I'd go the other way and pay double the fine with a cheery:
"Thanks, worth every penny. The extra is for the next time we do it. Or you could rethink you're stupid "rule" and give it to grass roots football".
Why is the fine more for the English FA than the others though? Because we are richer?
I think it's more as not all of the other nations wore poppies. I think Wales just displayed them. Scotland (being the away team) just wore them. We wore and displayed them.
LX1, just because you don't see it as political doesn't mean it isn't to some. And if it's political to some it is a political symbol in the eyes of Fifa.
I am not sure I have an awful lot more to add, LX, apart obviously from apologising profusely for not being available at all times to respond instantly to your demands.
There was an interesting debate on this very forum at the time about whether the poppy was a political symbol. I don't really see the point of doing it again - its not really the point anyway, the point became the English FA deliberately flouting the authority of Fifa once it had clarified that displaying the poppy would breach competition rules. If you want to understand the subject even more deeply, tap "poppy fascism" into Google and you will find many articles lamenting the politicisation of the poppy and its transition from a personal choice to remember into a communal compulsory expectation mass event (in my view trivialising its meaning).
You may too want to reflect on whether the personal abuse dished out on this thread (Micra even called me a lawyer - bastard!) in response to someone daring to have a different opinion to yours on this subject is compatible with the freedoms those who thought the second world war sought to protect. You may particularly wish to reflect whether your apparent suggestion that those who disagree with you are not fit to regard themselves as British is compatible with those values. 11 years ago we happily played a friendly football match against a recent military "enemy" on 12 November without feeling the need to display poppies, that would be impossible to do now. You may want to reflect whether you feel that is progress.
The next step for FIFA will no doubt be to prohibit supporters taking political symbols into the ground and consequently fining clubs for allowing their supporters to enter the ground wearing a poppy!
Completely agree with @arnos_grove on this. I don't think the FA should blindly follow FIFA rules but the media frenzy concerning the poppy has nothing to do with respecting or remembering those that died in the war(s). It's basically another line on the usual Little Englander theme that so many papers adhere to. As @DevC rightly points out, if this is such an important 'issue' why was there no mention of poppies when England played at the same time just 11 years ago? Remembrance Sunday used to be a sombre occasion providing time for personal thoughts. What has that to do with football?
Would be interesting to see the reaction of those who are so eager to defend their right to display the poppy at a football match towards an England player who exercised his right not to display one
I think people are missing the real issue here. Instead of asking is the poppy a political symbol', ordoes a discredited FIFA have the moral authority to fine the home countries?', maybe ask `where are the Gasroom Christmas lights?'
@eric_plant said:
Would be interesting to see the reaction of those who are so eager to defend their right to display the poppy at a football match towards an England player who exercised his right not to display one
I agree with everything @DevC has said in this thread. It's very easy to see which other thread posters are regular readers of the "everything ever is an insult to our brave boys" tabloids.
@Midlander said:
Wearing a poppy is not a political symbol. I wear a poppy to remember the dead not to get involved in any politics.
Really? So, without a Poppy pinned to your lapel, you have no memory of the dead, but as soon as you put one on it all comes flooding back to you?
I presume what you meant to say here, was that the Poppy is a symbolic representation of your wish to commemorate those who died in wars, specifically those wars engaged in by the United Kingdom and excluding other wars where some foreigners had a scrap and the only casualties were other foreigners. Which, maybe you can now see, is pretty much the definition of a political symbol.
Wearing that Poppy as a symbol of your desire to commemorate those particular dead is entirely your right. It's also the right of others not to wear one, and it's also the right of FIFA to ban it on the grounds that it's a political symbol. Because it is.
I have no wish to disrespect the dead who died fighting against Nazism or other noble causes. I don't feel I am disrespecting them if I don't wear a poppy.
If you feel that I am being disrespectful, fine. I understand some of the more salient points. But ultimately, that's really your problem if you feel like that, and you are speaking for all of the dead, which I'm not sure is your right.
England were allowed to play wearing the black armband with the poppy symbol prior to the FAs support for the anti corruption investigation and purge of 2015..strange coincidence.
For me the poppy is not a political symbol, but for some people it is (think James Mcclean) and this is the problem for FIFA. I really don't think we can complain about being fined for something that FIFA quite clearly banned us from doing. We can disagree with the reasons for sure, but to display such a blatant disregard for their rules (whatever we may think of them) was very foolish in my opinion.
@mooneyman the fine was partly for supporters wearing poppies.
@DevC You deliberately avoid debating the stupidity of the rule because you know it is a losing argument. I have never suggested 'those who disagree with you are not fit to regard themselves as British.' Not sure where you have got that from.
Not sure where I got that from, LX. I thought that was what you meant by "@DevC please stop using the word 'we' you have absolutely nothing to do with our culture". What was that supposed to mean then?
I explained that the argument about the rule about political symbols had been had before , in depth and fairly articulately on both sides as I recall. Not sure there was much point in doing it again, especially as I explained as the issue had moved on to our flagrantly defying FIFA when they confirmed that the rule applied to this case. I see others have explained it you again, very clearly in my opinion, as is their right. I note you have not countered any of their arguments. Perhaps you should just abuse them personally as well instead - always a convincing argument I find.
Ah OK, now I understand. I don't agree with you therefore I am not allowed to self-identify as a football supporter. Must have missed your election to the "football supporter culture protection" gestapo.
How proud the lads who fought to preserve our freedoms (for example free speech) would be of you.
Comments
It speaks volumes that @DevC and @NorthumberlandBlue have nothing to contribute
@DevC is a national flag a political symbol? Yes or no question.
@NorthumberlandBlue why do you think the fine isn't enough
@arnos_grove don't read the Sun mate.
@eric_plant ignore Teresa think for yourself
There is some excellent exposure on this thread
@DevC please stop using the word 'we' you have absolutely nothing to do with our culture
Perhaps a compromise would be to pay a yearly "fine" into an account of the FIFA officials choosing I'm sure they'd be up for that.
I'd go the other way and pay double the fine with a cheery:
"Thanks, worth every penny. The extra is for the next time we do it. Or you could rethink you're stupid "rule" and give it to grass roots football".
Why is the fine more for the English FA than the others though? Because we are richer?
I think it's more as not all of the other nations wore poppies. I think Wales just displayed them. Scotland (being the away team) just wore them. We wore and displayed them.
LX1, just because you don't see it as political doesn't mean it isn't to some. And if it's political to some it is a political symbol in the eyes of Fifa.
I am not sure I have an awful lot more to add, LX, apart obviously from apologising profusely for not being available at all times to respond instantly to your demands.
There was an interesting debate on this very forum at the time about whether the poppy was a political symbol. I don't really see the point of doing it again - its not really the point anyway, the point became the English FA deliberately flouting the authority of Fifa once it had clarified that displaying the poppy would breach competition rules. If you want to understand the subject even more deeply, tap "poppy fascism" into Google and you will find many articles lamenting the politicisation of the poppy and its transition from a personal choice to remember into a communal compulsory expectation mass event (in my view trivialising its meaning).
You may too want to reflect on whether the personal abuse dished out on this thread (Micra even called me a lawyer - bastard!) in response to someone daring to have a different opinion to yours on this subject is compatible with the freedoms those who thought the second world war sought to protect. You may particularly wish to reflect whether your apparent suggestion that those who disagree with you are not fit to regard themselves as British is compatible with those values. 11 years ago we happily played a friendly football match against a recent military "enemy" on 12 November without feeling the need to display poppies, that would be impossible to do now. You may want to reflect whether you feel that is progress.
The next step for FIFA will no doubt be to prohibit supporters taking political symbols into the ground and consequently fining clubs for allowing their supporters to enter the ground wearing a poppy!
Completely agree with @arnos_grove on this. I don't think the FA should blindly follow FIFA rules but the media frenzy concerning the poppy has nothing to do with respecting or remembering those that died in the war(s). It's basically another line on the usual Little Englander theme that so many papers adhere to. As @DevC rightly points out, if this is such an important 'issue' why was there no mention of poppies when England played at the same time just 11 years ago? Remembrance Sunday used to be a sombre occasion providing time for personal thoughts. What has that to do with football?
Would be interesting to see the reaction of those who are so eager to defend their right to display the poppy at a football match towards an England player who exercised his right not to display one
I think people are missing the real issue here. Instead of asking
is the poppy a political symbol', ordoes a discredited FIFA have the moral authority to fine the home countries?', maybe ask `where are the Gasroom Christmas lights?'Exactly...
I agree with everything @DevC has said in this thread. It's very easy to see which other thread posters are regular readers of the "everything ever is an insult to our brave boys" tabloids.
Also, I'm not convinced that some of you actually know what the words "politics" and "political" mean.
Really? So, without a Poppy pinned to your lapel, you have no memory of the dead, but as soon as you put one on it all comes flooding back to you?
I presume what you meant to say here, was that the Poppy is a symbolic representation of your wish to commemorate those who died in wars, specifically those wars engaged in by the United Kingdom and excluding other wars where some foreigners had a scrap and the only casualties were other foreigners. Which, maybe you can now see, is pretty much the definition of a political symbol.
Wearing that Poppy as a symbol of your desire to commemorate those particular dead is entirely your right. It's also the right of others not to wear one, and it's also the right of FIFA to ban it on the grounds that it's a political symbol. Because it is.
I agree with Dr. Congo.
I have no wish to disrespect the dead who died fighting against Nazism or other noble causes. I don't feel I am disrespecting them if I don't wear a poppy.
If you feel that I am being disrespectful, fine. I understand some of the more salient points. But ultimately, that's really your problem if you feel like that, and you are speaking for all of the dead, which I'm not sure is your right.
England were allowed to play wearing the black armband with the poppy symbol prior to the FAs support for the anti corruption investigation and purge of 2015..strange coincidence.
For me the poppy is not a political symbol, but for some people it is (think James Mcclean) and this is the problem for FIFA. I really don't think we can complain about being fined for something that FIFA quite clearly banned us from doing. We can disagree with the reasons for sure, but to display such a blatant disregard for their rules (whatever we may think of them) was very foolish in my opinion.
@mooneyman the fine was partly for supporters wearing poppies.
@DevC You deliberately avoid debating the stupidity of the rule because you know it is a losing argument. I have never suggested 'those who disagree with you are not fit to regard themselves as British.' Not sure where you have got that from.
@LX1 Probably he got that from your comment at 12.40am: "@DevC please stop using the word 'we' you have absolutely nothing to do with our culture"
What did you mean by that, exactly? How would you define "our culture" and who do you seek to include as members of that group?
Not sure where I got that from, LX. I thought that was what you meant by "@DevC please stop using the word 'we' you have absolutely nothing to do with our culture". What was that supposed to mean then?
I explained that the argument about the rule about political symbols had been had before , in depth and fairly articulately on both sides as I recall. Not sure there was much point in doing it again, especially as I explained as the issue had moved on to our flagrantly defying FIFA when they confirmed that the rule applied to this case. I see others have explained it you again, very clearly in my opinion, as is their right. I note you have not countered any of their arguments. Perhaps you should just abuse them personally as well instead - always a convincing argument I find.
I was referring to football supporter culture. Having read @DevC's posts over the years I see no association.
Ah OK, now I understand. I don't agree with you therefore I am not allowed to self-identify as a football supporter. Must have missed your election to the "football supporter culture protection" gestapo.
How proud the lads who fought to preserve our freedoms (for example free speech) would be of you.
Indeed you are free to do what you want. And I am free to state my opinion of it.
Err yup.
Moving on.