Excellent post Malone. It is a fact of life at this level that you can't build a team around anyone. If a player is that good, then he isn't going to be here long e.g Scowen, Philips, Hause etc. Apart from that if that key player suffers a long term injury the team is stuffed.
If O'Nien carries on improving then he won't be here beyond next season. It is not the end of the world, because someone else will come in and take his place. Look at the central defenders we have had Johnson (Roger) then Williamson, then Hause now Pierre.
Holloway has achieved nothing tangible in his career to date other than 10 goals at 23 years of age. He may well go on to greater things, as may Angol, Morias etc, but a club like Wycombe with so limited financial resources cannot afford to take a chance and build a team around these individuals.
It cannot be a fact but agree that he almost certainly would have done. On the other hand Gozie might score a couple of hat-tricks in the next ten days. What's that about pigs?
In my opinion ugwu will probably never score a league hat trick.
Nice fella I'm sure but there is an element of headless chicken about him. A striker with his physical abilities should make up for the lack of technical ability.
I'm not convinced he will score from further than 2 yards out
This was AAH second full season as his first season he was signed with long term harm strings problems which didn't hinder AAH this season apart from bench splinters and ankle ligament a month ago.
Remind me @mooneyman; apart from the L2 play off medals I know of, who in the squad have won a string of honours? In relative years.
@Ciderk1d said:
This was AAH second full season as his first season he was signed with long term harm strings problems which didn't hinder AAH this season apart from bench splinters and ankle ligament a month ago.
Remind me mooneyman; apart from the L2 play off medals I know of, who in the squad have won a string of honours? In relative years.
There a few on here your best off ignoring tbh. Old school!
For all his undoubted potential and ability who could argue that he deserved to start every game this season? Even if he wasn't injured for much of the time, which he was.
That is not to say that Hayes, Thompson, Ugwu or any of the others that have been in the squad as strikers for that matter.
Maybe he will flourish at another club, country, level and if he does the manager there deserves a huge pat on the back.
Not really got involved in this discussion as I've found it quite hard to equate my views with the black or white ones being expressed by others. I really like Holloway as a player. His first touch was fantastic for a big man and probably second only to Beavon from our recent strikers. I loved his ability to shoot with power with such a small back lift and in tight spaces. Basically he has skills I enjoyed watching.
Ainsworth stretched the budget last season to sign him late but his injury record must have been a worry.
I really hope he proves to be a success somewhere. Scotland might be a good place for him. His situation really just goes to show to me that ability only gets you some far. Attitude and environment are massive factors and the world is littered with very talented people in lots of field who either didn't get it right mentally or who events conspire against them.
As a famous medal winning Olympian once said to me'The only difference between you and me is excuses'
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub; that's been my point we went with Hayes and Thommo combo and suffice suffice it didn't go to plan as we brought in loanees (3 upfront) apart from PCH made a big difference until he got injured.
That's why a few mentioned man management of AAH, as if you believe it will come good next seen with Hayes and Thommo a year older (combination) I will eat my mobile.
@Chris Whilst the context of the quote cannot be fully conveyed I find it a valueable touchstone day to day. Excuses are the biggest barrier to ability, not matter how high or low that ability might be. I agree with you that I never had the talent to be an Olympic champion but if I'd made less excuses about things I was talented at I'd be much better.
I quite often put Holloway and Dean Morgan in that category.
@mooneyman said:
Sorry Cider you have lost me, I am not very good at translating gibberish.
Tbfh, you spout utter gibberish then mask it with digs. Still waiting on the list of players in our squad, who have achieved something tangible, In the past few years?
As requested Cider - Paul Hayes First Division Championship medal with Charlton 11/12 and Marcus Bean Second Division Championsip medal with Brentford 08/09. Next question?
@mooneyman ; fair play, cheers for that, so AAH as well as representing his country at junior level and a L2 play offs medal, hasn't done to bad relatively for a 2 year playing professional. So chop chop AAH, he has 6/7 years to surpass a total two medals (Including L2 playoffs) if ofc Hayes and Bean don't add any more honours.
I can see why it's an appealing thought for an Olympian to have - that they had got where they were entirely through their own hard work. I'm not disputing that they have to dedicate their lives to their discipline in order to have the success that they do, but other people could put in the same amount of effort and come up with much lesser results. It completely fails to acknowledge the impact of luck, whether that's indirectly in the form of genetics & environment in which they grew up, or directly through injuries to competitors or things just going their way on the day.
It's ridiculous to suggest that if, say, Luke O'Nien didn't make excuses and just knuckled down then he could have the success in their fields of Christiano Ronaldo, Tyson Fury, Victoria Pendleton, or Usain Bolt.
Cider, I only counted CHAMPIONSHIP medals not second class play off ones. Paul Hayes also got promotion with Barnsley 05/06 and Scunthorpe 08/09. Jacobson got promotion with Bristol Rovers 07/08. Gary Thompson promotion with Scunthorpe 08/09 and Bradford City 12/13 AND League Cup runners up medal with Bradford 2013. If your man achieves that level I will be very impressed.
@Chris I think you are missing the point I was trying to make but that's ok. I am a bit geeky about the mindsets required to maximise performance.
All I was trying to say was that excuses reduce performance. Without them you can be 100% of what you are capable of. Of course that 100% level is different for each person but people with world class talent aren't always world class athletes.
Just as an aside Tyson Fury is an awful example plain and simple. Vicky Pendleton is a very complex case too. Try reading up on her story and see what you think.
Usain Bolt is a great example though as he actually doesn't have identikit 100 metre physic but maximises it perfectly.
I think they are perfect examples - one of the best in their world in their sport (of course that's always difficult to judge) with a level of performance that the vast majority of people couldn't ever achieve no matter how much effort they put it and how few excuses they gave.
I do agree with your main point that attitude is important as well as talent - in fact, isn't something similar written in the Wycombe dressing room? But let's not overstate things and tip the scales too far the other way.
Probably I am being somewhat pedantic, but as nobody is perfect, it is impossible for an individual to reach 100% of his/her capability in a sporting level as their absolute limit is unknown.
The concept of excuses being an impediment to achievement is interesting. The implication seems to be that if you make excuses for underperforming you are too egocentric or lacking in focus to fulfil your potential. In the case of Dean Morgan I can see that this may have been the case, assuming that chips on shoulders qualify as excuses, but I'm not sure to what extent the concept applies to the subject of this thread.
I have to confess at this point that I have been described in the past as a well-balanced character as I had a chip on both shoulders.
@mooneyman it depends if you're rating 100% as the level attained, or the specific performance.
ie Bolt has reached 100% of his potential, in that he's won a sh!Ttonne of gold medals for the 100metres. He has reached the best in the world status. You can't get better than that, you can't therefore argue that isn't 100%.
But if you say 9.59 or whatever he's run is 100%, that's less possible to debate.
Why isn't 9.58 his 100% etc etc
But if Bolt wins all the gold medals in say a 12 year period, but someone else holds the world record, who is actually the best in the world? I would say the world record holder insofar as he has runner faster than anyone else.
Bolt's a special case, as he holds the lot, as he has 100% maximised.
Mo Farah's a better example of what you mean. Won the golds at Olympics, but hasn't held a world record (I don't think)
For me, the best in a solo sport is always officially the winner of the biggest event in the sport. You generally need to beat the best, and it's on the biggest stage at the selected venue.
A fastest time could be set in isolation, in favourable conditions/field etc, with none of the rivals in attendance.
The individual who sets the fastest time would be considered the best in a sport, such as cycling, which employs time trials.
Athletics, swimming, etc. are decided by the winner of a race (as is cycling in some of the other events) and in these cases it is, naturally, harder to consider the person who sets the fastest time as necessarily the best.
In the case of Usain Bolt - he is indisputably the best as he has both WR and a sack full of gold medals. Great role model. Always seems to exhibit a cheerful demeanour, comes across well in interviews - I wouldn't have thought you could get much more 100% than that.
Comments
Excellent post Malone. It is a fact of life at this level that you can't build a team around anyone. If a player is that good, then he isn't going to be here long e.g Scowen, Philips, Hause etc. Apart from that if that key player suffers a long term injury the team is stuffed.
If O'Nien carries on improving then he won't be here beyond next season. It is not the end of the world, because someone else will come in and take his place. Look at the central defenders we have had Johnson (Roger) then Williamson, then Hause now Pierre.
Holloway has achieved nothing tangible in his career to date other than 10 goals at 23 years of age. He may well go on to greater things, as may Angol, Morias etc, but a club like Wycombe with so limited financial resources cannot afford to take a chance and build a team around these individuals.
Holloway would have scored more goals than Ugwu for Wycombe this season. That is a fact
It cannot be a fact but agree that he almost certainly would have done. On the other hand Gozie might score a couple of hat-tricks in the next ten days. What's that about pigs?
@micra
In my opinion ugwu will probably never score a league hat trick.
Nice fella I'm sure but there is an element of headless chicken about him. A striker with his physical abilities should make up for the lack of technical ability.
I'm not convinced he will score from further than 2 yards out
This was AAH second full season as his first season he was signed with long term harm strings problems which didn't hinder AAH this season apart from bench splinters and ankle ligament a month ago.
Remind me @mooneyman; apart from the L2 play off medals I know of, who in the squad have won a string of honours? In relative years.
Thompson scored more goals last season (in League 1) than Amadi-Holloway has in his career.
And with a few goals in the upcoming games (I know, I know) he could do the same again this season.
Sorry Cider you have lost me, I am not very good at translating gibberish.
There a few on here your best off ignoring tbh. Old school!
For all his undoubted potential and ability who could argue that he deserved to start every game this season? Even if he wasn't injured for much of the time, which he was.
That is not to say that Hayes, Thompson, Ugwu or any of the others that have been in the squad as strikers for that matter.
Maybe he will flourish at another club, country, level and if he does the manager there deserves a huge pat on the back.
Not really got involved in this discussion as I've found it quite hard to equate my views with the black or white ones being expressed by others. I really like Holloway as a player. His first touch was fantastic for a big man and probably second only to Beavon from our recent strikers. I loved his ability to shoot with power with such a small back lift and in tight spaces. Basically he has skills I enjoyed watching.
Ainsworth stretched the budget last season to sign him late but his injury record must have been a worry.
I really hope he proves to be a success somewhere. Scotland might be a good place for him. His situation really just goes to show to me that ability only gets you some far. Attitude and environment are massive factors and the world is littered with very talented people in lots of field who either didn't get it right mentally or who events conspire against them.
As a famous medal winning Olympian once said to me'The only difference between you and me is excuses'
Proving that Olympians might all be good at sport, but not all are great at thinking.
But other than that I entirely agree with you.
Even without AAH, if we had beaten York and Yeovil we would still have been in with a play-off chance!
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub - is it me or is your second paragraph incomplete?
@micra Nah, just piss poor typing on my phone. My point was that none of our strikers have covered themselves in glory.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub; that's been my point we went with Hayes and Thommo combo and suffice suffice it didn't go to plan as we brought in loanees (3 upfront) apart from PCH made a big difference until he got injured.
That's why a few mentioned man management of AAH, as if you believe it will come good next seen with Hayes and Thommo a year older (combination) I will eat my mobile.
@Chris Whilst the context of the quote cannot be fully conveyed I find it a valueable touchstone day to day. Excuses are the biggest barrier to ability, not matter how high or low that ability might be. I agree with you that I never had the talent to be an Olympic champion but if I'd made less excuses about things I was talented at I'd be much better.
I quite often put Holloway and Dean Morgan in that category.
Tbfh, you spout utter gibberish then mask it with digs. Still waiting on the list of players in our squad, who have achieved something tangible, In the past few years?
As requested Cider - Paul Hayes First Division Championship medal with Charlton 11/12 and Marcus Bean Second Division Championsip medal with Brentford 08/09. Next question?
@mooneyman ; fair play, cheers for that, so AAH as well as representing his country at junior level and a L2 play offs medal, hasn't done to bad relatively for a 2 year playing professional. So chop chop AAH, he has 6/7 years to surpass a total two medals (Including L2 playoffs) if ofc Hayes and Bean don't add any more honours.
@Right_in_the_Middle
I can see why it's an appealing thought for an Olympian to have - that they had got where they were entirely through their own hard work. I'm not disputing that they have to dedicate their lives to their discipline in order to have the success that they do, but other people could put in the same amount of effort and come up with much lesser results. It completely fails to acknowledge the impact of luck, whether that's indirectly in the form of genetics & environment in which they grew up, or directly through injuries to competitors or things just going their way on the day.
It's ridiculous to suggest that if, say, Luke O'Nien didn't make excuses and just knuckled down then he could have the success in their fields of Christiano Ronaldo, Tyson Fury, Victoria Pendleton, or Usain Bolt.
Cider, I only counted CHAMPIONSHIP medals not second class play off ones. Paul Hayes also got promotion with Barnsley 05/06 and Scunthorpe 08/09. Jacobson got promotion with Bristol Rovers 07/08. Gary Thompson promotion with Scunthorpe 08/09 and Bradford City 12/13 AND League Cup runners up medal with Bradford 2013. If your man achieves that level I will be very impressed.
@Chris I think you are missing the point I was trying to make but that's ok. I am a bit geeky about the mindsets required to maximise performance.
All I was trying to say was that excuses reduce performance. Without them you can be 100% of what you are capable of. Of course that 100% level is different for each person but people with world class talent aren't always world class athletes.
Just as an aside Tyson Fury is an awful example plain and simple. Vicky Pendleton is a very complex case too. Try reading up on her story and see what you think.
Usain Bolt is a great example though as he actually doesn't have identikit 100 metre physic but maximises it perfectly.
I think they are perfect examples - one of the best in their world in their sport (of course that's always difficult to judge) with a level of performance that the vast majority of people couldn't ever achieve no matter how much effort they put it and how few excuses they gave.
I do agree with your main point that attitude is important as well as talent - in fact, isn't something similar written in the Wycombe dressing room? But let's not overstate things and tip the scales too far the other way.
Probably I am being somewhat pedantic, but as nobody is perfect, it is impossible for an individual to reach 100% of his/her capability in a sporting level as their absolute limit is unknown.
The concept of excuses being an impediment to achievement is interesting. The implication seems to be that if you make excuses for underperforming you are too egocentric or lacking in focus to fulfil your potential. In the case of Dean Morgan I can see that this may have been the case, assuming that chips on shoulders qualify as excuses, but I'm not sure to what extent the concept applies to the subject of this thread.
I have to confess at this point that I have been described in the past as a well-balanced character as I had a chip on both shoulders.
@mooneyman it depends if you're rating 100% as the level attained, or the specific performance.
ie Bolt has reached 100% of his potential, in that he's won a sh!Ttonne of gold medals for the 100metres. He has reached the best in the world status. You can't get better than that, you can't therefore argue that isn't 100%.
But if you say 9.59 or whatever he's run is 100%, that's less possible to debate.
Why isn't 9.58 his 100% etc etc
But if Bolt wins all the gold medals in say a 12 year period, but someone else holds the world record, who is actually the best in the world? I would say the world record holder insofar as he has runner faster than anyone else.
Bolt's a special case, as he holds the lot, as he has 100% maximised.
Mo Farah's a better example of what you mean. Won the golds at Olympics, but hasn't held a world record (I don't think)
For me, the best in a solo sport is always officially the winner of the biggest event in the sport. You generally need to beat the best, and it's on the biggest stage at the selected venue.
A fastest time could be set in isolation, in favourable conditions/field etc, with none of the rivals in attendance.
Departed somewhat from original topic! Bit esoteric. (I did try to steer it back.)
The individual who sets the fastest time would be considered the best in a sport, such as cycling, which employs time trials.
Athletics, swimming, etc. are decided by the winner of a race (as is cycling in some of the other events) and in these cases it is, naturally, harder to consider the person who sets the fastest time as necessarily the best.
In the case of Usain Bolt - he is indisputably the best as he has both WR and a sack full of gold medals. Great role model. Always seems to exhibit a cheerful demeanour, comes across well in interviews - I wouldn't have thought you could get much more 100% than that.