If you can't defend a simple long throw into the box you can't expect to proceed. One goal should have been enough against Iceland, who are well organised but that's about it.
So a minority of the "Remain", who lost the vote last Thursday, believe in yourselves like the Welsh. I'm happy as larry as I'm Welshmen who lives in England. Goes to show the talent that we have in the UK. As an Ex junior coach it's great to see Managers, let players play and express themselves.
When Wales attacked it was with purpose, no stopping and waiting for backup, Wales knew there was no backup arriving, so went about their business and c'mon 3 goals, very good goals against The tournament favourites Belguim, who the pundits forget Wales beat once and drew in the qualifiers.
The answer I was seeking all along was to wear a red shirt. Not my 1966 England shirt but a Welsh one.
I leapt around the lounge last night kicking every ball and holding back tears at the final whistle. Robbie Savage was a joy to listen to and I could not stand him for YEARS.
Passion aside this team had flair, technique, a desire to attack and a commitment to defend with everything they had.
So my initial question should have been 'Why should I care about England?' And in retrospect the answer was that I shouldn't. Should I care for the Euros's? Of course just find a team that loves you back.
Thank you Wales. Thank you
@Chris said:
And people criticise DevC for at one point supporting Watford.
I'm delighted for Wales but they aren't my team.
I'd far rather cheer for a Wales team that gives a shit than an England team that doesn't. Can't remember the last time I've enjoyed a football match as much as I did last night, my cheer when the third Wales goal went in woke my kids, and probably the neighbours kids too. I see absolutely no point in supporting England at all.
But the idea that England don't give a shit is bollocks. Wales have been winning, England didn't. I don't see how this is any different to the thousands of kids that now say they support Leicester.
I'm glad Leicester won the League. I supported Wales last night, and I will continue to do so until they beat Iceland in the final. But not in the same way that I support England or Wycombe.
You can't just change teams on a whim, can you? That's not football.
@chris Perception is everything. Everything the England team did on the night and some of them since has said that they don't care about the fans. Not giving a shit as it impacts their personal wealth is a different thing.
I will continue to support Wales passionately doesn't mean I don't support Wycombe or England. I just love to see a team that plays with such heart and desire and actually some pretty damn good attacking flair.
You really think Rooney didn't care about the result? He played badly because he's not a world class central midfielder, not because he didn't give a shit. They were all clearly gutted at the end. And why would it be about money? They've all already got more money than it's reasonably possible to spend in a lifetime.
I always thought one of the things about football is that you support your team through good times and bad. Not that you suddenly decide you'd rather support Wales.
And let's not forget that England beat Wales when they played in this tournament. I'm not sure how that fits into the grand narrative of little Wales playing as a team and outperforming the sides of uncoordinated individuals which seems to have been adopted.
@chris I haven't stopped supporting England. They got knocked out the tournament. Google it. It was a shocker.
In terms of not caring. I don't believe they do. Not for the right reason. No.
Anyway. I'm going to do the washing up in my non-crystal studded sink.
I'm with Chris. I'm delighted to see Wales win, especially for all my Welsh friends. But the idea of 'supporting Wales passionately' just because they got further than us in a tournament feels very plasticy. If a League Two team got to the semi finals of a cup competition I'd root for them. But I wouldn't ever say I support them or am passionate about their victory.
Seems a bit of over analysis to me. Any team, in any sport, at any level needs a manager who knows his best team, his tactics/formation, and the players need to know exactly what their role is
England had none of the above. That is why we are a shambles, and that's why we went out. Nothing to do with the academies they came through, the money they earn or their lack of "passion"
The ultimate blame for our dismal showing is Roy Hodgson's, and he had rightly vacated his position. And if you doubt the impact a manager who instills all of those criteria above, look at the England rugby team since replacing Stuart Lancaster with Eddie Jones. The difference could not be more striking.
When a manager is scratching around for his best team/formation etc it just creates a chaotic atmosphere, and that chaos was played out to its appalling conclusion last Monday night in Nice.
Blaming Hodgson is ok for this contest and that started with his squad selection. However I am struggling to recall an England team in the last 20 years (euro 96 maybe) that had desire that infected the nation.
We exist in a league system where Dwight Gale is worth (ahem) £10million for heavens sake. The world of top level football is mad. Is it any wonder that people turn on players that under perform?
Most of the Welsh team are nearly as grossly overpaid as the English team. I'd be shocked if any of the Welsh players who have appeared aren't millionaires. I think there's some confusion between a side winning a game, and having the desire to win a game. I saw no indication that England weren't trying their utmost to win. They underperformed against Iceland and were knocked out. It happens. It's not a national tragedy, unlike some things in the last couple of weeks.
Wales got lucky and got past Belgium. Yes they were positive in intent, and played well on the day. But they should have been down to ten men and should separately have conceded a penalty. If England had had their luck against Iceland we'd be in the quarter finals. None of that means England played well against Iceland - they didn't, the defending was awful, and the midfield poor. Joe Hart had a particularly bad game but we still should have beaten them.
Football is a game that hinges on moments of luck, with the low number of goals scored each game compared to almost every other sport, and that's especially true in a knockout competition. England dominated every game they played this tournament, but only won one game. They've played a lot worse in previous tournaments. It's right that Hodgson should go as we didn't get the results and were poor in the game that mattered most.
I'd have selected Andy Carroll to give a more direct option, but then I've always been a fan of that approach than the current vogue in high level football. I can see why Hodgson didn't pick him, as that could be seen in the media as the old fashioned England way that has been tried and failed many times before. Hodgson does deserve credit for developing some of the younger players at an international level.
I think there's too much analysis. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. In this case, Wales have won their knock out games and England haven't. It would be nice if Wales won the whole thing.
I disagree with you on almost every point. Welsh footballers have been a credit to themselves and their profession. All bar Bale and Ramsey can progress their careers by doing well this month. Very few of the England team can see that performing well in a major tournament might not make them richer in the pocket but would makes them legends in the public eye. The fact we still celebrate Euro 96 shows what could happen and we only did as well as Wales and played at home.
If every team tried their best, half of them (well, not in this competition) would be knocked out at the group stage. Half of them in each round after that. Teams lose without not trying their best. It's a lazy explanation, and not a true one.
You can't just change teams on a whim, can you? That's not football.
For the record, I haven't just changed teams on a whim. I've never been able to get excited about watching England for a number of reasons: xenophobic violent fans, pampered but shit players, endless shit managers, an FA that is determined to fuck everything up. The list goes on. I'm not an England fan, so cheering for someone else does not equate to changing my team.
I never said I was a Wales fan either, simply that I'd rather cheer for them than England. Which I would. I'd rather cheer for any of the other home nations than England, because none of the other home nations have fans, players or managers that consistently embarrass their nation.
I would consider myself an England supporter but with 20 minutes to go I really wanted Iceland to go on and win as we were so embarrassing (I have never felt that about Wycombe in spite of plenty of opportunities).
I don't support Wales but the way they approached and played yesterday made me really pleased that they won (and that second goal was a real moment of beauty).
To follow on from Dr Congo's point. Just before the England game I watched Channel 4 news with their undercover filming of England fans with my kids. As they said after - karma. We get the football team (some of us) deserve
One thing some people forget in all this is that Iceland aren't a bad side. Narrowly missed out on qualification for the World Cup and beat some top sides qualifying for this. Not for one minute excusing poor management and player performance from England, just giving credit to an unbeaten Iceland side.
@drcongo whilst I recognise most of your reasons for 'not being able to get excited' about watching England 'xenephobic violent fans' are suffered by pretty much all nations (including England) in a small minority (Wales as much if not more than anyone).
Wales took four points off Belguim in the qualifiers and only let in four goals in the run up, so that some serious luck in a group where they were 3rd tier, as oppose to England (1st tier) who waltz their quailifies with ease, but unfortunately in the knock out end of competition, possession domination, don't give you pass through to the next round.
If you're a relatively strong team you should be in the opposition penalty area more, so you'll win more penalties; and be in your own penalty area less, so you concede less. That could look like luck but it isn't.
By definition you can't make your own luck, it's down to chance. Otherwise it wouldn't be luck.
Comments
If you can't defend a simple long throw into the box you can't expect to proceed. One goal should have been enough against Iceland, who are well organised but that's about it.
TheAndyGrahamFanClub - you were right all along
So a minority of the "Remain", who lost the vote last Thursday, believe in yourselves like the Welsh. I'm happy as larry as I'm Welshmen who lives in England. Goes to show the talent that we have in the UK. As an Ex junior coach it's great to see Managers, let players play and express themselves.
When Wales attacked it was with purpose, no stopping and waiting for backup, Wales knew there was no backup arriving, so went about their business and c'mon 3 goals, very good goals against The tournament favourites Belguim, who the pundits forget Wales beat once and drew in the qualifiers.
Cymru yr Beth.
The answer I was seeking all along was to wear a red shirt. Not my 1966 England shirt but a Welsh one.
I leapt around the lounge last night kicking every ball and holding back tears at the final whistle. Robbie Savage was a joy to listen to and I could not stand him for YEARS.
Passion aside this team had flair, technique, a desire to attack and a commitment to defend with everything they had.
So my initial question should have been 'Why should I care about England?' And in retrospect the answer was that I shouldn't. Should I care for the Euros's? Of course just find a team that loves you back.
Thank you Wales. Thank you
And people criticise DevC for at one point supporting Watford.
I'm delighted for Wales but they aren't my team.
Can Wales achieve the same result as Greece did in Portugal in 2004?.
Teamwork rather than "Stars".
@wformation I suspect Italy will fill that role this year?
I'd far rather cheer for a Wales team that gives a shit than an England team that doesn't. Can't remember the last time I've enjoyed a football match as much as I did last night, my cheer when the third Wales goal went in woke my kids, and probably the neighbours kids too. I see absolutely no point in supporting England at all.
But the idea that England don't give a shit is bollocks. Wales have been winning, England didn't. I don't see how this is any different to the thousands of kids that now say they support Leicester.
I'm glad Leicester won the League. I supported Wales last night, and I will continue to do so until they beat Iceland in the final. But not in the same way that I support England or Wycombe.
You can't just change teams on a whim, can you? That's not football.
@chris Perception is everything. Everything the England team did on the night and some of them since has said that they don't care about the fans. Not giving a shit as it impacts their personal wealth is a different thing.
I will continue to support Wales passionately doesn't mean I don't support Wycombe or England. I just love to see a team that plays with such heart and desire and actually some pretty damn good attacking flair.
Dont forget luck too.
You really think Rooney didn't care about the result? He played badly because he's not a world class central midfielder, not because he didn't give a shit. They were all clearly gutted at the end. And why would it be about money? They've all already got more money than it's reasonably possible to spend in a lifetime.
I always thought one of the things about football is that you support your team through good times and bad. Not that you suddenly decide you'd rather support Wales.
And let's not forget that England beat Wales when they played in this tournament. I'm not sure how that fits into the grand narrative of little Wales playing as a team and outperforming the sides of uncoordinated individuals which seems to have been adopted.
@Chris Do you really not get it?
England seriously screwed it up YET AGAIN.
Wales have performed way above everyone's expectation.
Some of England's 250K a week players couldn't pass the ball ten yards to a team-mate.
Their keeper couldn't catch a cold.
The Welsh players on the other hand threw themselves in front of everything and looked genuinely exhausted at the end of every game.
Robson-Kanu was recently released by Reading, and many of their other players are from outside the Premier League.
Is it any wonder people are making comparisons that reflect poorly on England's overpaid 'stars' (Yet again)
@chris I haven't stopped supporting England. They got knocked out the tournament. Google it. It was a shocker.
In terms of not caring. I don't believe they do. Not for the right reason. No.
Anyway. I'm going to do the washing up in my non-crystal studded sink.
I'm with Chris. I'm delighted to see Wales win, especially for all my Welsh friends. But the idea of 'supporting Wales passionately' just because they got further than us in a tournament feels very plasticy. If a League Two team got to the semi finals of a cup competition I'd root for them. But I wouldn't ever say I support them or am passionate about their victory.
Seems a bit of over analysis to me. Any team, in any sport, at any level needs a manager who knows his best team, his tactics/formation, and the players need to know exactly what their role is
England had none of the above. That is why we are a shambles, and that's why we went out. Nothing to do with the academies they came through, the money they earn or their lack of "passion"
The ultimate blame for our dismal showing is Roy Hodgson's, and he had rightly vacated his position. And if you doubt the impact a manager who instills all of those criteria above, look at the England rugby team since replacing Stuart Lancaster with Eddie Jones. The difference could not be more striking.
When a manager is scratching around for his best team/formation etc it just creates a chaotic atmosphere, and that chaos was played out to its appalling conclusion last Monday night in Nice.
@eric_plant I don't think you can lay all the blame at Hodgson's door.
He wasn't responsible for some woeful individual performances such as Joe Hart's gaffes for at least two of the four goals England conceded.
To the neutral observer (I'm a Scot), the England players just don't show the same urgency and will to win as most of the nations on display.
So were Joe Hart's errors because of a lack of will to win then?
Blaming Hodgson is ok for this contest and that started with his squad selection. However I am struggling to recall an England team in the last 20 years (euro 96 maybe) that had desire that infected the nation.
We exist in a league system where Dwight Gale is worth (ahem) £10million for heavens sake. The world of top level football is mad. Is it any wonder that people turn on players that under perform?
@eric_plant No but they certainly weren't Roy Hodgson's fault.
England's disappointing performance was a collective failing that repeats itself every two years.
Most of the Welsh team are nearly as grossly overpaid as the English team. I'd be shocked if any of the Welsh players who have appeared aren't millionaires. I think there's some confusion between a side winning a game, and having the desire to win a game. I saw no indication that England weren't trying their utmost to win. They underperformed against Iceland and were knocked out. It happens. It's not a national tragedy, unlike some things in the last couple of weeks.
Wales got lucky and got past Belgium. Yes they were positive in intent, and played well on the day. But they should have been down to ten men and should separately have conceded a penalty. If England had had their luck against Iceland we'd be in the quarter finals. None of that means England played well against Iceland - they didn't, the defending was awful, and the midfield poor. Joe Hart had a particularly bad game but we still should have beaten them.
Football is a game that hinges on moments of luck, with the low number of goals scored each game compared to almost every other sport, and that's especially true in a knockout competition. England dominated every game they played this tournament, but only won one game. They've played a lot worse in previous tournaments. It's right that Hodgson should go as we didn't get the results and were poor in the game that mattered most.
I'd have selected Andy Carroll to give a more direct option, but then I've always been a fan of that approach than the current vogue in high level football. I can see why Hodgson didn't pick him, as that could be seen in the media as the old fashioned England way that has been tried and failed many times before. Hodgson does deserve credit for developing some of the younger players at an international level.
I think there's too much analysis. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. In this case, Wales have won their knock out games and England haven't. It would be nice if Wales won the whole thing.
I disagree with you on almost every point. Welsh footballers have been a credit to themselves and their profession. All bar Bale and Ramsey can progress their careers by doing well this month. Very few of the England team can see that performing well in a major tournament might not make them richer in the pocket but would makes them legends in the public eye. The fact we still celebrate Euro 96 shows what could happen and we only did as well as Wales and played at home.
If every team tried their best, half of them (well, not in this competition) would be knocked out at the group stage. Half of them in each round after that. Teams lose without not trying their best. It's a lazy explanation, and not a true one.
For the record, I haven't just changed teams on a whim. I've never been able to get excited about watching England for a number of reasons: xenophobic violent fans, pampered but shit players, endless shit managers, an FA that is determined to fuck everything up. The list goes on. I'm not an England fan, so cheering for someone else does not equate to changing my team.
I never said I was a Wales fan either, simply that I'd rather cheer for them than England. Which I would. I'd rather cheer for any of the other home nations than England, because none of the other home nations have fans, players or managers that consistently embarrass their nation.
I would consider myself an England supporter but with 20 minutes to go I really wanted Iceland to go on and win as we were so embarrassing (I have never felt that about Wycombe in spite of plenty of opportunities).
I don't support Wales but the way they approached and played yesterday made me really pleased that they won (and that second goal was a real moment of beauty).
To follow on from Dr Congo's point. Just before the England game I watched Channel 4 news with their undercover filming of England fans with my kids. As they said after - karma. We get the football team (some of us) deserve
One thing some people forget in all this is that Iceland aren't a bad side. Narrowly missed out on qualification for the World Cup and beat some top sides qualifying for this. Not for one minute excusing poor management and player performance from England, just giving credit to an unbeaten Iceland side.
@drcongo whilst I recognise most of your reasons for 'not being able to get excited' about watching England 'xenephobic violent fans' are suffered by pretty much all nations (including England) in a small minority (Wales as much if not more than anyone).
@Chris said:
Wales took four points off Belguim in the qualifiers and only let in four goals in the run up, so that some serious luck in a group where they were 3rd tier, as oppose to England (1st tier) who waltz their quailifies with ease, but unfortunately in the knock out end of competition, possession domination, don't give you pass through to the next round.
I think we are both in agreement that by the time you get to the tournament the qualifiers don't matter.
Wales were lucky on the day against Belgium. That's football sometimes, they still needed to take advantage of that luck and they did.
Successful teams make their own luck.
If you're a relatively strong team you should be in the opposition penalty area more, so you'll win more penalties; and be in your own penalty area less, so you concede less. That could look like luck but it isn't.
By definition you can't make your own luck, it's down to chance. Otherwise it wouldn't be luck.