One of specials have their place. Little evidence they generate much if any repeat business but worth a try from time to time.
Permantly reduced prices would almost certainly be financial suicide. If you reduce prices by a third, you need to attract a 50per cent increase in crowd just to break even. There is no evidence to suggest this is remotely achievable. "Profit on teas and coffees" is a red herring.
Objectively it is very likely that if the club wants to maximise revenue, it should actually increase prices by a couple of quid a ticket. Suspect that won't be popular though'
@TheNixonTapes you really think it's that simple? Drop the prices and the crowds will come? The club have tried many times over the years with price promotions, and it has been mentioned many times that they simply don't work. It's such a simplistic view to say that by dropping prices crowds will increase and therefore other takings will make up the difference.
If it's that straightforward then why isn't every club who has a partially empty stadium doing it?
Hartlepool tried it and it didn't work, at least beyond the first season. I don't think anything is guaranteed to work, although that doesn't mean it isn't worth exploring possible new ideas and trying some low risk ones.
They still run these schemes, and if you buy the next season's ticket early enough you can watch a full season for about a fiver a game. While we're obviously not going to get 18000 season ticket holders, it wouldn't too hard to implement a system that rewards season ticket purchases without causing a drop in revenue.
Of course its a guess, Eric. That's why it says "around". It could be £250 or £300, likely to be somewhere in that range.
What I am looking for is to assess whether Congos assertion that it wouldn't be too hard to devise a system that rewards season ticket holders without causing a drop in revenue. I am interested in what he has in mind.
Is he for example suggesting we cut all prices by half - OK but then you would have to double season ticket holders to stay the same. I await with interest his response .
An alternative suggestion. The location of the stadium means not many irregular attemdees will come along to the game spontaneously because they happen to be around and notice there is one on, as would more likely happen if the stadium was near the town centre. Instead of reducing ticket prices, why not keep them as they are and try running a fleet of free or subsidised mini buses from town to the ground. They could drive around bearing flags and sounding their horns or playing music to draw attention, in a similar manner to ice cream vans, and pick people up.
I've no idea how much this would cost, but I do think a few extras may be attracted each week and it would raise awareness in town that a match is on and perhaps encourage others to come along using their own means of transport too.
@Uncle_T said:
Instead of reducing ticket prices, why not keep them as they are and try running a fleet of free or subsidised mini buses from town to the ground. They could drive around bearing flags and sounding their horns or playing music to draw attention, in a similar manner to ice cream vans, and pick people up.
I like this idea. A bit like the Spearmint Rhino minibus that used to hang about outside the Litten Tree on Frogmoor every Thursday night.
You never did get back to me with details of your cunning plan to presumably reduce season ticket prices without affecting revenue - Dr C. You know the one that wasn't particularly hard to devise. Interested to see what you had in mind.
@mooneyman I'd quite like to see a quartered neopolitan ice cream in the Oxford and Cambridge blue. Does anyone have a name for such a wonderful creation?
There are loads of things you could try Dev, use your imagination
For example you could introduce the scheme that other clubs have whereby if x season tickets are sold then they cost y, the prices reducing accordingly as each target is met
You could incentivise spending in areas where profit margin in higher by issuing rewards which could be offset against the cost of a season ticket, eg spend £50 in the club shop get £5 off a season ticket
You could have special offers for lapsed season ticket holders. Come back and we'll give you a tenner off, that sort of thing
You could have special offers for first time season ticket holders
You could offer discount rates for 4 or more season tickets bought together
You could throw in one or two cup games, or at least offer cheaper tickets to cup games if you've got a season ticket
I'm not saying these are particularly groundbreaking, or even if they'd work, but to just say that there's nothing that could be done is defeatist
There's no point addressing the figures you posted specifically because they were made up. You could counter it by saying that if you sold £100 season tickets behind the goal you'd sell an extra 1000. It's pointless
Thanks Eric, much more interesting post than just cheap moaning and sniping.
Dr Congo argued that it would be easy to establish a scheme yo "reward" season ticket holders without affecting revenue. I am afraid that is simply not true. 48 lower league teams have exactly the same issue, 48 lower league teams will have racked their brains on how they can benefit from empty seats that cost nothing. Nobody has really cracked it.
The Bradford example was interesting. I believe one other club tried it without success. You may be aware of more. It is telling that no one else has seen merit in it. It is unlikely to work and maybe significantly counterproductive in clubs other than large economically deprived cities.
To fill those seats you would have to do something dramatic, your suggestion of a tenner off is extremely unlikely to change behaviours or stimulate demand in any meaningful way. It would have to be far larger - £50 or so minimum I would have thought. - just as an example £200 instead of £250 - maybe more.
And then you get the time honoured issue that while a few people may be stimulated by lower prices to buy, that additional revenue is likely to be dwarfed by loss of revenue from those prepared to pay £250 but delighted instead to be asked to pay £200.
Now you can come up with schemes to try to exclude those prepared to pay higher rates, as you have with new season ticket holder discounts and lapsed season ticket discounts. But all schemes where significant discounts are offered will be abused - a current season ticket holder may very well ask hos neighbour to buy his ticket for him and thus attract the discount for example.
You can assume if you wish that all those who run football clubs are lazy and stupid and haven't bothered to examine alternatives and seek to copy any that others have tried that have worked. More realistically IMHO you can conclude that there is a limited amount that can be done and most kneejerk schemes will lose rather than generate cash.
Oh and you can guarantee that for every scheme that is dreamed up, they will try to assess revenue from that scheme against the default revenue from the status quo. Its how business works.
@devc I've posted the detail of my idea on here before, but the tl;dr version is that you price the tickets on a sliding scale, and run it like a kickstarter in that the money doesn't come out until a set date. You then reduce the cost for everyone the more tickets are sold. If everyone knows the goals, it's a very simple way to massively engage the fan base in doing the club's marketing for them.
I do also appreciate that you took so much time to debunk something that you hadn't yet heard. The only way that entire post could have been more straw-man would have been for you to write it on straw in the shape of a man and then set fire to it on a remote Scottish island.
I responded to Eric Plant's suggestions, the clue was "Thanks Eric .....". You hadn't posted your scheme by then. I had no idea what it was.
Your scheme seems to be the Bradford scheme as far as I can tell. Have I misunderstood it? Every other bottom two divisions club will have looked at that scheme. I believe one other club tried it unsuccessfully. They have presumably all concluded it doesn't work for them. My instinct is to agree with them.
If I have misunderstood your idea, I would be interested in the details.
Funny, I thought the clue was the bit where you said
Dr Congo argued that it would be easy to establish a scheme yo "reward" season ticket holders without affecting revenue. I am afraid that is simply not true.
And then went on to construct a straw man to "prove" how not true it is.
no. I pointed out that your comment that it would be easy to establish a scheme to reward season ticket holders without affecting revenue was wrong - it self evidently is. if it was easy the 48 lower league clubs would be doing it already.
then I responded to Erics interesting post. I cant respond to yours as I don't know what it is, but on the face of it appears to be a rehash of the Bradford scheme. Is that right?
Crikey. No dev, no it isn't. Bradford simply reward early purchasers, as do Wycombe and every other club. If you have a look at the official WWFC website you'll see you can buy a season ticket at a discount at the moment. The only difference being that Bradford offer much greater discounts. This scheme would reward all season ticket purchasers before a set deadline, with the reward becoming larger the more season tickets get sold.
Using your assumed average price of £250, and the club's prediction of 2100 season ticket sales, the minimum take we'd want from season ticket sales would be £525k. If we could sell 4000 season tickets (very long shot, obviously) this could bring the average price of a season ticket down to £131.25 for the same revenue. 3000 tickets would require an average price of £175.
So, you set a deadline as the start of the summer close season for the promotion to end, and everybody who pledges to buy a season ticket before that deadline, gets it at the same price (or same level of discount). You then set targets for sales that will trigger the discount levels. So everyone pledges initially at a small discount, and the more pledges received the greater the discount received.
Consequently, at every level of discount, a season ticket suddenly becomes a more viable option for people who don't normally manage to make it to every game of the season. At £175 for a season ticket, it suddenly becomes an attractive proposition for an adult who only typically makes it to 8 games in the Frank Adams.
As for this..
no. I pointed out that your comment that it would be easy to establish a scheme to reward season ticket holders without affecting revenue was wrong - it self evidently is. if it was easy the 48 lower league clubs would be doing it already.
I'm sure you're already aware that this is a logical fallacy but posted it anyway. Selling sliced bread is easy, but it still had to be done a first time.
Comments
It's a fair point. My first Wycombe game was free with the purchase of a pair of Gola trainers. They've had plenty of cash out of me since.
One of specials have their place. Little evidence they generate much if any repeat business but worth a try from time to time.
Permantly reduced prices would almost certainly be financial suicide. If you reduce prices by a third, you need to attract a 50per cent increase in crowd just to break even. There is no evidence to suggest this is remotely achievable. "Profit on teas and coffees" is a red herring.
Objectively it is very likely that if the club wants to maximise revenue, it should actually increase prices by a couple of quid a ticket. Suspect that won't be popular though'
@TheNixonTapes you really think it's that simple? Drop the prices and the crowds will come? The club have tried many times over the years with price promotions, and it has been mentioned many times that they simply don't work. It's such a simplistic view to say that by dropping prices crowds will increase and therefore other takings will make up the difference.
If it's that straightforward then why isn't every club who has a partially empty stadium doing it?
Where it does work, is with season tickets. Bradford City have proven this several times.
Hartlepool tried it and it didn't work, at least beyond the first season. I don't think anything is guaranteed to work, although that doesn't mean it isn't worth exploring possible new ideas and trying some low risk ones.
Good article from a few years back about the Bantams' pricing experiments:
http://www.wsc.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6015&Itemid=38
They still run these schemes, and if you buy the next season's ticket early enough you can watch a full season for about a fiver a game. While we're obviously not going to get 18000 season ticket holders, it wouldn't too hard to implement a system that rewards season ticket purchases without causing a drop in revenue.
could you explain your suggestion, Dr Congo. Current scheme attracts c 2000 punters at an average price of around £275. Total revenue £550,000.
What is it you are suggesting - price and numbers that you believe will match or exceed that.
Stop making up statistics, it drives people mad.
That average season ticket price is a complete guess
Of course its a guess, Eric. That's why it says "around". It could be £250 or £300, likely to be somewhere in that range.
What I am looking for is to assess whether Congos assertion that it wouldn't be too hard to devise a system that rewards season ticket holders without causing a drop in revenue. I am interested in what he has in mind.
Is he for example suggesting we cut all prices by half - OK but then you would have to double season ticket holders to stay the same. I await with interest his response .
An alternative suggestion. The location of the stadium means not many irregular attemdees will come along to the game spontaneously because they happen to be around and notice there is one on, as would more likely happen if the stadium was near the town centre. Instead of reducing ticket prices, why not keep them as they are and try running a fleet of free or subsidised mini buses from town to the ground. They could drive around bearing flags and sounding their horns or playing music to draw attention, in a similar manner to ice cream vans, and pick people up.
I've no idea how much this would cost, but I do think a few extras may be attracted each week and it would raise awareness in town that a match is on and perhaps encourage others to come along using their own means of transport too.
I like this idea. A bit like the Spearmint Rhino minibus that used to hang about outside the Litten Tree on Frogmoor every Thursday night.
I can see some merit in the idea, but it runs the risk of the club simply subsidising the transport of existing fans rather than attracting new ones.
You never did get back to me with details of your cunning plan to presumably reduce season ticket prices without affecting revenue - Dr C. You know the one that wasn't particularly hard to devise. Interested to see what you had in mind.
Surely the Chairman could provide some adapted ice cream vans to pick up new fans?
@mooneyman I'd quite like to see a quartered neopolitan ice cream in the Oxford and Cambridge blue. Does anyone have a name for such a wonderful creation?
wouldn't be a massive shock to discover he's using that mute function on you Dev
That would be a shame. Perhaps in his absence, you could suggest something positive??
@bill_stickers What would the flavours be? Blueberry and bubblegum?
There are loads of things you could try Dev, use your imagination
For example you could introduce the scheme that other clubs have whereby if x season tickets are sold then they cost y, the prices reducing accordingly as each target is met
You could incentivise spending in areas where profit margin in higher by issuing rewards which could be offset against the cost of a season ticket, eg spend £50 in the club shop get £5 off a season ticket
You could have special offers for lapsed season ticket holders. Come back and we'll give you a tenner off, that sort of thing
You could have special offers for first time season ticket holders
You could offer discount rates for 4 or more season tickets bought together
You could throw in one or two cup games, or at least offer cheaper tickets to cup games if you've got a season ticket
I'm not saying these are particularly groundbreaking, or even if they'd work, but to just say that there's nothing that could be done is defeatist
There's no point addressing the figures you posted specifically because they were made up. You could counter it by saying that if you sold £100 season tickets behind the goal you'd sell an extra 1000. It's pointless
Thanks Eric, much more interesting post than just cheap moaning and sniping.
Dr Congo argued that it would be easy to establish a scheme yo "reward" season ticket holders without affecting revenue. I am afraid that is simply not true. 48 lower league teams have exactly the same issue, 48 lower league teams will have racked their brains on how they can benefit from empty seats that cost nothing. Nobody has really cracked it.
The Bradford example was interesting. I believe one other club tried it without success. You may be aware of more. It is telling that no one else has seen merit in it. It is unlikely to work and maybe significantly counterproductive in clubs other than large economically deprived cities.
To fill those seats you would have to do something dramatic, your suggestion of a tenner off is extremely unlikely to change behaviours or stimulate demand in any meaningful way. It would have to be far larger - £50 or so minimum I would have thought. - just as an example £200 instead of £250 - maybe more.
And then you get the time honoured issue that while a few people may be stimulated by lower prices to buy, that additional revenue is likely to be dwarfed by loss of revenue from those prepared to pay £250 but delighted instead to be asked to pay £200.
Now you can come up with schemes to try to exclude those prepared to pay higher rates, as you have with new season ticket holder discounts and lapsed season ticket discounts. But all schemes where significant discounts are offered will be abused - a current season ticket holder may very well ask hos neighbour to buy his ticket for him and thus attract the discount for example.
You can assume if you wish that all those who run football clubs are lazy and stupid and haven't bothered to examine alternatives and seek to copy any that others have tried that have worked. More realistically IMHO you can conclude that there is a limited amount that can be done and most kneejerk schemes will lose rather than generate cash.
Oh and you can guarantee that for every scheme that is dreamed up, they will try to assess revenue from that scheme against the default revenue from the status quo. Its how business works.
Closing the A404 on Saturdays might be good idea
@devc I've posted the detail of my idea on here before, but the tl;dr version is that you price the tickets on a sliding scale, and run it like a kickstarter in that the money doesn't come out until a set date. You then reduce the cost for everyone the more tickets are sold. If everyone knows the goals, it's a very simple way to massively engage the fan base in doing the club's marketing for them.
I do also appreciate that you took so much time to debunk something that you hadn't yet heard. The only way that entire post could have been more straw-man would have been for you to write it on straw in the shape of a man and then set fire to it on a remote Scottish island.
I think that would lead to big cash flow problems over the summer, if we are talking not taking any season ticket money until August.
Then you start it earlier. Bradford's cheapest discount starts before Xmas of the previous season.
I responded to Eric Plant's suggestions, the clue was "Thanks Eric .....". You hadn't posted your scheme by then. I had no idea what it was.
Your scheme seems to be the Bradford scheme as far as I can tell. Have I misunderstood it? Every other bottom two divisions club will have looked at that scheme. I believe one other club tried it unsuccessfully. They have presumably all concluded it doesn't work for them. My instinct is to agree with them.
If I have misunderstood your idea, I would be interested in the details.
Funny, I thought the clue was the bit where you said
And then went on to construct a straw man to "prove" how not true it is.
no. I pointed out that your comment that it would be easy to establish a scheme to reward season ticket holders without affecting revenue was wrong - it self evidently is. if it was easy the 48 lower league clubs would be doing it already.
then I responded to Erics interesting post. I cant respond to yours as I don't know what it is, but on the face of it appears to be a rehash of the Bradford scheme. Is that right?
Crikey. No dev, no it isn't. Bradford simply reward early purchasers, as do Wycombe and every other club. If you have a look at the official WWFC website you'll see you can buy a season ticket at a discount at the moment. The only difference being that Bradford offer much greater discounts. This scheme would reward all season ticket purchasers before a set deadline, with the reward becoming larger the more season tickets get sold.
Using your assumed average price of £250, and the club's prediction of 2100 season ticket sales, the minimum take we'd want from season ticket sales would be £525k. If we could sell 4000 season tickets (very long shot, obviously) this could bring the average price of a season ticket down to £131.25 for the same revenue. 3000 tickets would require an average price of £175.
So, you set a deadline as the start of the summer close season for the promotion to end, and everybody who pledges to buy a season ticket before that deadline, gets it at the same price (or same level of discount). You then set targets for sales that will trigger the discount levels. So everyone pledges initially at a small discount, and the more pledges received the greater the discount received.
Consequently, at every level of discount, a season ticket suddenly becomes a more viable option for people who don't normally manage to make it to every game of the season. At £175 for a season ticket, it suddenly becomes an attractive proposition for an adult who only typically makes it to 8 games in the Frank Adams.
As for this..
I'm sure you're already aware that this is a logical fallacy but posted it anyway. Selling sliced bread is easy, but it still had to be done a first time.
Very good idea drcongo - I simply don't understand why clubs are seemingly unwilling to engage such ideas.