They'll be getting the T shirts out next, wonder if the Suarez guy is still handy to mock some up.
I can only remember Arsenal "magnanimously" offering up a replay to Sheff Utd (was it?) years back, after one of their guys cynically played on and scored. But they knew that they'd comfortably win the replayed game, as their opponents had one chance to win and it was that day, cruelly denied.
I know thems the rules but for me a toe/foot/arm/arse over a designated line still does not constitute a fantastic advantage. I'm happy to remain appalled at poor quality official decisions at our level.
Bad move by Klopp to say that, because I could see it shifting a lot of opinion from "Liverpool were robbed" to "Liverpool are so entitled they think they deserve to have games replayed".
@Shev I don't think they seriously think that they will get a replay, this is just posturing so that officials will refrain from giving anything against them for the next few months for fear of the media backlash. They even appealed Curtis Jones' nailed on red card and had a moan when it didn't get rescinded. They were lucky to not have a game added on for the frivolous challenge but you can see that the FA don't have the stomach for the additional outrage. My guess is that they will still be bringing this up next March, we should have a sweepstake on it.
The thing I haven’t seen discussed or even mentioned in the whole VAR debate is the human factor.
Whenever humans are involved there is the capacity for mistakes. Always has been, always will be.
The expectation that VAR will get all of the decisions right, all of the time is and always will be a bizarre fallacy. It’s never going to be that way while humans are involved.
What it is and does do, is reduce the number of mistakes. Previously we might have had 3 or 4 decisions like this in a game (in the wrong game) or at least over the course of a footballing weekend.
How many decisions from the Portsmouth game are were still discussing that probably would have been picked up with VAR? Their winning goal? Phillips’ near assault on a pompy player? That’s two and I’ve only seen highlights of the game.
Look, I don’t like VAR, but people need to get off their high horse when one decision overrides all the good football that happened for the weekend.
We have one error we’re talking about instead of several every game. That’s an improvement.
And while we have humans involved in the decisions errors will always creep in.
Expectations people, lower your expectations to something credible.
Edit:That said there are things that can be done to reduce the load on VAR….
one, if it’s true, make sure the team doing it havent just flown back from the UAE where they worked as is one. Insure there’s enough rest periods - fatigue will always end in mistakes.
Two - the constant criticism itself piles pressure and stress. Which again results in mistakes.
What do we want? No VAR and the understanding of lots of mistakes
Or VAR and the understanding of fewer but not zero mistakes?
Wasn’t meant as a defence if VAR. it was meant as a reality check for people’s expectations that Humans - in whatever capacity make mistakes. Pilots don’t crash planes on purpose (most of the time), they make mistakes. Likely due to many different Human factors and if it wasn’t a pilot error, but a mechanical failure they investigate all the way down the chain as to what, why and how the mistake was made. Not to punish anyone but to put new processes in place to ensure mistakes don’t happen again.
VAR’s, you, me, everyone will make mistakes in their workplace. We do our best to mitigate them, sure, but you can’t cut them out completely. That’s kinda the definition of a mistake. We have to be grown up enough to understand it.
the Liverpool decision(s) were the VAR equivalent of a plane crash. It needs to be investigated, new processes put in place and learn from it.
That doesn’t mean a similar but different plane crash of a decision won’t happen the week after.
We just have to repeat the process and eventually, things get better. But it takes years and years of hard work and understanding in the background.
But VAR can go for all I care but with that we have to accept mistakes will be make by referees by an astonishingly high factor without it.
On a 30 second scroll through X just now, I have seen people annoyed at the QPR keeper getting a red card after bamfords dive last night and the Hull ref missing a rugby tackle.
That’s the norm and how it was pre VAR. get it gone and live with that reality. I’m happy that mistakes get made roughly equally as a season goes on.
annoying when it goes against you, yes. But that’s football.
I don’t disagree. We don’t have it at our level and I am happy with that. I barely watch premier league football that does have it.
But we would likely have had draw against Portsmouth with it.
It’s swings and roundabouts. I’m comfortable that it should have been a foul on max but missed. We’ll probably have a similar one go for us in the future.
One of the saddest things about var is that instead of talking about how great a player was, analysing their performance, we have to sit through 15 minutes of waffling about refereeing decisions. It’s not enjoyable listening to ref arguments every week.
It would be interesting to get a view from @glasshalffull as to whether he considers the introduction of VAR has improved football at the highest level. If so, would he like it to be extended to all EFL divisions. Would his answers be the same with his presenters hat on as with his Wycombe hat on?
I can't remember anyone suggesting VAR would be perfect but it doesn't actually cut the controversy, if anything it doubles it as the VAR decision is also controversial. It also comes at a cost to the fan experience and undermines refs.
We have implemented it horribly but it's basic premise as enhancing the game by getting the majority of decisions right , increasing accountability and being used with a minimum of fuss only where clear and obvious errors have taken place seems to have failed horribly.
If we had it in the Pompey game you might have better angles of the goal but you'd still have one guys opinion followed by him being shamed publicly as having made a possible error and then some weird combination of someone else's opinion and his regret.
VAR was brought in because of Money. Teams were complaining that points were dropped here and there because of an incorrect decision. Now, the opposition is happening.....
I think the sending off of the Liverpool player the other day (the first one) is a classic example of why the VAR concept is so flawed. The original decision to book the Liverpool player was, in terms of the game and the action a perfectly reasonable and proportionate response by the referee and the correct decision (in my opinion). Slowed down and seen from numerous angles what was a slightly mistimed attempt for the ball became a 'dangerous tackle' and they overrule the referee. Both decisions are defensible, but the one the referee made was the 'better' one.
Forget binning VAR, they need to seriously UP the tech.
Chips on every player, the ball, and every zone of the pitch.
That would then allow for immediate decisions on offside and take the human element out.
Obviously you can never win with decisions that aren't black or white fact.
Some people still genuinely think Liverpool's guy who trod high above that player's ankle wasn't a red. So in that climate you'll simply never get a consensus.
Agree with this and believe Klopp is doing a Mourinho impression here deflecting attention from his team’s defeat and their poor disciplinary record this season at the same time as creating a siege (everyone is against us) mentality to help his newly put together team (particularly midfield) gel.
This is a club that actually produced t shirts to back their racist player. Plus used the furlough system until ferocious media scorn made them back track.
To be fair I don’t know the rules well enough. It wasn’t (in my view) a reckless tackle, but concede it became dangerous.
It doesn’t feel to me that should be punished with a red card but then I do remember a time when full blooded assault (JC for example) only merited a booking.
I see Liverpool went ahead tonight through a goal which was the result of a human error by the opposition’s goalkeeper and changed the course of the game. I guess the goalkeeper might want to ask for the game to be replayed or perhaps Klopp might offer it? 😉
Comments
A replay 🤣
They'll be getting the T shirts out next, wonder if the Suarez guy is still handy to mock some up.
I can only remember Arsenal "magnanimously" offering up a replay to Sheff Utd (was it?) years back, after one of their guys cynically played on and scored. But they knew that they'd comfortably win the replayed game, as their opponents had one chance to win and it was that day, cruelly denied.
I know thems the rules but for me a toe/foot/arm/arse over a designated line still does not constitute a fantastic advantage. I'm happy to remain appalled at poor quality official decisions at our level.
Is your 🤣 key stuck @Malone? Appears in pretty much all your posts lately.
Agreed. And at our level, you'd hope that the benefit of any doubt about said toe/foot/arm/arse is given to the attacker, as it should be.
Perhaps we can replay that game at Loftus Road, it's not too late.
Bad move by Klopp to say that, because I could see it shifting a lot of opinion from "Liverpool were robbed" to "Liverpool are so entitled they think they deserve to have games replayed".
@Shev I don't think they seriously think that they will get a replay, this is just posturing so that officials will refrain from giving anything against them for the next few months for fear of the media backlash. They even appealed Curtis Jones' nailed on red card and had a moan when it didn't get rescinded. They were lucky to not have a game added on for the frivolous challenge but you can see that the FA don't have the stomach for the additional outrage. My guess is that they will still be bringing this up next March, we should have a sweepstake on it.
🤣
ps - if we do have a sweepstake on it, I bagsy Saturday 4th May 2024.
No laughter for this one.
Just watching the footage of it now is positively rage inducing even 20 odd years on.
The thing I haven’t seen discussed or even mentioned in the whole VAR debate is the human factor.
Whenever humans are involved there is the capacity for mistakes. Always has been, always will be.
The expectation that VAR will get all of the decisions right, all of the time is and always will be a bizarre fallacy. It’s never going to be that way while humans are involved.
What it is and does do, is reduce the number of mistakes. Previously we might have had 3 or 4 decisions like this in a game (in the wrong game) or at least over the course of a footballing weekend.
How many decisions from the Portsmouth game are were still discussing that probably would have been picked up with VAR? Their winning goal? Phillips’ near assault on a pompy player? That’s two and I’ve only seen highlights of the game.
Look, I don’t like VAR, but people need to get off their high horse when one decision overrides all the good football that happened for the weekend.
We have one error we’re talking about instead of several every game. That’s an improvement.
And while we have humans involved in the decisions errors will always creep in.
Expectations people, lower your expectations to something credible.
Edit:That said there are things that can be done to reduce the load on VAR….
one, if it’s true, make sure the team doing it havent just flown back from the UAE where they worked as is one. Insure there’s enough rest periods - fatigue will always end in mistakes.
Two - the constant criticism itself piles pressure and stress. Which again results in mistakes.
What do we want? No VAR and the understanding of lots of mistakes
Or VAR and the understanding of fewer but not zero mistakes?
That is the flimsiest defence of VAR that I have ever seen
Easy question to answer. No VAR please.
Wasn’t meant as a defence if VAR. it was meant as a reality check for people’s expectations that Humans - in whatever capacity make mistakes. Pilots don’t crash planes on purpose (most of the time), they make mistakes. Likely due to many different Human factors and if it wasn’t a pilot error, but a mechanical failure they investigate all the way down the chain as to what, why and how the mistake was made. Not to punish anyone but to put new processes in place to ensure mistakes don’t happen again.
VAR’s, you, me, everyone will make mistakes in their workplace. We do our best to mitigate them, sure, but you can’t cut them out completely. That’s kinda the definition of a mistake. We have to be grown up enough to understand it.
the Liverpool decision(s) were the VAR equivalent of a plane crash. It needs to be investigated, new processes put in place and learn from it.
That doesn’t mean a similar but different plane crash of a decision won’t happen the week after.
We just have to repeat the process and eventually, things get better. But it takes years and years of hard work and understanding in the background.
But VAR can go for all I care but with that we have to accept mistakes will be make by referees by an astonishingly high factor without it.
On a 30 second scroll through X just now, I have seen people annoyed at the QPR keeper getting a red card after bamfords dive last night and the Hull ref missing a rugby tackle.
That’s the norm and how it was pre VAR. get it gone and live with that reality. I’m happy that mistakes get made roughly equally as a season goes on.
annoying when it goes against you, yes. But that’s football.
I don’t disagree. We don’t have it at our level and I am happy with that. I barely watch premier league football that does have it.
But we would likely have had draw against Portsmouth with it.
It’s swings and roundabouts. I’m comfortable that it should have been a foul on max but missed. We’ll probably have a similar one go for us in the future.
Are the benefits of VAR worth the cost (in terms of flow of the game rather than money)?
I’d say it’s a clear no at the moment.
One of the saddest things about var is that instead of talking about how great a player was, analysing their performance, we have to sit through 15 minutes of waffling about refereeing decisions. It’s not enjoyable listening to ref arguments every week.
It would be interesting to get a view from @glasshalffull as to whether he considers the introduction of VAR has improved football at the highest level. If so, would he like it to be extended to all EFL divisions. Would his answers be the same with his presenters hat on as with his Wycombe hat on?
I can't remember anyone suggesting VAR would be perfect but it doesn't actually cut the controversy, if anything it doubles it as the VAR decision is also controversial. It also comes at a cost to the fan experience and undermines refs.
We have implemented it horribly but it's basic premise as enhancing the game by getting the majority of decisions right , increasing accountability and being used with a minimum of fuss only where clear and obvious errors have taken place seems to have failed horribly.
If we had it in the Pompey game you might have better angles of the goal but you'd still have one guys opinion followed by him being shamed publicly as having made a possible error and then some weird combination of someone else's opinion and his regret.
VAR was brought in because of Money. Teams were complaining that points were dropped here and there because of an incorrect decision. Now, the opposition is happening.....
I think the sending off of the Liverpool player the other day (the first one) is a classic example of why the VAR concept is so flawed. The original decision to book the Liverpool player was, in terms of the game and the action a perfectly reasonable and proportionate response by the referee and the correct decision (in my opinion). Slowed down and seen from numerous angles what was a slightly mistimed attempt for the ball became a 'dangerous tackle' and they overrule the referee. Both decisions are defensible, but the one the referee made was the 'better' one.
Forget binning VAR, they need to seriously UP the tech.
Chips on every player, the ball, and every zone of the pitch.
That would then allow for immediate decisions on offside and take the human element out.
Obviously you can never win with decisions that aren't black or white fact.
Some people still genuinely think Liverpool's guy who trod high above that player's ankle wasn't a red. So in that climate you'll simply never get a consensus.
It wasn't a better one though, because by your own explanation, it was a dangerous challenge when watching it properly, that the ref had missed.
The only thing that would make VAR better is playing elevator music for the five minutes it takes to make a decision, if only for the bantz.
Or a firework display!
Agree with this and believe Klopp is doing a Mourinho impression here deflecting attention from his team’s defeat and their poor disciplinary record this season at the same time as creating a siege (everyone is against us) mentality to help his newly put together team (particularly midfield) gel.
Yes, agree with both of you too as far as Klopp not expecting a replay. I just think it makes his club look massively entitled, and may backfire.
This is a club that actually produced t shirts to back their racist player. Plus used the furlough system until ferocious media scorn made them back track.
To be fair I don’t know the rules well enough. It wasn’t (in my view) a reckless tackle, but concede it became dangerous.
It doesn’t feel to me that should be punished with a red card but then I do remember a time when full blooded assault (JC for example) only merited a booking.
I see Liverpool went ahead tonight through a goal which was the result of a human error by the opposition’s goalkeeper and changed the course of the game. I guess the goalkeeper might want to ask for the game to be replayed or perhaps Klopp might offer it? 😉