Seems there are four separate questions here.
1) Does the club have the capability to challenge whether blue badges have been properly issued - I think all would agree no.
2) Is it demeaning to ask blue badge holders to confirm their identity on arrival - hard to see why if done respectfully
3) Should unlimited blue badge parking be provided - there have to be some limitations depending on capacity constraints but I think all would agree that where possible those in need of parking should be facilitated.
4) Should blue badge parking be free - And that's the controversial one. I suspect all would wish those on very restricted incomes as a result of their disability to be assisted. By far from all blue badge holders fall into this category. Society's aim should be where possible to provide disabled people equality of opportunity in the workplace and for those where this is possible, equality of opportunity means they should also bear their equal share of costs of society. If you believe truly in equality, it is hard to argue why a blue badge holder earning £30k per year should get cheaper or more expensive parking than an able bodied person earning £30k. This one would need a little more discussion with disabled supporters - not sure I am decided on this.
Blue badge spaces should be free, the club should provide enough spaces so that for most games all blue badge holders can be accommodated, all blue badge holders should be ready to provide ID on arrival in order to take advantage of the spaces.
Eric, could you explain why you see it as demeaning for a blue badge holder to confirm he/she is the registered holder before taking advantage of dedicated spaces. I don't understand your logic here.
Payment/free I don't think is clear-cut for reasons I have said. I would want to review current practise elsewhere and discuss with disabled supporters on this issue.
I guess I don't see the big deal with providing ID? Taking a few seconds to show ID and getting a free and accessible space seems vastly preferable to not getting a space because they are all taken, or having to pay.
I have no idea about the misuse of blue badges, but the club has seemed to indicate that it is an issue.
@DevC@Chris For me, at least, since the club didn't issue the blue badges it's none of their business who is using them. For once, we need to be prepared to lose money instead of good will.
Many people (myself included) drive disabled people around (my misses). Due to her not being able to drive, she owns no idea other than her passport and wouldn't really be happy to take that to the football ground. You could say 'common sense' that the lady in the wheel chair is obviously disabled but there are cases like MS or learning difficulties where it would be far harder to discern and they to are unlikely to have ID.
There is also an issue in normal situations (not necessarily relevant here), where a person may need to park in a blue badge spot to collect someone in a wheelchair or is physically unable. It is difficult to prove if someone is legitimately there for that purpose or not. Where this could arise is people returning to vehicles to get medication or other things. It could create a flash point with some carers.
I've been a primary carer for a decade now and have had many discussions amongst ourselves on this topic but never has there been a consensus on what is the best policy.
I fundamentally disagree Floyd, and that also doesn't correspond with the law re blue badge usage.
I agree totally that the club is no position to question whether a blue badge has been properly issued to Mr. A.
I see no reason at all however why the club should not check that Mr A is in the car (not necessarily driving) when it arrives at AP.
On street parking concessions, including yellow line parking are only available to vehicles if the blue badge holder himself is in the car. Not sure we should be any different.
I also think that if there are not enough disabled spaces in the main car park, then more of the spaces should allocated as disabled and those more able bodied who usually park in the main car park would now be allocated to the upper car park.
@floyd said:
DevC Chris For me, at least, since the club didn't issue the blue badges it's none of their business who is using them. For once, we need to be prepared to lose money instead of good will.
It's not about the money, it's about making sure the spaces are available for those who need them.
@DevC how is that enforced? Genuine question. I had a friend with a blue badge in college, as long as no one saw me do it, what was to stop me using it without her? Certainly I never saw anyone ask her for ID.
A blue Badge holder can hold the badge if there are a carer of a disabled person and not disabled themselves.
Would it be right for them to take advantage of the Disabled space if they are NOT bringing the disabled person to a home game?
Should the club Actively discourage those that may be doing that? (or at least investigate if this has happened?)
Could it possibly be that this situation occurred because a genuinely disabled supporter complained to the club they could not park in a disabled space and they had seen someone they believe to be bending the rules?
I would agree a Charge is a clumsy way to discourage abuse of the system, but I have yet to see someone come up with a genuine alternative to make sure Disabled spaces are being used by those with disabilities.
Extremely difficult, I would have thought, Floyd. . I guess if a cop/parking assistant happened to be passing at the right time and was suspicious, they could challenge, otherwise no chance. Doesn't stop it being the law though, which establishes the principle.
It is presumptuous to put myself in the position of a blue badge holder but I really cant see that I would be in any way offended if I was asked politely and respectfully to prove it was mine, especially if my disability wasn't self-evident. In fact I think I would be quite pleased that appropriate action was being taken to prevent inappropriate usage stopping me using a parking space I need.
Assuming the clubs parking is on private land, you could always ask blue badge holders to display their badges the wrong way around. You would have picture evidence of who the badge belongs to then. Of course, you'd not be able to see if the badge was I date that way.
As a disabled person myself I can confirm that the blue badge has a picture of the said person on the reverse. Therefore it wouldn't be too much to ask for the steward at the gate could check the picture on the badge matches someone in the car. I was born with my disability and use a chair. My dad is also a blue badge holder due to ill health. It was wrong in my opinion to charge everyone because of a few fraudulently using a blue badge. For a number of seasons now I have had to give the club proof of my entitlement to DLA (now PIP) and a blue badge in order to park in the disabled spaces. My dad and I after alot of discussion have already paid the charge for next season. I was very unhappy to do so. But as Wycombe Wanderers is such a big part of my life I was left with little choice but to break the bank. I assume that this charge is now being reconsidered. I certainly hope so.
I would like the club to introduce numbered allocated disabled parking so that regular users such as myself no long have to turn up at 12pm for a 3pm kickoff.
I agree that the club should stop charging fans for parking who are using the blue badge appropriately.
@Davieboy & @FallenFlyer Did the club make an attempt to engage with those who use the accessible parking spaces? Or was the decision made without any consultation?
Floyd is absolutely right, this is a difficult issue to get right. Eric while undoubtedly well intentioned and principled, I think your view is misguided.
Let me explain.
Alan has worked in a low paid job all his life. His son who accompanies him to football is disabled. Alan has just been made redundant.
Brian is exactly the same position except his son Barry is not disabled.
Chris has been Md of a large business for years. Sadly he had a car accident and is now wheelchair bound but his mind is still as razor sharp as ever and he continues to hold a well paid Job
Dan runs the factory next door. He has no health issues.
Ed has a disabled wife. She doesn't come to footie. He has a decent job.
I am sure we would all agree that Ed should not abuse his wife's blue badge and deserves no special treatment.
Alan and Chris need to park near the ground. Income is largely irrelevant to their need. The others can walk from further away.
You would give Chris financial support with a free space. While he needs a space I see no reason why he shouldn't pay for it. I would rather financially support Brian.
I understand this is theoretical. I don't know how to achieve the ideal. My number one priority is to ensurealan and Chris get the practical help they need. My number two priority is to help Alan and ideally Brian but not Chris with the cost of the match. I would prefer to stop Ed taking the piss.
How to achieve this? Don't know. I would look at what others do and copy the best.
Maybe my ideal is not achievable at all.
The ideal is that people pay a fair amount that they can afford to park and to watch Wycombe. Allowing people with disabilities to park free seems a helpful contribution towards the ideal, without being perfect. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
In addition to the argument about economic fairness, people with disabilities might not have any option other than driving to the ground. This adds weight to the view that you shouldn't charge them to park.
• Disabled people are far less likely to be in employment. In March 2013, the UK employment rate among working age disabled people was 49% (4.1 million), compared to 81.8% of non-disabled people.
• 44.3% of working age disabled people are economically inactive. This figure is nearly 4 times higher than for non-disabled people (11.5 %).
Surely most of the disabled blue badge holders are either season ticket holders or regular visitors to the ground, so the club's staff should be aware who is legitimate and therefore only needs to check the few occasional visitors. It does annoy me that the club is attempting to financially penalise the legitimate disabled purely because a few are abusing it. The Trust needs to wake up and treat the less fortunate in a more caring way instead of looking at a financial gain.
You may be right. Before I made a call on it, I would be trying to assess all sorts of factors including whether those who use blue badge parking at wwfc are significantly more likely to have lower disposable incomes, how many people tend to be in each blue badge car etc. without that info I think we can only speculate on what is fair. Hopefully Ah has thought it through with more data.
@Chris There was no consultation as far as I know. My dad went to renew our tickets and there was no mention of the need to pay for a disabled parking space. Then it appeared in the BFP the very next day. Dad contacted the club and received a call back from someone (no idea who) Only to be told the charge was non negotiable. So after much soul searching we grudgingly paid for the parking some days after. I also remember earlier in this past season a charge of £5 a game came in around the time of the Oxford home game. We paid £5 that day. After many complaints the charge then seemed to disappear. We also paid for parking at the Villa game. Even though we had to park the opposite end of the ground to where we enter. I think that was either £8 or £10. I wait with interest to find out the outcome of any meetings on the subject. and Maybe I will get my parking charge for the next season refunded.
Comments
Seems there are four separate questions here.
1) Does the club have the capability to challenge whether blue badges have been properly issued - I think all would agree no.
2) Is it demeaning to ask blue badge holders to confirm their identity on arrival - hard to see why if done respectfully
3) Should unlimited blue badge parking be provided - there have to be some limitations depending on capacity constraints but I think all would agree that where possible those in need of parking should be facilitated.
4) Should blue badge parking be free - And that's the controversial one. I suspect all would wish those on very restricted incomes as a result of their disability to be assisted. By far from all blue badge holders fall into this category. Society's aim should be where possible to provide disabled people equality of opportunity in the workplace and for those where this is possible, equality of opportunity means they should also bear their equal share of costs of society. If you believe truly in equality, it is hard to argue why a blue badge holder earning £30k per year should get cheaper or more expensive parking than an able bodied person earning £30k. This one would need a little more discussion with disabled supporters - not sure I am decided on this.
@floyd hear hear. Agree with every word of that
Dev:
(In order)
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Blue badge spaces should be free, the club should provide enough spaces so that for most games all blue badge holders can be accommodated, all blue badge holders should be ready to provide ID on arrival in order to take advantage of the spaces.
Why? Is this perceived fraud so widespread that this is the only solution?
You genuinely want WWFC approaching fans in wheelchairs asking for ID? What's the matter with you?
Eric, could you explain why you see it as demeaning for a blue badge holder to confirm he/she is the registered holder before taking advantage of dedicated spaces. I don't understand your logic here.
Payment/free I don't think is clear-cut for reasons I have said. I would want to review current practise elsewhere and discuss with disabled supporters on this issue.
I guess I don't see the big deal with providing ID? Taking a few seconds to show ID and getting a free and accessible space seems vastly preferable to not getting a space because they are all taken, or having to pay.
I have no idea about the misuse of blue badges, but the club has seemed to indicate that it is an issue.
@DevC @Chris For me, at least, since the club didn't issue the blue badges it's none of their business who is using them. For once, we need to be prepared to lose money instead of good will.
The ID thing is rather difficult.
Many people (myself included) drive disabled people around (my misses). Due to her not being able to drive, she owns no idea other than her passport and wouldn't really be happy to take that to the football ground. You could say 'common sense' that the lady in the wheel chair is obviously disabled but there are cases like MS or learning difficulties where it would be far harder to discern and they to are unlikely to have ID.
There is also an issue in normal situations (not necessarily relevant here), where a person may need to park in a blue badge spot to collect someone in a wheelchair or is physically unable. It is difficult to prove if someone is legitimately there for that purpose or not. Where this could arise is people returning to vehicles to get medication or other things. It could create a flash point with some carers.
I've been a primary carer for a decade now and have had many discussions amongst ourselves on this topic but never has there been a consensus on what is the best policy.
I fundamentally disagree Floyd, and that also doesn't correspond with the law re blue badge usage.
I agree totally that the club is no position to question whether a blue badge has been properly issued to Mr. A.
I see no reason at all however why the club should not check that Mr A is in the car (not necessarily driving) when it arrives at AP.
On street parking concessions, including yellow line parking are only available to vehicles if the blue badge holder himself is in the car. Not sure we should be any different.
I think blue badge parking should be free.
I also think that if there are not enough disabled spaces in the main car park, then more of the spaces should allocated as disabled and those more able bodied who usually park in the main car park would now be allocated to the upper car park.
It's not about the money, it's about making sure the spaces are available for those who need them.
@DevC how is that enforced? Genuine question. I had a friend with a blue badge in college, as long as no one saw me do it, what was to stop me using it without her? Certainly I never saw anyone ask her for ID.
@Chris no disagreement there, but there has to be a better way of doing it.
A blue Badge holder can hold the badge if there are a carer of a disabled person and not disabled themselves.
Would it be right for them to take advantage of the Disabled space if they are NOT bringing the disabled person to a home game?
Should the club Actively discourage those that may be doing that? (or at least investigate if this has happened?)
Could it possibly be that this situation occurred because a genuinely disabled supporter complained to the club they could not park in a disabled space and they had seen someone they believe to be bending the rules?
I would agree a Charge is a clumsy way to discourage abuse of the system, but I have yet to see someone come up with a genuine alternative to make sure Disabled spaces are being used by those with disabilities.
Extremely difficult, I would have thought, Floyd. . I guess if a cop/parking assistant happened to be passing at the right time and was suspicious, they could challenge, otherwise no chance. Doesn't stop it being the law though, which establishes the principle.
It is presumptuous to put myself in the position of a blue badge holder but I really cant see that I would be in any way offended if I was asked politely and respectfully to prove it was mine, especially if my disability wasn't self-evident. In fact I think I would be quite pleased that appropriate action was being taken to prevent inappropriate usage stopping me using a parking space I need.
Assuming the clubs parking is on private land, you could always ask blue badge holders to display their badges the wrong way around. You would have picture evidence of who the badge belongs to then. Of course, you'd not be able to see if the badge was I date that way.
@DevC Your first two words sum up the whole problem don't they? I hope the club find the suitable solution neither of us have thought of!
As a disabled person myself I can confirm that the blue badge has a picture of the said person on the reverse. Therefore it wouldn't be too much to ask for the steward at the gate could check the picture on the badge matches someone in the car. I was born with my disability and use a chair. My dad is also a blue badge holder due to ill health. It was wrong in my opinion to charge everyone because of a few fraudulently using a blue badge. For a number of seasons now I have had to give the club proof of my entitlement to DLA (now PIP) and a blue badge in order to park in the disabled spaces. My dad and I after alot of discussion have already paid the charge for next season. I was very unhappy to do so. But as Wycombe Wanderers is such a big part of my life I was left with little choice but to break the bank. I assume that this charge is now being reconsidered. I certainly hope so.
I would like the club to introduce numbered allocated disabled parking so that regular users such as myself no long have to turn up at 12pm for a 3pm kickoff.
Do the blue badges have photos on the other side? There isn't even a problem with people not having ID then. Seems simple enough.
@Davieboy it's shameful that you've been asked to pay to park next season. I can only hope that the club see sense and reverse this decision
I'm amazed that fellow supporters seem to want to defend the club on this
I agree that the club should stop charging fans for parking who are using the blue badge appropriately.
@Davieboy & @FallenFlyer Did the club make an attempt to engage with those who use the accessible parking spaces? Or was the decision made without any consultation?
Floyd is absolutely right, this is a difficult issue to get right. Eric while undoubtedly well intentioned and principled, I think your view is misguided.
Let me explain.
Alan has worked in a low paid job all his life. His son who accompanies him to football is disabled. Alan has just been made redundant.
Brian is exactly the same position except his son Barry is not disabled.
Chris has been Md of a large business for years. Sadly he had a car accident and is now wheelchair bound but his mind is still as razor sharp as ever and he continues to hold a well paid Job
Dan runs the factory next door. He has no health issues.
Ed has a disabled wife. She doesn't come to footie. He has a decent job.
I am sure we would all agree that Ed should not abuse his wife's blue badge and deserves no special treatment.
Alan and Chris need to park near the ground. Income is largely irrelevant to their need. The others can walk from further away.
You would give Chris financial support with a free space. While he needs a space I see no reason why he shouldn't pay for it. I would rather financially support Brian.
I understand this is theoretical. I don't know how to achieve the ideal. My number one priority is to ensurealan and Chris get the practical help they need. My number two priority is to help Alan and ideally Brian but not Chris with the cost of the match. I would prefer to stop Ed taking the piss.
How to achieve this? Don't know. I would look at what others do and copy the best.
Maybe my ideal is not achievable at all.
What about Dan?
The ideal is that people pay a fair amount that they can afford to park and to watch Wycombe. Allowing people with disabilities to park free seems a helpful contribution towards the ideal, without being perfect. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
In addition to the argument about economic fairness, people with disabilities might not have any option other than driving to the ground. This adds weight to the view that you shouldn't charge them to park.
• Disabled people are far less likely to be in employment. In March 2013, the UK employment rate among working age disabled people was 49% (4.1 million), compared to 81.8% of non-disabled people.
• 44.3% of working age disabled people are economically inactive. This figure is nearly 4 times higher than for non-disabled people (11.5 %).
http://www.papworthtrust.org.uk/sites/default/files/UK Disability facts and figures report 2014.pdf
Surely most of the disabled blue badge holders are either season ticket holders or regular visitors to the ground, so the club's staff should be aware who is legitimate and therefore only needs to check the few occasional visitors. It does annoy me that the club is attempting to financially penalise the legitimate disabled purely because a few are abusing it. The Trust needs to wake up and treat the less fortunate in a more caring way instead of looking at a financial gain.
Chris (not the Chris in my example! Oops.
You may be right. Before I made a call on it, I would be trying to assess all sorts of factors including whether those who use blue badge parking at wwfc are significantly more likely to have lower disposable incomes, how many people tend to be in each blue badge car etc. without that info I think we can only speculate on what is fair. Hopefully Ah has thought it through with more data.
How about, just as a matter of principle, we let disabled fans park at the ground for free, just because it's a good thing to do?
It would also be good to let people in for free. But this is the real world.
As it happens I agree with you, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't think critically about things.
@Chris There was no consultation as far as I know. My dad went to renew our tickets and there was no mention of the need to pay for a disabled parking space. Then it appeared in the BFP the very next day. Dad contacted the club and received a call back from someone (no idea who) Only to be told the charge was non negotiable. So after much soul searching we grudgingly paid for the parking some days after. I also remember earlier in this past season a charge of £5 a game came in around the time of the Oxford home game. We paid £5 that day. After many complaints the charge then seemed to disappear. We also paid for parking at the Villa game. Even though we had to park the opposite end of the ground to where we enter. I think that was either £8 or £10. I wait with interest to find out the outcome of any meetings on the subject. and Maybe I will get my parking charge for the next season refunded.