@DevC My earlier point was that the information in the accounts are not clear. Numbers without narrative are not helpful.
Inter-group company loans are not normally anything to worry about as long as they are explained.
Having cleared up the accounting issue, lets turn back to Steve Peart's point.
It is for those fans able to go regularly to decide the clubs future far more than those of us who now live remotely.
For what it is worth, my advice would be - vote for a pragmatist willing to look at all proposals with an open mind determining as best he/she can what is in the best interests of the club rather than an ideologue with a closed predetermined mind.
While all proposals should be looked at with an open mind, direction of travel depends on a better understanding of the numbers than I (and I suspect others) have.
If the numbers show that there is a reasonable prospect of the current relative success continuing and a reasonable prospect of the club remaining at least in Lg2 with possible excursions into Lg1 under the current structure, then I would be minded to retain the current structure unless a very compelling alternative came along.
If however the numbers show that the current relative success is a result of exceptional management, but the best we can do with the current structure is a bottom four or five Lg2 playing budget, I would see it as highly likely that sooner or later in the next decade relegation will follow. I would then want to look at whether sustainability could be achieved in Conference or whether finances there are even madder and current structure would lead to further falls (as Torquay are finding). If that is the realistic scenario, then I would be more open towards an alternative structure that come along.
As I say though, not really a decision for me, even if an option did come along which as far as I know is not imminent.
I'm with Steve Peart. I'd rather live our lives as a supporters run club, in whatever direction that takes, that join the circus that is professional football at the moment.
The bubble will eventually burst and when that happens we will be in a very good place if we are sustainably run
I'm with you too @bookertease - but that's a big IF in your last sentence. Accounts for the last few years have shown commercial losses on 'ordinary activities' remaining quite high, propped up by the Ibe money, the play-off final and the FA Cup runs to Villa and Spurs. I think we will only learn how sustainable the club currently is when we have a "normal" season without player sales or cup run income.
I agree with all the posters here who say we are better off in the hands of the Trust than the perils of private ownership. But I think the Trust has a lot more to achieve in terms of cost-cutting and revenue performance before we can safely call the club "sustainable" in its current form.
So long as we remain in the professional leagues, I can't honestly say I'd spend most of my Saturdays watching us if we were part time cloggers in the bottom half of the conference south.
If we dropped down to Conference South, I think we all expect our attendances would fall by thousands. This means there are plenty of people out there who don't want to watch Tier 6 football. At least he's honest.
@Wendoverman I feel that is probably the current strategy. It troubles me slightly. We have a very capable squad of players, but given the average age, it's unlikely that any of our current owned players will command a transfer fee. We have a stake in any future transfers for Kortney Hause and Matt Ingram, but neither are getting a lot of football at the moment. And we have a very good opportunity this year to reach the FA Cup 3rd round for an unprecedented third consecutive occasion, but even if that's achieved we'd need the draw to be kind to us before that generates a worthy income. With the best will in the world, footballing income requires quite a bit of luck, and we will run out of that at some point. When this happens, we will only be able to sustain ourselves with a break-even commercial business, or with outside investment to bridge the gap. I'd prefer the former over the latter any day, but I'm no closer to understanding if/how this can be achieved, and what progress (if any) the current management are making towards that goal.
Fair enough, @CarrotPeeler. I imagine there are few clubs that can both sustain themselves in League Two and remain financially stable without being at least to some degree reliant on the odd cup run and/or player sale.
So Dooley, and having not really followed all this gigantic thread, are you saying we are back in the brown stuff regarding our finances? It was only a few weeks ago that people on here were talking about having a new academy structure next season.
Are you also suggesting that the people running the club have failed and are now hiding the true financial situation from us all?
I also read that some other doom and gloom merchants are now forecasting a future akin to Torquay United.
@Midlander Yes. They are all fine players but with the exception of Kashket (who has a poor injury record) they are all 23 or older. I would be delighted to be wrong (although of course disappointed to lose them as well)
@ DevC you missed one, It is clearly outrageous that Members of the 500 Club(Members of the Trust) are contributing direct to WWFC. Their contributions should be going to the Trust with the request that they should be given to WWFC to reduce our debt to them. I'm sorry if I am being practical rather than cynical as per your post.
Hi Mr Wfor.
I was just parodying Mr Dooley's post. Not being entirely serious. Indeed the off-field management of the club in Andrew Howards time seems to have been very good to me.
Don't get excited about debt between WWFC, FALL and WWST. Makes no difference. To all practical purposes they are one entity.
@DevC There is one practical purpose which is a distinct difference, namely the Frank Adams Legacy Limited, which should safeguard the Stadium from a failure of the Football Club. With the Trust having a Debt to the football club, should they fail and the Trust has a large sum owed to WWFC the status of the FALL property could be in jeopardy. In my view funds provide by the Members should only go to WWFC as a Loan, not as a straight donation. The Members Share Capital raised is the only other major Trust source of Income and that appears to have been used to assist FALL to reduce their outstanding commitments and to loan funds to WWFC.
I’m uncertain if you are replying to me StrongestTeam however perhaps I should clarify that the five trust directors I chatted with about the pending AGM indicated unanimous support for trust ownership
Dooley, you appear to be trying to dig some dirt but it seems to me that you haven’t got any real substance on which to base your vailed accusations. Someone or something at the club seems to have upset you quite a bit.
Comments
@DevC My earlier point was that the information in the accounts are not clear. Numbers without narrative are not helpful.
Inter-group company loans are not normally anything to worry about as long as they are explained.
Having cleared up the accounting issue, lets turn back to Steve Peart's point.
It is for those fans able to go regularly to decide the clubs future far more than those of us who now live remotely.
For what it is worth, my advice would be - vote for a pragmatist willing to look at all proposals with an open mind determining as best he/she can what is in the best interests of the club rather than an ideologue with a closed predetermined mind.
While all proposals should be looked at with an open mind, direction of travel depends on a better understanding of the numbers than I (and I suspect others) have.
If the numbers show that there is a reasonable prospect of the current relative success continuing and a reasonable prospect of the club remaining at least in Lg2 with possible excursions into Lg1 under the current structure, then I would be minded to retain the current structure unless a very compelling alternative came along.
If however the numbers show that the current relative success is a result of exceptional management, but the best we can do with the current structure is a bottom four or five Lg2 playing budget, I would see it as highly likely that sooner or later in the next decade relegation will follow. I would then want to look at whether sustainability could be achieved in Conference or whether finances there are even madder and current structure would lead to further falls (as Torquay are finding). If that is the realistic scenario, then I would be more open towards an alternative structure that come along.
As I say though, not really a decision for me, even if an option did come along which as far as I know is not imminent.
Didn't realise today was Groundhog Day.
Copy, paste, repeat
I'm with Steve Peart. I'd rather live our lives as a supporters run club, in whatever direction that takes, that join the circus that is professional football at the moment.
The bubble will eventually burst and when that happens we will be in a very good place if we are sustainably run
Well said @bookertease. 100% agree.
+1 here @bookertease and @Steve_Peart
Yup. Totally with you, @bookertease.
I'm with you too @bookertease - but that's a big IF in your last sentence. Accounts for the last few years have shown commercial losses on 'ordinary activities' remaining quite high, propped up by the Ibe money, the play-off final and the FA Cup runs to Villa and Spurs. I think we will only learn how sustainable the club currently is when we have a "normal" season without player sales or cup run income.
I agree with all the posters here who say we are better off in the hands of the Trust than the perils of private ownership. But I think the Trust has a lot more to achieve in terms of cost-cutting and revenue performance before we can safely call the club "sustainable" in its current form.
So long as we remain in the professional leagues, I can't honestly say I'd spend most of my Saturdays watching us if we were part time cloggers in the bottom half of the conference south.
Good to be able to count on your support @Username . Nice to know you've got our backs if we have a couple of disappointing seasons.
If we dropped down to Conference South, I think we all expect our attendances would fall by thousands. This means there are plenty of people out there who don't want to watch Tier 6 football. At least he's honest.
Let's hope there's always players sales and a cup run or two every season then!
@Wendoverman I feel that is probably the current strategy. It troubles me slightly. We have a very capable squad of players, but given the average age, it's unlikely that any of our current owned players will command a transfer fee. We have a stake in any future transfers for Kortney Hause and Matt Ingram, but neither are getting a lot of football at the moment. And we have a very good opportunity this year to reach the FA Cup 3rd round for an unprecedented third consecutive occasion, but even if that's achieved we'd need the draw to be kind to us before that generates a worthy income. With the best will in the world, footballing income requires quite a bit of luck, and we will run out of that at some point. When this happens, we will only be able to sustain ourselves with a break-even commercial business, or with outside investment to bridge the gap. I'd prefer the former over the latter any day, but I'm no closer to understanding if/how this can be achieved, and what progress (if any) the current management are making towards that goal.
We must enjoy every day as it comes @CarrotPeeler for tomorrow we might go under a bus!
Fair enough, @CarrotPeeler. I imagine there are few clubs that can both sustain themselves in League Two and remain financially stable without being at least to some degree reliant on the odd cup run and/or player sale.
So Dooley, and having not really followed all this gigantic thread, are you saying we are back in the brown stuff regarding our finances? It was only a few weeks ago that people on here were talking about having a new academy structure next season.
Are you also suggesting that the people running the club have failed and are now hiding the true financial situation from us all?
I also read that some other doom and gloom merchants are now forecasting a future akin to Torquay United.
It is clearly outrageous that the clubs accountants should prepare the accounts in the legally prescribed format.
It is clearly outrageous that promotion has not yet been achieved
It is clearly outrageous that the ground does not sell out every week (have the club not heard of facebook advertising - surefire sale I am told)
It is clearly outrageous that the club pays its professional players
Dev, I think you need to see a GP.
@CarrotPeeler do you really think all of Harriman, Stewart, O’Nien, Gape, Kashket and Cowan-Hall will not command a transfer fee?
Hard to see any of them going for a material fee at present midlander, surely.
@Midlander Yes. They are all fine players but with the exception of Kashket (who has a poor injury record) they are all 23 or older. I would be delighted to be wrong (although of course disappointed to lose them as well)
@ DevC you missed one, It is clearly outrageous that Members of the 500 Club(Members of the Trust) are contributing direct to WWFC. Their contributions should be going to the Trust with the request that they should be given to WWFC to reduce our debt to them. I'm sorry if I am being practical rather than cynical as per your post.
Hi Mr Wfor.
I was just parodying Mr Dooley's post. Not being entirely serious. Indeed the off-field management of the club in Andrew Howards time seems to have been very good to me.
Don't get excited about debt between WWFC, FALL and WWST. Makes no difference. To all practical purposes they are one entity.
@DevC There is one practical purpose which is a distinct difference, namely the Frank Adams Legacy Limited, which should safeguard the Stadium from a failure of the Football Club. With the Trust having a Debt to the football club, should they fail and the Trust has a large sum owed to WWFC the status of the FALL property could be in jeopardy. In my view funds provide by the Members should only go to WWFC as a Loan, not as a straight donation. The Members Share Capital raised is the only other major Trust source of Income and that appears to have been used to assist FALL to reduce their outstanding commitments and to loan funds to WWFC.
Speaking to some trust directors it seems there is reasonable support for change at next weeks AGM
I’m uncertain if you are replying to me StrongestTeam however perhaps I should clarify that the five trust directors I chatted with about the pending AGM indicated unanimous support for trust ownership
Dooley, you appear to be trying to dig some dirt but it seems to me that you haven’t got any real substance on which to base your vailed accusations. Someone or something at the club seems to have upset you quite a bit.
@Blue_since_1990 Agreed.