So we asked Fifa to display the symbol at this match. They replied that to do so would breach the rules. We screamed and screamed until we were sick, FIFA reconfirmed it would be against the rules and then did it anyway.
We got off incredibly lightly (lucky not to be kicked out IMHO) now we are to appeal. Quite why we are spending our political capital and influence with FIFA on this ridiculous non-issue is beyond me.
Thanks for the abuse. I stand by the comment. We deliberately flouted the rules that they had expressly made clear to us. By so doing we deliberately challenged their authority in their competition. Their response seems very weak indeed to me.
Rules in a football competition are the rules, yes. FIFA made the rules clear. We chose to break them. When we chose to break them, this ceased to be an issue about whether the poppy is a political symbol and became an issue about one member country deliberately challenging the authority of FIFA. FIFA have been in my view incredibly (and probably unwisely) tolerant of this in the size of the punishment laid down.
Deary me @DevC you are a professional troll? Do you actually believe the things you are saying or just looking for attention?
For me this issue means so much it is worth resigning from FIFA over. Sod the World Cup, I don't want to be part of anything that is going to fine my country for paying tribute to the dead. Sometimes things are far more important than football, this is one.
They didn't. They fined England for making a political statement at a football match in contradiction of their rules. The debate has been had previously about whether or not the poppy is a political statement (in my view it is) , the relevant fact is that FIFA had clarified the rules in advance, we breached them.
Just to be clear, I have no objection to the poppy or all it stands for. That's not the point.
i Actually agree (for once!) with @DevC on this. They were warned not to do it, carried on, and so can't complain really.
Football and war are two completely different things. Keep them separate.
We have all manner of better platforms for such tributes. We have remembrance day, the Cenotaph and countless other platforms, and deservedly so.
The real problem is where do you draw the line? Just our tribute allowed? Or do you allow say, Iraq to make a similar tribute regarding say the Gulf War, if they're playing the USA in the World cup.
That's when things can start getting very nasty, and outside of what football should stand for.
DevC adds nothing to any debate except nonsense unless it's a young lady on a train, a professional wum who needs medical help. Why would anyone take a post of his Seriously?
Why? It's not a political symbol more of remembering those who lost their lives that fought against being dictated to as FIFA are doing to us people who wish to remember those brave men/women who gave us the freedom we have today.
Why did England get fined the most? Not really hot anything extra to add to the debate but I am interested in the facts. Weren't Scotland's poppy armbands bigger than England's?
Regarding breaking Rules. I Thought FIFA staff have been doing just that for years. Appealing will at least get further views from other members of FIFA.
It was allowed for the Spanish friendly.
Taking their stance on Religious matters means that Roman Catholics should not enter Football stadiums wearing their crosses. " only Football matters in the stadium" is how they referred to the UK's rule breaking. At the end of the day it 's not an issue which is the most urgent for the FA to sort out.
For me it has been become a political symbol in recent years, especially since the rise of Help for Heroes, which was essentially got off the ground by The Sun. And as many people have pointed out, there is no tradition other than in very recent years, of national or club sides insisting of displaying poppies before and during matches.
Once you three line whip everyone into displaying a poppy it loses any meaning or significance.
If the owners of The Sun paid a proper rate of tax, we might be able to look after injured servicemen and women properly without needing to be barked at by the tax-shy media to support such charities.
Wearing a poppy is not a political symbol. I wear a poppy to remember the dead not to get involved in any politics. FIFA telling the Fa not to wear poppies was a political statement.
Remembrance Day has become a rather mawkish display of one upmanship in recent years.
And some pretty intelligent people are either not getting, or choosing to ignore some pretty valid reasons why FIFA would want all such commemorations of conflict kept away from international football matches.
And I'm afraid the "it's not political" argument doesn't really hold much water when Theresa May et al stick their noses in. Nothing more than cheap populism that.
@Midlander said:
Wearing a poppy is not a political symbol. I wear a poppy to remember the dead not to get involved in any politics. FIFA telling the Fa not to wear poppies was a political statement.
British newspapers politicians have turned it into a political symbol. Perhaps blame them rather than FIFA.
@DevC said:
So we asked Fifa to display the symbol at this match. They replied that to do so would breach the rules. We screamed and screamed until we were sick, FIFA reconfirmed it would be against the rules and then did it anyway.
We got off incredibly lightly (lucky not to be kicked out IMHO) now we are to appeal. Quite why we are spending our political capital and influence with FIFA on this ridiculous non-issue is beyond me.
"We" didn't ask FIFA to display the symbol. FIFA didn't do it. To think that I was once so impressed with your written English that I thought you might be involved in some branch of the legal profession @DevC !
Comments
Fine should have been a lot more
Why so @NorthumberlandBlue ?
So we asked Fifa to display the symbol at this match. They replied that to do so would breach the rules. We screamed and screamed until we were sick, FIFA reconfirmed it would be against the rules and then did it anyway.
We got off incredibly lightly (lucky not to be kicked out IMHO) now we are to appeal. Quite why we are spending our political capital and influence with FIFA on this ridiculous non-issue is beyond me.
'Lucky not to be kicked out'
What a pathetic troll you are. Do you not recognise how transparent you are?
Thanks for the abuse. I stand by the comment. We deliberately flouted the rules that they had expressly made clear to us. By so doing we deliberately challenged their authority in their competition. Their response seems very weak indeed to me.
well said @devc . The rules were known. The rules are quite reasonable.
Rules are rules aren't they @DevC?
Do you think a national flag is a political symbol?
I no longer support England, and would be happy to have seen them kicked out
The fact we've been fined more for this than countries that have been guilty multiple times of racism in grounds is quite frankly shocking.
Can't see the point in appealing, accept the fine and move on.
Rules in a football competition are the rules, yes. FIFA made the rules clear. We chose to break them. When we chose to break them, this ceased to be an issue about whether the poppy is a political symbol and became an issue about one member country deliberately challenging the authority of FIFA. FIFA have been in my view incredibly (and probably unwisely) tolerant of this in the size of the punishment laid down.
Deary me @DevC you are a professional troll? Do you actually believe the things you are saying or just looking for attention?
For me this issue means so much it is worth resigning from FIFA over. Sod the World Cup, I don't want to be part of anything that is going to fine my country for paying tribute to the dead. Sometimes things are far more important than football, this is one.
Furthermore the government should not be allowing FIFA to get away with this either. Then they can really moan about a political gesture...
They didn't. They fined England for making a political statement at a football match in contradiction of their rules. The debate has been had previously about whether or not the poppy is a political statement (in my view it is) , the relevant fact is that FIFA had clarified the rules in advance, we breached them.
Just to be clear, I have no objection to the poppy or all it stands for. That's not the point.
i Actually agree (for once!) with @DevC on this. They were warned not to do it, carried on, and so can't complain really.
Football and war are two completely different things. Keep them separate.
We have all manner of better platforms for such tributes. We have remembrance day, the Cenotaph and countless other platforms, and deservedly so.
The real problem is where do you draw the line? Just our tribute allowed? Or do you allow say, Iraq to make a similar tribute regarding say the Gulf War, if they're playing the USA in the World cup.
That's when things can start getting very nasty, and outside of what football should stand for.
DevC adds nothing to any debate except nonsense unless it's a young lady on a train, a professional wum who needs medical help. Why would anyone take a post of his Seriously?
It would be interesting to know where the fine will go now Sepp Blatter is no longer president!
We knew the rules, we broke the rules.
You may think it was the correct thing to do. I respect that opinion.
It doesn't mean we don't have to pay the fine.
Completely agree with what The English and Scottish FA did.
I don't think we should pay the fine personally. Are FIFA really going to kick us out of the World Cup? I think not.
I don't disagree with wearing the poppy, but I can't understand how we can think we don't have to obey the rules like everyone else?
Surely we can be happy paying a fine and wearing the poppy?
Why? It's not a political symbol more of remembering those who lost their lives that fought against being dictated to as FIFA are doing to us people who wish to remember those brave men/women who gave us the freedom we have today.
It's not a political symbol to you (or most in this country), but it is to some, and many in other countries... Therefore it "is" in Fifas eyes.
They don't want to have to distinguish between these sorts of things throughout all their member nations, so it's easier just to ban them all.
Why did England get fined the most? Not really hot anything extra to add to the debate but I am interested in the facts. Weren't Scotland's poppy armbands bigger than England's?
Regarding breaking Rules. I Thought FIFA staff have been doing just that for years. Appealing will at least get further views from other members of FIFA.
It was allowed for the Spanish friendly.
Taking their stance on Religious matters means that Roman Catholics should not enter Football stadiums wearing their crosses. " only Football matters in the stadium" is how they referred to the UK's rule breaking. At the end of the day it 's not an issue which is the most urgent for the FA to sort out.
Good posts from @DevC and @Malone on the subject.
For me it has been become a political symbol in recent years, especially since the rise of Help for Heroes, which was essentially got off the ground by The Sun. And as many people have pointed out, there is no tradition other than in very recent years, of national or club sides insisting of displaying poppies before and during matches.
Once you three line whip everyone into displaying a poppy it loses any meaning or significance.
If the owners of The Sun paid a proper rate of tax, we might be able to look after injured servicemen and women properly without needing to be barked at by the tax-shy media to support such charities.
Wearing a poppy is not a political symbol. I wear a poppy to remember the dead not to get involved in any politics. FIFA telling the Fa not to wear poppies was a political statement.
Remembrance Day has become a rather mawkish display of one upmanship in recent years.
And some pretty intelligent people are either not getting, or choosing to ignore some pretty valid reasons why FIFA would want all such commemorations of conflict kept away from international football matches.
And I'm afraid the "it's not political" argument doesn't really hold much water when Theresa May et al stick their noses in. Nothing more than cheap populism that.
Just don't pay it. FIFA is an organisation so corrupt it deserves to be treated with utter contempt.
British newspapers politicians have turned it into a political symbol. Perhaps blame them rather than FIFA.
"We" didn't ask FIFA to display the symbol. FIFA didn't do it. To think that I was once so impressed with your written English that I thought you might be involved in some branch of the legal profession @DevC !