as L1 ones so I think Bayo might stay to see if he can prove himself higher up. So you feel Tyson would struggle even with Championship experience? @Jonny_King I agree about Thompson.
To be fair I may be over-egging the difference. From my uncultured eye, everything does seem to be a little quicker but as I’m not particularly emotionally invested in the result I may just be less critical than I am with us.
However, as a way of explaining what I think I mean, the Wycombe of the first half of the play-off season looked like they would fit in as a pretty good League 1 team. This season’s I think would struggle - mainly because we’d have shipped a lot more goals.
Tyson is an interesting example. I did see him a few times in League 1 (which should tell you where I live) and whilst he was still quick and skilful I was left feeling a little sad as he didn’t look the player he was. With the benefit of hindsight that may be more testament to GA’s ability as a manager to enthuse his players and the fact that he was probably played out of position previously.
And as a final point said League 1 team have been dire this season and are still pretty safe from relegation and i’d fancy us to beat them so it might not be as bad as I am saying!
So in the last 4 years, we have ONE team out of the 16 promoted teams who had a real relegation battle. And they actually still stayed up. Now look at them a couple of seasons later, they're top 2!
Some of those 16 may well have had or come into money, but not all of them.
I'm not sure if it's the memory of our dreadful last campaign in league 1, where we were seriously not at the races, but it mustn't be forgotten how Hayes' ultimatum that summer cost us any chance of early recruitment.
Or maybe it's some of the huge teams that have been in league 1 recently.
However, the truth looks more to be that the top end is a big step up, but at least half of the division isn't all that great, and if anything, the momentum of a successful season can go a long way the next.
Obviously none of this is a guarantee that we'd comfortably stay up, we would certainly need to sort our defence out, but the signs are promising, and not the ominous slog some are envisioning.
Defence has obviously been the problem this season and would need the most work whether we went up or not. Saying that, if we'd been able to field a consistent back four of Harriman, El Abd, Stewart and JJ this season, and had Sido able to come in whenever needed, I think we might genuinely have been title contenders.
Shipping goals but scoring goals...it's been an exciting season. Perhaps we have to suffer a porous defence rather than trying to sit on a 1-0 for 79 minutes!
@StrongestTeam said:
A huge percentage of what we have this year is togetherness and effort, the idea that we'd want to make huge changes is laughable.
@StrongestTeam same here. Besides obvious decisions with regard to loans, or those not in favour, it will be quite tricky to reshape the first 11 without losing the present spirit I reckon.
Good point, @Username. Paul Hayes used to be considered the "experienced driving force" behind the team on the pitch and in the dressing room. But I don't think anybody would look back and say the never-say-die fighting spirit was so much better with him around (I'm not belittling Hayes' influence on the team then, or the team spirit which took us so close in 2015 - but I do think the spirit in the camp now compares favourably). Worth bearing in mind that with only 3 starters from the play-off final still in this year's squad (and only 4 of the that day's 18) we've pretty much re-built the team and retained/built on the 'spirit' of that season. GA and his management team very much to thank for that, of course.
Don't get me wrong @Username I'm not saying it's all perfect but it will be avtricky job reshaping the team to add quality without losing the team spirit, but I have every confidence has and dobbo can do it. Glad I don't have to!!
If, and it is a mighty big if, Stewart and Kashket could have a generally injury free season I am not sure we would need that much more. Obviously a new goalkeeper in the Blackman mould, another central defender to replace Muller/Scarr and two midfielders to replace Beano (assuming he retires) and Saunders (gets to many injuries). Up front I would try and get Williams to replace PCH and sign up Akinde.
I don't think any of the above would damage the spirit of the squad, particularly bearing in mind PCH doesn't currently seem to buy into the squad unity.
@mooneyman said:
If, and it is a mighty big if, Stewart and Kashket could have a generally injury free season I am not sure we would need that much more. Obviously a new goalkeeper in the Blackman mould, another central defender to replace Muller/Scarr and two midfielders to replace Beano (assuming he retires) and Saunders (gets to many injuries). Up front I would try and get Williams to replace PCH and sign up Akinde.
Don't see what makes people think that Akinde would be a good signing. His record in L2 these last 2 seasons doesn't inspire me, particularly if we reach the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Comments
I agree it would be a poor show if anyone had dismissed Moore out of hand, @eric_plant. Happily, no-one has done so, so the much less fraught question of which of Sido and Moore is the preferable option can continue without any need for wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I reiterate my view that Sido would be the better option for at least the next season (bearing in mind that we don't tend to look much more than a season ahead on the whole when it comes to contracts). I dare say Moore has promise and if Gareth thought he was worth a flier, I'd be more than happy to trust his judgement. But right now, Sido is the better right back, offers a great deal more versatility and enjoys the benefit of much greater experience.
If we are playing in another league next year (can we ban the P word for a couple more weeks?) I would suggest most of the squad are more than capable of playing at that level. I would love to sign Moore as a diamond in the rough and he seems very happy here.
As for Bayo, Tyson, CMS, Bean and Saunders I would suggest that they hold more cards than the club and if they want to do something else with their lives they probably will. I spoke to Bean (a charming chap if ever there was one) and he was as good as retired last season but got talked back and is delighted he did. But I suspect that will be it for him, and he will go with my love and thanks for one of the greatest moments I can recall at AP. Bayo is brilliant in every aspect and already has a lot of life outside of WWFC if he can continue to balance I suspect he will. Similar story with Saunders. Tyson and CMS are definites for me, if they can be persuaded.
I'm not sure enough has been made of how good Tyson still is. It's absolutely extraordinary
@perfidious_albion , your line "the step up is massive, as most promoted clubs discover", is something I've seen peddled around, but it's not really true is it?
Let's look at the actual evidence.
2015/16 promoted teams - Northampton, Oxford, Bristol Rovers, Wimbledon
Finished, 16,8,10,15
2016/17 promoted teams - Portsmouth, Plymouth, Doncaster, Blackpool.
Currently, 7,9,14,16
3rd in the league currently? Shrewsbury, who went up the year we should have done.
Southend who went up instead of us? 12th.
So the last 8 promoted teams all comfortably existed just outside the play offs down to 16th at worst.
I would instead suggest that while the top of league 1 is a big step up, midtable down isn't anything to worry about at all.
Agree about Tyson the pace he still has is unbelievable. I would def sign Moore if we had the chance. Harrimans shown he can act as good cover at left back if needed as he’s pretty much 2 footed leaving Moore to play on the right. Im not sure wing back will be Moore’s final position but he’s got great potential and bags of pace so def worth taking on
No surprise at all if Tyson were offered a year renewal. But two years at aged 36, really?
Agreed. Unbelievable pace and goal threat still.
He's had a great season
Tyson looks great to me. Came back from a bad injury early on and still leaves defenders standing. Same as Harriman. Just back from a bad leg break! JJ may be caught out for pace...but deserves a chance in League One for my money. El-Abd not good enough, JJ not good enough, Brown not good enough, Beano not good enough..but we've been without Stewart and Saunders and Kashket for most of the season and we're third and within a shout of great things. Luton and Accrington not that far in front of us...yet both have 'great players'. Agree with @Malone , we have a team to compete in League One so who to drop and who to retain is a testing one for Gareth. Richie will help.
There's one other player in the squad with only a year left on his contract, of course. I wonder whether the collective wisdom is that we should extend the contract for one G Ainsworth despite only making the subs' bench once this season (I think) or whether the gaffer should respectfully suggest to him his legs won't hold up one league higher and it's time to hang up the boots. The manager himself also only has a year left on his contract, of course - I suspect if we get promoted Mr Howard's first priority will be getting him to extend it. Three years, I'd say. Though zero as a player.
he also needs a shave and a bloody haircut
For my sins (and living in a town with a frequent League 1 club) I watch a few games a year at that level.
I’d say that on the whole there is a definite and significant step up in quality which we would need to address particularly at the back as i think if (big big if) we did get promotion survival would depend on our defence more than our attack. (The recent stats are a little surprising but difficult to contextualise without knowing what the promoted clubs have spent).
I am actually most happy with our midfield as Saunders (if fit), O’Nein and Gape would be an okay midfield 3 at that level (in my opinion).
I would actually be surprised to see Bayo stay if (if) we go up. He’s clearly enjoying his football at our level but week in week out against more street-wise (and better) defenders may make him question whether the daily drive round the M25/M40 is worth it.
Likewise Tyson (who has definitely still got it) may be tempted to go out on a high rather than be kicked about by defenders quick enough to catch him.
I hope/think CMS would stay though and I actually think him and Kashket would work well.
Disagree with those suggesting that we’d let JJ go. He’s not the best defender admittedly but he’s one of the very best left backs in the league and would be fine(ish) in League 1 (provided we have a mobile CB or two).
Would be very surprised if we were anywhere near meeting Moore’s agents expectation for him once (if) he gets released. I know he’s not the finished article but he’s got enough skill for richer clubs than us to be interested.
@Glenactico Would Curtis Thompson fit the bill for a more mobile Bean replacement? I've not seen a lot of him, but what I have seen I've liked.
@bookertease interesting post. I'm amazed the gulf is that huge, but I'll take your word for it. I fear you are right about Moore...but then signing Gape from Southampton was a surprise for me! I would have thought L2 defenders were just as 'street-wise' as L1 ones so I think Bayo might stay to see if he can prove himself higher up. So you feel Tyson would struggle even with Championship experience? @Jonny_King I agree about Thompson.
To be fair I may be over-egging the difference. From my uncultured eye, everything does seem to be a little quicker but as I’m not particularly emotionally invested in the result I may just be less critical than I am with us.
However, as a way of explaining what I think I mean, the Wycombe of the first half of the play-off season looked like they would fit in as a pretty good League 1 team. This season’s I think would struggle - mainly because we’d have shipped a lot more goals.
Tyson is an interesting example. I did see him a few times in League 1 (which should tell you where I live) and whilst he was still quick and skilful I was left feeling a little sad as he didn’t look the player he was. With the benefit of hindsight that may be more testament to GA’s ability as a manager to enthuse his players and the fact that he was probably played out of position previously.
And as a final point said League 1 team have been dire this season and are still pretty safe from relegation and i’d fancy us to beat them so it might not be as bad as I am saying!
@Wendoverman , the gulf ISN'T that great, it's a strange myth that's started spreading.
@bookertease definitely overstates it.
I earlier gave the last 2 years of evidence of how 8 promoted teams had fared after promotion from league 2 -the result being comfy midtable at worst.
Let's go back further
2014/15 Burton, Shrewsbury,Bury, Southend 2,20,14,15
2013/14 Chesterfield,Scunthorpe,Rochdale, Fleetwood 6,16,8,10
So in the last 4 years, we have ONE team out of the 16 promoted teams who had a real relegation battle. And they actually still stayed up. Now look at them a couple of seasons later, they're top 2!
Some of those 16 may well have had or come into money, but not all of them.
I'm not sure if it's the memory of our dreadful last campaign in league 1, where we were seriously not at the races, but it mustn't be forgotten how Hayes' ultimatum that summer cost us any chance of early recruitment.
Or maybe it's some of the huge teams that have been in league 1 recently.
However, the truth looks more to be that the top end is a big step up, but at least half of the division isn't all that great, and if anything, the momentum of a successful season can go a long way the next.
Obviously none of this is a guarantee that we'd comfortably stay up, we would certainly need to sort our defence out, but the signs are promising, and not the ominous slog some are envisioning.
Defence has obviously been the problem this season and would need the most work whether we went up or not. Saying that, if we'd been able to field a consistent back four of Harriman, El Abd, Stewart and JJ this season, and had Sido able to come in whenever needed, I think we might genuinely have been title contenders.
Shipping goals but scoring goals...it's been an exciting season. Perhaps we have to suffer a porous defence rather than trying to sit on a 1-0 for 79 minutes!
Who is saying they’d want massive changes?
@StrongestTeam same here. Besides obvious decisions with regard to loans, or those not in favour, it will be quite tricky to reshape the first 11 without losing the present spirit I reckon.
You do need to improve the quality as well though, who's to say new players couldn't add to the "spirit"?
Good point, @Username. Paul Hayes used to be considered the "experienced driving force" behind the team on the pitch and in the dressing room. But I don't think anybody would look back and say the never-say-die fighting spirit was so much better with him around (I'm not belittling Hayes' influence on the team then, or the team spirit which took us so close in 2015 - but I do think the spirit in the camp now compares favourably). Worth bearing in mind that with only 3 starters from the play-off final still in this year's squad (and only 4 of the that day's 18) we've pretty much re-built the team and retained/built on the 'spirit' of that season. GA and his management team very much to thank for that, of course.
Don't get me wrong @Username I'm not saying it's all perfect but it will be avtricky job reshaping the team to add quality without losing the team spirit, but I have every confidence has and dobbo can do it. Glad I don't have to!!
If, and it is a mighty big if, Stewart and Kashket could have a generally injury free season I am not sure we would need that much more. Obviously a new goalkeeper in the Blackman mould, another central defender to replace Muller/Scarr and two midfielders to replace Beano (assuming he retires) and Saunders (gets to many injuries). Up front I would try and get Williams to replace PCH and sign up Akinde.
I don't think any of the above would damage the spirit of the squad, particularly bearing in mind PCH doesn't currently seem to buy into the squad unity.
why's everyone on Cowan-Hall's back all of a sudden?
He's done really well this season
Someone claimed that he's "fallen out" with GA, hence his omission from the bench Saturday.
I rate him as a player, but he does make it very obvious when he's not happy (not starting/ subbed off) which I can imagine doesn't go down too well.
He's been really unlucky not to start more, I'm sure he'd start most games for most teams at this level.
There were a couple of somewhat sulky performances followed by the mystery dropping, rumoured to be down to a falling out with Gareth.
I went to a party once where there was a mystery dropping.
Also, our form possibly took a bit of a dip around the time he stopped getting starts - there's a distinct possibility it's having knock on effects.
Good thing we don't need too much more then ;-)
Don't see what makes people think that Akinde would be a good signing. His record in L2 these last 2 seasons doesn't inspire me, particularly if we reach the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.