The absolute ideal would be to win this game, then have a properly organised protest for the final with whoever we play, then to win the final in front of a total of under 500 fans at Wembley.
Would send a clear message to the FA not to completely ignore lower league fans by a) trying to slowly introduce B teams by normalising first teams playing against "U23" sides and b) removing the regionalisation of the knockout rounds resulting in Blackpool away on a Tuesday.
A 50,000 crowd could be used as "proof" of success of the competition
I'm normally quite cynical, but I just can't see the B team idea taking off anyway, so never took to the idea of a boycott.
We're just not the culture to accept B teams like on the continent. We care massively about the lower leagues, with the away followings and cups too. It's not like that in some countries.
Noone quite explained how having whole teams of of promising young players coming up against clogging lower league players would help anything anyway.
For me, the lower league cup has been absolute garbage other years, next to zero interest, no money, often losses, unless you get to perhaps the semi onwards.
So to spice it up with a new idea of the academy teams and put loads of cash in, at least tried something new. The big clubs refusing to put a team in was grossly embarrassing.
After a year of it, it's pretty clear it hasn't worked, bar the prize money angle.
Hopefully they'll revert to more of a straight knock out next year, no academy teams, but keeping the prize money! Call me Naïve Malone to think we could take the best but lose the worst element!
It's about normalising fans when it comes to their teams playing against non first teams, and making them dependant on the money that's being put in because they're there.
Yes, I agree the culture isn't the same here, but cultures can be changed by money, and the big teams couldn't care less about "lower league culture", and have the money to essentially bribe the small clubs into accepting playing their ressies.
Atm it's completely unthinkable to insert b teams into the league, but after 4/5 years of playing them in the trophy, it might seem less ridiculous to some.
Hope Bayo, Gape, O'nien, Kashket and Saunders are rested, at least to start for this, need them for for Stevenage, and they all looked knackered at the end today (bar Saunders ofc)
Football is about creating memories.
If we get to Wembley possibly a fullish Wembley against Oxford or Luton, it will create memories that will last for years - just like previous appearances against Kidderminster, Runcorn, Preston and Southend did.
Alternatively we could save personnel for a league game away to Stevenage, unlikely to be much remembered a fortnight later. It is possible of course that a win at Stevenage may make the difference between promotion or a Wembley playoff final or it might make no difference whatsoever.
If they are fit and likely to perform better than the reserve, play the first team/
@DevC said:
Football is about creating memories.
If we get to Wembley possibly a fullish Wembley against Oxford or Luton, it will create memories that will last for years - just like previous appearances against Kidderminster, Runcorn, Preston and Southend did.
Alternatively we could save personnel for a league game away to Stevenage, unlikely to be much remembered a fortnight later. It is possible of course that a win at Stevenage may make the difference between promotion or a Wembley playoff final or it might make no difference whatsoever.
If they are fit and likely to perform better than the reserve, play the first team/
Absolute bollocks. No one cared about the tin pot cup before and they care even less now it's been bastardised by the prem. The ressies have got us this far, keep playing them.
If Kashket/bayo/ O'Nien got injured that could put a huge dent in our promotion chances
Its been mainly a mixture to be fair u have to play a certain amount of 1st teamers anyway. Gape and the Watford lad are cup tied. Id imagine its going to be strong Harriman, Bean, Thompson, and De Haavaland to come in for me.
Your tone is chilling to say the least @Username. The "ressies" (horrible 'word') lost heavily to Coventry at Adams Park at the group stage andI'm very much with @DevC on this one.
@DevC said:
Football is about creating memories.
If we get to Wembley possibly a fullish Wembley against Oxford or Luton, it will create memories that will last for years - just like previous appearances against Kidderminster, Runcorn, Preston and Southend did.
Alternatively we could save personnel for a league game away to Stevenage, unlikely to be much remembered a fortnight later. It is possible of course that a win at Stevenage may make the difference between promotion or a Wembley playoff final or it might make no difference whatsoever.
If they are fit and likely to perform better than the reserve, play the first team/
Or the strongest team, which may not right now be all of the "first" as some of the key players looked dead on their feet yesterday.
The problem is of course, is that for some supporters, and I surmise all the players, a victory at Wembley will be a prized memory, whereas for others the nature of this competition would hugely devalue it. The latter may argue that we should focus on the league and let this go, having made a tidy sum already. I do wonder what Andrew Howard thinks would be the best business decision if we had to choose - money from the cup and remain in league 2 or promotion this season? Unpalatable though it was to hear, he may well have been proven right that losing the playoff final was better for our long term future. I have no idea what is the best business plan for approaching Tuesday's game but as my qualms about the competition format are less than some I shall choose to trust Mr A and Mr H, go to Coventry, and support whoever is on the pitch and whatever happens happens.
In simple terms, assuming we say playing our best (and fittest) 11 maximises our chances of beating Coventry but minimises our chances of beating Stevenage (and vice versa) which game would we have most regrets losing (assuming it worked out like that - and being football it's a safe bet it won't) this time next week?
Personally I'd be happiest (I think) if we won Tuesday but lost Saturday.
The other side of it is whether a semi-final defeat would have a negative effect on the players for the rest of the season (so near but so far) or make them that much determined to go to Wembley in the play offs. Equally will an imminent trip to Wembley in the trophy (and whether we as supporters like it or not it will be a big day in any players lives) be a lift in the run up to the end of the season or become a major distraction?
@DevC a fullish Wembley. We took under 15k to a play off final so can't see that happening.
There is also a strong argument to use the players who have been playing in this competition and got us this far. Absolutely no chance Bayo will play, he looked exhausted yesterday.
We have to play 5 starters from yesterday but I would expect 6 changes with the amount of important league games coming up.
I'd like to think @bookertease that we have enough fit (and highly motivated) players to scrape a win at the Ricoh and at least get a draw at Stevenage. Apart from Bayo, who is carrying a hamstring strain I believe, I didn't think anyone else looked totally knackered.
I'll trust GA to pick the team most likely to win based on injury and tiredness of his squad.
How full Wembley would be would depend on who it was against. I would guess we would take about 10,000. Luton perhaps 30,000, oxford 20,000, yeovil 10,000.
Football should be about creating memories, but if you must look at financials, difficult to work out financial benefit, but if assume Oxford and allow revenue from 5000 supporters to go to pay for expenses, financial benefit may be in the range of 30%25000£25= ballpark £200k plus minimum £50k prize money. (less if yeovil get there)
@Manboobs - AH has previously said he is not managing WWFC as a 'fan' but as a business. As he is doing a pretty good job so far, guess he has the balance right at the moment. He was interviewed by the Times before the Spurs game and said 'he did not particularly want WWFC to win the Southend playoff - if we had, the players were contracted to salary increases that would have cost the club £400,000 (contract small print has since been updated so WWFC could afford life in League One). Also said that there's not much money received from automatic promotion, but promotion via the playoff against the right team is worth about £250,000 to the club.
But I'd rather lose 5-0 and have no injuries than win 1-0 and pick up two injuries to key players.
Memories of winning the (hopefully) only test of the tinpot cup that had b teams in aren't that glorious, nothing compared to the FA trophy/ play off final
@LX1 said:
TheatreOfChairs you put '(B&B cup apart)' to discount it, but I would do the same with the FL Trophy.
And here's the thing. Winning this competition is worth much more to some supporters than others. My stance changed somewhat after Spurs- After such a glorious effort by the team I'd like the squad to have a grand day out at Wembley, even though the academy/B team inclusion was distasteful.
As for finance, Mr H being a businessman not fan, perhaps putting effort into the cup weakens an automatic promotion bid and so, as he may think based on past statements, we are better off trying to win the playoffs to make a league one consolidation more viable. It's a shame that promotion works that way but such is the modern game.
Personally I wouldn't place this competition in the same basket as the B&B Cup given its a national competition but I accept that it's an emotive subject and I respect the views of this who don't want anything to do with the Checkatrade Trophy.
@TheatreOfChairs said:
Not sure that having a cup run necessarily weakens a promotion bid Manboobs.
For example, we beat Portsmouth yesterday who went out all the various cups in the first round, including to us in the FA Cup.
To me, winning and success are habit forming and I'm a great believer in going out to win absolutely everything you can.
Depends on many things. I see Bayo as key for us but he's not as young as some so the more he plays the more likely he may be to injure and the more physical toll twice weekly football may take on him now. And even for young players, fixture congestion is a blend of physical and psychological factors.
And I thought we were lucky yesterday. Portsmouth had a few chances and so did we. I didn't think we outplayed them in a significant way.
Comments
The absolute ideal would be to win this game, then have a properly organised protest for the final with whoever we play, then to win the final in front of a total of under 500 fans at Wembley.
Yes, that does sound ideal.
Not pathetically pointless. Not by any means.
Believe I read straight to pens..
Would send a clear message to the FA not to completely ignore lower league fans by a) trying to slowly introduce B teams by normalising first teams playing against "U23" sides and b) removing the regionalisation of the knockout rounds resulting in Blackpool away on a Tuesday.
A 50,000 crowd could be used as "proof" of success of the competition
I'm normally quite cynical, but I just can't see the B team idea taking off anyway, so never took to the idea of a boycott.
We're just not the culture to accept B teams like on the continent. We care massively about the lower leagues, with the away followings and cups too. It's not like that in some countries.
Noone quite explained how having whole teams of of promising young players coming up against clogging lower league players would help anything anyway.
For me, the lower league cup has been absolute garbage other years, next to zero interest, no money, often losses, unless you get to perhaps the semi onwards.
So to spice it up with a new idea of the academy teams and put loads of cash in, at least tried something new. The big clubs refusing to put a team in was grossly embarrassing.
After a year of it, it's pretty clear it hasn't worked, bar the prize money angle.
Hopefully they'll revert to more of a straight knock out next year, no academy teams, but keeping the prize money! Call me Naïve Malone to think we could take the best but lose the worst element!
It's about normalising fans when it comes to their teams playing against non first teams, and making them dependant on the money that's being put in because they're there.
Yes, I agree the culture isn't the same here, but cultures can be changed by money, and the big teams couldn't care less about "lower league culture", and have the money to essentially bribe the small clubs into accepting playing their ressies.
Atm it's completely unthinkable to insert b teams into the league, but after 4/5 years of playing them in the trophy, it might seem less ridiculous to some.
Do you think we will sell 400 tickets? If so how many more?
Our 400 tickets have sold out.
Hope Bayo, Gape, O'nien, Kashket and Saunders are rested, at least to start for this, need them for for Stevenage, and they all looked knackered at the end today (bar Saunders ofc)
Username - this could be a real big payday for the club and I would advocate playing our first 11 against Coventry.
Even though all of the above looked absolutely run off their feet yesterday @Blue_since_1990 ? We have some huge league games coming up.
Football is about creating memories.
If we get to Wembley possibly a fullish Wembley against Oxford or Luton, it will create memories that will last for years - just like previous appearances against Kidderminster, Runcorn, Preston and Southend did.
Alternatively we could save personnel for a league game away to Stevenage, unlikely to be much remembered a fortnight later. It is possible of course that a win at Stevenage may make the difference between promotion or a Wembley playoff final or it might make no difference whatsoever.
If they are fit and likely to perform better than the reserve, play the first team/
Absolute bollocks. No one cared about the tin pot cup before and they care even less now it's been bastardised by the prem. The ressies have got us this far, keep playing them.
If Kashket/bayo/ O'Nien got injured that could put a huge dent in our promotion chances
Its been mainly a mixture to be fair u have to play a certain amount of 1st teamers anyway. Gape and the Watford lad are cup tied. Id imagine its going to be strong Harriman, Bean, Thompson, and De Haavaland to come in for me.
Your tone is chilling to say the least @Username. The "ressies" (horrible 'word') lost heavily to Coventry at Adams Park at the group stage andI'm very much with @DevC on this one.
Or the strongest team, which may not right now be all of the "first" as some of the key players looked dead on their feet yesterday.
The problem is of course, is that for some supporters, and I surmise all the players, a victory at Wembley will be a prized memory, whereas for others the nature of this competition would hugely devalue it. The latter may argue that we should focus on the league and let this go, having made a tidy sum already. I do wonder what Andrew Howard thinks would be the best business decision if we had to choose - money from the cup and remain in league 2 or promotion this season? Unpalatable though it was to hear, he may well have been proven right that losing the playoff final was better for our long term future. I have no idea what is the best business plan for approaching Tuesday's game but as my qualms about the competition format are less than some I shall choose to trust Mr A and Mr H, go to Coventry, and support whoever is on the pitch and whatever happens happens.
In simple terms, assuming we say playing our best (and fittest) 11 maximises our chances of beating Coventry but minimises our chances of beating Stevenage (and vice versa) which game would we have most regrets losing (assuming it worked out like that - and being football it's a safe bet it won't) this time next week?
Personally I'd be happiest (I think) if we won Tuesday but lost Saturday.
The other side of it is whether a semi-final defeat would have a negative effect on the players for the rest of the season (so near but so far) or make them that much determined to go to Wembley in the play offs. Equally will an imminent trip to Wembley in the trophy (and whether we as supporters like it or not it will be a big day in any players lives) be a lift in the run up to the end of the season or become a major distraction?
Guess we'll find out soon enough...
@DevC a fullish Wembley. We took under 15k to a play off final so can't see that happening.
There is also a strong argument to use the players who have been playing in this competition and got us this far. Absolutely no chance Bayo will play, he looked exhausted yesterday.
We have to play 5 starters from yesterday but I would expect 6 changes with the amount of important league games coming up.
I'd like to think @bookertease that we have enough fit (and highly motivated) players to scrape a win at the Ricoh and at least get a draw at Stevenage. Apart from Bayo, who is carrying a hamstring strain I believe, I didn't think anyone else looked totally knackered.
I'll trust GA to pick the team most likely to win based on injury and tiredness of his squad.
How full Wembley would be would depend on who it was against. I would guess we would take about 10,000. Luton perhaps 30,000, oxford 20,000, yeovil 10,000.
Football should be about creating memories, but if you must look at financials, difficult to work out financial benefit, but if assume Oxford and allow revenue from 5000 supporters to go to pay for expenses, financial benefit may be in the range of 30%25000£25= ballpark £200k plus minimum £50k prize money. (less if yeovil get there)
Worth trying to win for financial reasons alone.
@Manboobs - AH has previously said he is not managing WWFC as a 'fan' but as a business. As he is doing a pretty good job so far, guess he has the balance right at the moment. He was interviewed by the Times before the Spurs game and said 'he did not particularly want WWFC to win the Southend playoff - if we had, the players were contracted to salary increases that would have cost the club £400,000 (contract small print has since been updated so WWFC could afford life in League One). Also said that there's not much money received from automatic promotion, but promotion via the playoff against the right team is worth about £250,000 to the club.
Don't get me wrong, I hope we win.
But I'd rather lose 5-0 and have no injuries than win 1-0 and pick up two injuries to key players.
Memories of winning the (hopefully) only test of the tinpot cup that had b teams in aren't that glorious, nothing compared to the FA trophy/ play off final
I'm not with you at all Username.
We're a professional football club and our reason for existing is to win football matches and competitions.
We're in the semi final of one of the four competitions we play in each season. Of those it's only realistic that we could ever win two.
As a club we haven't won any silverware (B&B cup apart) since 1993.
In addition to that (but not more importantly) reaching Wembley would be worth a six figure sum to our financially challenged supporter owned club.
This is very much a first team match.
I'm sure i watched us lift a trophy at Wembley in 1994...
@TheatreOfChairs you put '(B&B cup apart)' to discount it, but I would do the same with the FL Trophy.
And here's the thing. Winning this competition is worth much more to some supporters than others. My stance changed somewhat after Spurs- After such a glorious effort by the team I'd like the squad to have a grand day out at Wembley, even though the academy/B team inclusion was distasteful.
As for finance, Mr H being a businessman not fan, perhaps putting effort into the cup weakens an automatic promotion bid and so, as he may think based on past statements, we are better off trying to win the playoffs to make a league one consolidation more viable. It's a shame that promotion works that way but such is the modern game.
Personally I wouldn't place this competition in the same basket as the B&B Cup given its a national competition but I accept that it's an emotive subject and I respect the views of this who don't want anything to do with the Checkatrade Trophy.
Exactly, this is B&B cup level for me, maybe even lower this season because of B teams inclusion
Not sure that having a cup run necessarily weakens a promotion bid Manboobs.
For example, we beat Portsmouth yesterday who went out all the various cups in the first round, including to us in the FA Cup.
To me, winning and success are habit forming and I'm a great believer in going out to win absolutely everything you can.
Depends on many things. I see Bayo as key for us but he's not as young as some so the more he plays the more likely he may be to injure and the more physical toll twice weekly football may take on him now. And even for young players, fixture congestion is a blend of physical and psychological factors.
And I thought we were lucky yesterday. Portsmouth had a few chances and so did we. I didn't think we outplayed them in a significant way.