Still not quite clear whether the primary gripe is about results or style.
If it is results, here are a few statistics.
Last season the teams finishing 10th to 14th had a combined record of
home W 45 (39%) D 28 (24%) L 42 (37%)
away W 39 (34%) D 28 (24%) L 48 (42%)
This season WWFC record is
home W5 (36%) D4 (28%) L5 (36%)
away W6 (50%) D3 (25%) L3 (25%)
If you regard mid table as a strong effort this season given financial constraints, that would suggest that home form is pretty much as expected and away form well ahead of expectations. Of course if you were expecting automatic promotion or a championship with record points score, then the club is woefully underachieving.
Within a season, results will not come evenly, so you will get little runs of home wins or away defeats.
Style is a different question. Difficult to prove, but my impression is that broadly to get both attractive style and results, you need above average resources. If you have below average resources, you tend to get a choice of , at best, one or the other.
@DevC has well and truely bought in to the club PR machine and the scarce resources argument. Thinking about it that's probably far easier to do when you don't have the visual evidence of home performances over recent months. Personally I'm more negative about our future prosects than I have been for a while. It must have something to do with January results but I'm also pretty down about us cashing in on our resources. I know it will happen but the bird in the hand principle always sounds more positive. Once they are gone they are gone (unless you're Paris Cowan Hall I suppose)
I don't intend to just use sheer weight of words to move the debate on so one last thought.
What on earth has all this got to do with Holloway?
I am not sure what you are saying here
1) Do you accept as likely the much reported (but not guaranteed) suggestion that our playing budget is one of the six lowest in the league.
2) Do you accept that there is a strong correlation between playing budget and results and that this should therefore be a major factor in setting reasonable expectation of results. (obviously you strive to do better than expectations, so don't run the "its not all about money, its sport line, I know that. Also note the difference between expectations and targets which you would always set higher.)
If you answer yes to both questions, then the club is overachieving again against reasonable expectations in results terms at least. Style is a whole different argument as is whether WWFC can ever expect to retain promising young talent.
I got that impression @DevC . You make the same argument so often it's now ingrained. It just doesn't seem to stop you posting it time and time again.
To answer your questions though, I do broadly agree with both your statements. I have no reason to question point one if the club say that is the case and it does seem that the bigger spenders in each league are more often that not the most succesful. There are notable exceptions to that where big wages and large squads underperform but to put it in language you'll follow more than 50% of the time you are spot on.
Then we get on to the more intangible discussion on what is the expected achievement. In my opinion we did over achieve in results terms for long periods last season but fell away towards the end due to lack of squad depth and a playing style that was not helping long term player fitness. This season we have been mainly below that mark with some exceptions such as the Oxford home game and the second half performance against Villa.
What is the expectation though? I don't like the club line of being poor minnows but my views on that are posted elsewhere.
If we are recruiting players like Bean, Jacobson, Thomson and Hayes then we must have aspirations of success on the pitch. We are under achieving based on the ability of those players.
If we are building a squad of youngster we improve and sell on we are having some success but the well is drying up.
If we are helping other clubs youngster grow as players and as men we are massively successful.
If we are purely treading water as a club, rebuilding the finances and waiting for a debt free club I fear that will never happen.
As a fan I need something to cling on to. For as long as I and probably my Dad and late Grandad could remember Wycombe were a club pushing for trophies, league titles and promotions. In more recent times we've succeeded so much we have had bad seasons where relegation battles have given the focus. Very rarely has as season been a middle of the table effort.
What the club is selling in its communication is just that though. 61 points is the target. We won't stand in the way of our young talent. We are a great place for loan players.
There is getting less and less of our own to support and cling on to. I was proud of being a Wycombe fan at Villa. I suppose that type of night is something to cling on to but I worry that every time it happens our star players are out the door inside a fortnight.
nobody is leaving this club on the strength of the two Villa games ... if you think that your a joke ..... Ingram has been the radar of BIGGER clubs for along time and Pierre is somebody teams would maybe take a punt on as is O Nien but I doubt he will move and will sign here again.
Loads of words Righty, but seems to be pretty muddled thinking.
For me its quite clear. We have low income in comparison to most of our rivals and as you seem to agree, that means our expectation should be mid table at best. Our target should be to challenge for promotion and have good cup runs, and we should enjoy them when they come, but deep down we should recognise that they will be a bonus and not something we should expect to see every year.
As it happens the club has had a fantastic eighteen months, spending long periods at the top of the league, reaching Wembley for the first time in 20+ years and only a fortnight or so ago avoiding defeat at home against a top flight club for I think only the third time in our history (?). That is way better than we have any right to expect. If that isn't enough to keep you motivated, sadly I think you are doomed to a lifetime of disappointment. To describe that as "treading water" is with the greatest respect ridiculous.
If you really want to be perpetually at the top of the league, realistically the club has two choices, 1) drop down the leagues until it becomes a big fish in a small pond a la Isthmian league days 2) change the ownership model and find a sugar daddy capable of moving the club up the income table and hence moving reasonable expectation higher. I don't think many supporters would currently welcome either option.
The outbreak of negativity apparently based on one bad defeat and the sale of a young player on his way possible to the premiership is odd. That's life as a lower division football supporter.
Personally I am generally happy with the general direction of the club. I fear what will happen when Ainsworth moves on, but for now its on the right track. Saturday I will be in the stands at home Park (its my home game). I will hope and aspire to see the fifth successive win there. My expectations are not overly high though. They are top of the league and are a bigger club now fulfilling their potential. While I aspire to a win, realistically I would accept a draw and wouldn't be overly surprised if this time we lose, possibly comfortably. I may well have a sore neck by the end of the game. No doubt on Monday I would face a fair degree of mickey taking at work. Its the price of the four successive matches when the boot has been on the other foot. That's football.
Blimey! I'm exhausted and I only skimmed over the odd paragraph. Others may of course be spellbound by the rhetoric but, at the end of the day (as me old Gran used to say) fine words butter no parsnips and the fact remains that we have won 2 home games in 4 months, playing for the most part a style of football that is unattractive and frustrating. I am confident that we will avoid relegation but we are not going to win over new fans as things are.
On the way out on Saturday I genuinely heard the classic "do we really have to come again, Dad?"
If that's a reply to me, given that you replied within 30 seconds, you must skim read and type very quickly.
Bottom line is very simple. If challenging at the top of the league for eighteen months, going to Wembley for the first time in 20 years and running a premier league team close over 180 mins is not enough for you and you don't enjoy going to football any more, don't go to the football. Be a shame, but its your life. If you do choose to go to the football, I'd try to find things to enjoy about it if I were you rather than be miserable.
remember "A man is as miserable as he thinks he is" a quote from a man probably wiser and certainly older than even your gran.
I've been a season ticket holder for over 40 years, rarely miss a home game, have a good life and enjoy a laugh- not necessarily at your expense. I certainly don't need your advice on how to enjoy myself!!
Fine with me. three choices
1) go to the game and try to be as happy as possible
2) go to the game and try to be as miserable as possible
3) don't go to the game
@DevC I suppose if football was played on paper and average expectations were actually a real tangible thing you'd be totally right in everything you say. Trouble is it's not and you consistantly suck the life out of something that should be at best a passion and at worst a major downer on your week. Currently I'm in the later after a month where we haven't won, haven't played that well and have already lost one great player in the transfer window.
Maybe it's because I've seen a decent percentage of recent games live compared to you and maybe it's because I watch football as a passion and not as a statistical average. Either way we'll never agree.
Anyway. Holloway
He probably sums up the difference between our two footballing outlooks. I want someone who maximises his huge potential. Give everything. Cares.
You'd be happy if he matches his FIFA2016 PS4 stats.
I thought you'd run that line in the end. Sure sign you've lost the argument and know it.
If you want to be miserable and it helps to have a little whinge, go ahead and do it. No skin of anybody elses nose. I prefer to be happy. Football should of course only be a relatively small part of any supporters overall life happiness but I find in football as in the rest of life, set your expectations at challenging but achievable levels and that way you can better enjoy the good days (such as WWFC has largely had for the last eighteen months) rather than take them granted and not have too many bad days (which if you expect to win every game and retain all your young potential premier league players will inevitably be numerous).
On Saturday I will watch Plymouth passionately hoping to win and will regardless enjoy the game. If we lose, well I'll go home recognising that this time the odds were stacked against the team and get over it. I will probably reflect that after four successive wins at Home park, the team has recently still given me far more joy than sadness in recent years and still be grateful for that. Oh and I am sure I will still find some incident in the game ( a flash of skill, a great save from the rookie keeper or some humorous incident to make the day worthwhile ). But then I'm a glass half full kind of guy. Can you say the same I wonder?
God only knows what you are talking about re Holloway.
@DevC how do you find yourself at more away games out of interest than the "handful" of home games?
You live in the south west don't you?So surely outside of Exeter, Plymouth, Rovers and Newport, all other aways would be further than Wycombe?
@Ciderk1d said:
Got to say I enjoyed reading DevC, micra and would you believe but RITM too. Really good points and arguments.
I agree - good arguments from different perspectives and good, readable posts.
Tend to agree with Dev's point that in terms of results and where we are as a football club (financially) we are in a pretty good place.
Tend to agree with RitM though that GA has brought some gifted and committed players into the club but our current style of play doesn't really help them and if isn't a pretty watch.
Generally though after leaving the turnstiles after a home loss/abject performance I'm firmly in the 'depressed' camp. By the time I'm halfway through my first post-match pint in the Vere or reached the end of Hillbottom Road I can remember that brief 30 seconds of sublime passing football and movement we summoned up from nowhere and feeling a lot more positive (admittedly I did struggle after Morecombe).
I wonder if it's an age thing? When I was younger and we lost it ruined my whole weekend. As I've got older whilst it still hurts as much the pain wears off quicker
Agree booker...I was disappointed that the wings were not utilsed at the weekend. We have signed Harriman who puts the wind up 'em and Sam Wood when he gets going and yet the ball was continually either passed into the packed midfield or hoofed. I was pleased to see Lynch roll the ball out quickly but the break never materialised as Sido ignored Harriman for a midfield pass. This happened a few times. But, as I've said before, it is League Two, there are two teams on the pitch, and not too many visitors have looked vastly better than us, so I am always hopeful we can pick up the next game.
It might be an age thing. If we get anything out of PLymouth that will be a bonus!
@DevC . If am correct you rarely get to see a game and it shows . If you sit in an armchair looking at the clubs finances or the statistics of finances vs success or league position then I am not surprised you think all is well. If you then look at our last season finishing place and our position and cup run this season as a statistic then you will continue in your happiness . It does go a bit deeper than this I am afraid and for a lot of those who are regular attendees it is a slightly different picture . The quality of the football on show this season has been poor , uninteresting to watch and occasionally embarrassing . We have ground out results with hoof ball and only occasionally seen some entertaining football . I do not accept that lack of finances mean this is the only way to play I have seen several teams this season with similar finances than us trying to play flowing football and we have looked awful in comparison . I agree with Right_in_the_Middle when he says he needs "something to cling to " I think most fans do in fact and I am also one of them . We have now lost three league games on the spin , we never really tested the the Villa keeper except for one shot from Wood and Villa were nervy and woeful for a premiership side .They are on their knees at their level . We did a good job of stifling and huffing and puffing against them but it was nothing in comparison to Exeter who played excellent football against Liverpool. On paper we did well but I was dissapointed we did not have more attractive football to show . We find out a couple of weeks ago we do not have any aspirations to progress this season and we want a mid table finish , we then sell our keeper and then we are treated to one of the most woeful performances of the season last time out . I have also commented else where that I worry about the lack of a dream for my club . I am aware that plenty disagree with me on this but as a fan I need it . I really do not know what the aim of the club is going forward . To my knowledge there has not been the carrot given by the club of a more progressive future somewhere in the horizon and I am getting bored . I will keep going to matches but I tend to look at facebook on my phone a lot more these days when in attendance.
You're not the arse who said this are you?
"Personally speaking I don't spend £300 to watch mid table mediocrity... If that is the ambition of our club I'll save my money for a few years."
@Fidget . I will always support the blues and my golf is saved for the summer months but could you blame me if this carries on and I start early this year ? and no I was not the person who said that .
Malone
Not sure this is terribly relevant or why you care but yes I live in Darkest Devon. You missed Yeovil on your list of vaguely West Country teams, but fundamentally you are right, with the exception of Plymouth and Exeter, everywhere is a fecking long way from here.
Last season I believe I went to four home games ( a handful) and eight aways (Newport, York, Plymouth twice, Exeter, Cheltenham, Burton and Wembley). I t is not completely impossible that the accurate number may be +/- one or two if I have got confused with prior seasons.
I have no particular reason to visit HW these days so my visits there tend to be when I am in London area on a home game day similarly I try to get to a longer away trip or two each season particularly when I can combine with a favourite band in the area (I particularly recommend Ferocious Dog - Nottingham area, Gaz Brookfield - Bristol or Mad dog Mccrea - Plymouth royalty - by the way - they all tour around so keep an eye out).
I do rather mourn the gradual erosion of West Country teams from Lg2 - Cheltenham (possibly temporarily) Torquay (probably permanently) this season possibly Plymouth.
While on this tangential subject, if anyone is interested in live music and is staying over in Plymouth, may I recommend Blackwater County in Kitty Ohanlons - assort of rocky version of the Pogues, but good fun.
I am not sure I can be bothered to go over the same arguments again to Bournes post. Still seems to be confused whether he is whining about perfomances or results. Just to say though, a) not sure who he is referring to that you have seen with similar resources playing "better" football, but whoever it was, I suspect he will find them lower in the table b) if you really don't understand the difference between WWFC playing Aston Villa's first team squad and Exeter playing Liverpool's youth team, then further debate is pointless. Incidentally there forum was full of their supporters calling for their managers head as a result of their defeat at Anfield.
I think there are 2 arguments now in this latter part of the thread.
1) given our limited (we assume) financial resources is our current league position and ambition acceptable given our form last year/the previous year.
2) is our style of play acceptable to supporters given our limited resources
On point 1 (which Dev and anyone else can legitimately comment on) it really is s glass half full/half empty opinion. Personally I'm of the view that if this is where we are in 5 years I'll be more than happy. But we do need the dreams and ambition to sustain us and encourage a new generation of supporters. Where I differ from a couple of the posters above is that a play off final and trip to Villa were just that not that long ago so I'm thankful for that.
On the second point. I do think this is one (sorry Dev) where those who do watch regularly ARE better placed to comment. I personally think we have enough quality players to actually play 'proper' football (and on a few occasions we have) this season. However, GA (manager of the year) chooses to play a style that focuses on stopping other teams playing first. As a spectator it is a little depressing - especially when it doesn't work. As a supporter I can understand and - just about - live with it (shame though).
I actually think when we get Bean back and fit that will help or style improve as I think he does the defensive midfield duties better than anyone else which I hope will help O'nein regain his earlier form and get upfield more and be more creative.
And having read this just before pressing 'post' I do realise i am a pompous, pretentious twat. Sorry
No need to apologise for your view re others being in a better position to comment on style than I, I agree wholeheartedly with you. I don't think I have commented on this element. I agree with most , nearly all you say in fact.
Comments
Still not quite clear whether the primary gripe is about results or style.
If it is results, here are a few statistics.
Last season the teams finishing 10th to 14th had a combined record of
home W 45 (39%) D 28 (24%) L 42 (37%)
away W 39 (34%) D 28 (24%) L 48 (42%)
This season WWFC record is
home W5 (36%) D4 (28%) L5 (36%)
away W6 (50%) D3 (25%) L3 (25%)
If you regard mid table as a strong effort this season given financial constraints, that would suggest that home form is pretty much as expected and away form well ahead of expectations. Of course if you were expecting automatic promotion or a championship with record points score, then the club is woefully underachieving.
Within a season, results will not come evenly, so you will get little runs of home wins or away defeats.
Style is a different question. Difficult to prove, but my impression is that broadly to get both attractive style and results, you need above average resources. If you have below average resources, you tend to get a choice of , at best, one or the other.
@DevC has well and truely bought in to the club PR machine and the scarce resources argument. Thinking about it that's probably far easier to do when you don't have the visual evidence of home performances over recent months. Personally I'm more negative about our future prosects than I have been for a while. It must have something to do with January results but I'm also pretty down about us cashing in on our resources. I know it will happen but the bird in the hand principle always sounds more positive. Once they are gone they are gone (unless you're Paris Cowan Hall I suppose)
I don't intend to just use sheer weight of words to move the debate on so one last thought.
What on earth has all this got to do with Holloway?
just a slight drift off subject, on another note has he gone yet !!!!!
I do buy in to the argument, Righty.
I am not sure what you are saying here
1) Do you accept as likely the much reported (but not guaranteed) suggestion that our playing budget is one of the six lowest in the league.
2) Do you accept that there is a strong correlation between playing budget and results and that this should therefore be a major factor in setting reasonable expectation of results. (obviously you strive to do better than expectations, so don't run the "its not all about money, its sport line, I know that. Also note the difference between expectations and targets which you would always set higher.)
If you answer yes to both questions, then the club is overachieving again against reasonable expectations in results terms at least. Style is a whole different argument as is whether WWFC can ever expect to retain promising young talent.
I got that impression @DevC . You make the same argument so often it's now ingrained. It just doesn't seem to stop you posting it time and time again.
To answer your questions though, I do broadly agree with both your statements. I have no reason to question point one if the club say that is the case and it does seem that the bigger spenders in each league are more often that not the most succesful. There are notable exceptions to that where big wages and large squads underperform but to put it in language you'll follow more than 50% of the time you are spot on.
Then we get on to the more intangible discussion on what is the expected achievement. In my opinion we did over achieve in results terms for long periods last season but fell away towards the end due to lack of squad depth and a playing style that was not helping long term player fitness. This season we have been mainly below that mark with some exceptions such as the Oxford home game and the second half performance against Villa.
What is the expectation though? I don't like the club line of being poor minnows but my views on that are posted elsewhere.
If we are recruiting players like Bean, Jacobson, Thomson and Hayes then we must have aspirations of success on the pitch. We are under achieving based on the ability of those players.
If we are building a squad of youngster we improve and sell on we are having some success but the well is drying up.
If we are helping other clubs youngster grow as players and as men we are massively successful.
If we are purely treading water as a club, rebuilding the finances and waiting for a debt free club I fear that will never happen.
As a fan I need something to cling on to. For as long as I and probably my Dad and late Grandad could remember Wycombe were a club pushing for trophies, league titles and promotions. In more recent times we've succeeded so much we have had bad seasons where relegation battles have given the focus. Very rarely has as season been a middle of the table effort.
What the club is selling in its communication is just that though. 61 points is the target. We won't stand in the way of our young talent. We are a great place for loan players.
There is getting less and less of our own to support and cling on to. I was proud of being a Wycombe fan at Villa. I suppose that type of night is something to cling on to but I worry that every time it happens our star players are out the door inside a fortnight.
nobody is leaving this club on the strength of the two Villa games ... if you think that your a joke ..... Ingram has been the radar of BIGGER clubs for along time and Pierre is somebody teams would maybe take a punt on as is O Nien but I doubt he will move and will sign here again.
Hi @richmayes999
Just to maybe save you some time in the future I really couldn't care less what you think about my posted views so you don't need to tell me.
Hope this helps
Right in the Middle
You wouldn't have responded to Rich if you didn't care.
Loads of words Righty, but seems to be pretty muddled thinking.
For me its quite clear. We have low income in comparison to most of our rivals and as you seem to agree, that means our expectation should be mid table at best. Our target should be to challenge for promotion and have good cup runs, and we should enjoy them when they come, but deep down we should recognise that they will be a bonus and not something we should expect to see every year.
As it happens the club has had a fantastic eighteen months, spending long periods at the top of the league, reaching Wembley for the first time in 20+ years and only a fortnight or so ago avoiding defeat at home against a top flight club for I think only the third time in our history (?). That is way better than we have any right to expect. If that isn't enough to keep you motivated, sadly I think you are doomed to a lifetime of disappointment. To describe that as "treading water" is with the greatest respect ridiculous.
If you really want to be perpetually at the top of the league, realistically the club has two choices, 1) drop down the leagues until it becomes a big fish in a small pond a la Isthmian league days 2) change the ownership model and find a sugar daddy capable of moving the club up the income table and hence moving reasonable expectation higher. I don't think many supporters would currently welcome either option.
The outbreak of negativity apparently based on one bad defeat and the sale of a young player on his way possible to the premiership is odd. That's life as a lower division football supporter.
Personally I am generally happy with the general direction of the club. I fear what will happen when Ainsworth moves on, but for now its on the right track. Saturday I will be in the stands at home Park (its my home game). I will hope and aspire to see the fifth successive win there. My expectations are not overly high though. They are top of the league and are a bigger club now fulfilling their potential. While I aspire to a win, realistically I would accept a draw and wouldn't be overly surprised if this time we lose, possibly comfortably. I may well have a sore neck by the end of the game. No doubt on Monday I would face a fair degree of mickey taking at work. Its the price of the four successive matches when the boot has been on the other foot. That's football.
Blimey! I'm exhausted and I only skimmed over the odd paragraph. Others may of course be spellbound by the rhetoric but, at the end of the day (as me old Gran used to say) fine words butter no parsnips and the fact remains that we have won 2 home games in 4 months, playing for the most part a style of football that is unattractive and frustrating. I am confident that we will avoid relegation but we are not going to win over new fans as things are.
On the way out on Saturday I genuinely heard the classic "do we really have to come again, Dad?"
If that's a reply to me, given that you replied within 30 seconds, you must skim read and type very quickly.
Bottom line is very simple. If challenging at the top of the league for eighteen months, going to Wembley for the first time in 20 years and running a premier league team close over 180 mins is not enough for you and you don't enjoy going to football any more, don't go to the football. Be a shame, but its your life. If you do choose to go to the football, I'd try to find things to enjoy about it if I were you rather than be miserable.
remember "A man is as miserable as he thinks he is" a quote from a man probably wiser and certainly older than even your gran.
I've been a season ticket holder for over 40 years, rarely miss a home game, have a good life and enjoy a laugh- not necessarily at your expense. I certainly don't need your advice on how to enjoy myself!!
Fine with me. three choices
1) go to the game and try to be as happy as possible
2) go to the game and try to be as miserable as possible
3) don't go to the game
Which of those you choose is your business.
@DevC really doesn't get it, does he.
Quite apart from the train episode I feel queasy when he says "we" and "our" in reference to Wycombe Wanderers.
@DevC I suppose if football was played on paper and average expectations were actually a real tangible thing you'd be totally right in everything you say. Trouble is it's not and you consistantly suck the life out of something that should be at best a passion and at worst a major downer on your week. Currently I'm in the later after a month where we haven't won, haven't played that well and have already lost one great player in the transfer window.
Maybe it's because I've seen a decent percentage of recent games live compared to you and maybe it's because I watch football as a passion and not as a statistical average. Either way we'll never agree.
Anyway. Holloway
He probably sums up the difference between our two footballing outlooks. I want someone who maximises his huge potential. Give everything. Cares.
You'd be happy if he matches his FIFA2016 PS4 stats.
I thought you'd run that line in the end. Sure sign you've lost the argument and know it.
If you want to be miserable and it helps to have a little whinge, go ahead and do it. No skin of anybody elses nose. I prefer to be happy. Football should of course only be a relatively small part of any supporters overall life happiness but I find in football as in the rest of life, set your expectations at challenging but achievable levels and that way you can better enjoy the good days (such as WWFC has largely had for the last eighteen months) rather than take them granted and not have too many bad days (which if you expect to win every game and retain all your young potential premier league players will inevitably be numerous).
On Saturday I will watch Plymouth passionately hoping to win and will regardless enjoy the game. If we lose, well I'll go home recognising that this time the odds were stacked against the team and get over it. I will probably reflect that after four successive wins at Home park, the team has recently still given me far more joy than sadness in recent years and still be grateful for that. Oh and I am sure I will still find some incident in the game ( a flash of skill, a great save from the rookie keeper or some humorous incident to make the day worthwhile ). But then I'm a glass half full kind of guy. Can you say the same I wonder?
God only knows what you are talking about re Holloway.
Got to say I enjoyed reading @DevC, @micra and would you believe but @RITM too. Really good points and arguments.
@DevC how do you find yourself at more away games out of interest than the "handful" of home games?
You live in the south west don't you?So surely outside of Exeter, Plymouth, Rovers and Newport, all other aways would be further than Wycombe?
Unless a handful is 1 or 2in your book?
I agree - good arguments from different perspectives and good, readable posts.
Tend to agree with Dev's point that in terms of results and where we are as a football club (financially) we are in a pretty good place.
Tend to agree with RitM though that GA has brought some gifted and committed players into the club but our current style of play doesn't really help them and if isn't a pretty watch.
Generally though after leaving the turnstiles after a home loss/abject performance I'm firmly in the 'depressed' camp. By the time I'm halfway through my first post-match pint in the Vere or reached the end of Hillbottom Road I can remember that brief 30 seconds of sublime passing football and movement we summoned up from nowhere and feeling a lot more positive (admittedly I did struggle after Morecombe).
I wonder if it's an age thing? When I was younger and we lost it ruined my whole weekend. As I've got older whilst it still hurts as much the pain wears off quicker
Agree booker...I was disappointed that the wings were not utilsed at the weekend. We have signed Harriman who puts the wind up 'em and Sam Wood when he gets going and yet the ball was continually either passed into the packed midfield or hoofed. I was pleased to see Lynch roll the ball out quickly but the break never materialised as Sido ignored Harriman for a midfield pass. This happened a few times. But, as I've said before, it is League Two, there are two teams on the pitch, and not too many visitors have looked vastly better than us, so I am always hopeful we can pick up the next game.
It might be an age thing. If we get anything out of PLymouth that will be a bonus!
A bit confused - the thread is entitled Holloway yet very few references to him recently.
@DevC . If am correct you rarely get to see a game and it shows . If you sit in an armchair looking at the clubs finances or the statistics of finances vs success or league position then I am not surprised you think all is well. If you then look at our last season finishing place and our position and cup run this season as a statistic then you will continue in your happiness . It does go a bit deeper than this I am afraid and for a lot of those who are regular attendees it is a slightly different picture . The quality of the football on show this season has been poor , uninteresting to watch and occasionally embarrassing . We have ground out results with hoof ball and only occasionally seen some entertaining football . I do not accept that lack of finances mean this is the only way to play I have seen several teams this season with similar finances than us trying to play flowing football and we have looked awful in comparison . I agree with Right_in_the_Middle when he says he needs "something to cling to " I think most fans do in fact and I am also one of them . We have now lost three league games on the spin , we never really tested the the Villa keeper except for one shot from Wood and Villa were nervy and woeful for a premiership side .They are on their knees at their level . We did a good job of stifling and huffing and puffing against them but it was nothing in comparison to Exeter who played excellent football against Liverpool. On paper we did well but I was dissapointed we did not have more attractive football to show . We find out a couple of weeks ago we do not have any aspirations to progress this season and we want a mid table finish , we then sell our keeper and then we are treated to one of the most woeful performances of the season last time out . I have also commented else where that I worry about the lack of a dream for my club . I am aware that plenty disagree with me on this but as a fan I need it . I really do not know what the aim of the club is going forward . To my knowledge there has not been the carrot given by the club of a more progressive future somewhere in the horizon and I am getting bored . I will keep going to matches but I tend to look at facebook on my phone a lot more these days when in attendance.
There's always the golf course if you fancy it @bourne70 . Was it this rather depressing Facebook thread that you commented on 'elsewhere'?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2216399463/permalink/10153884993119464/
You're not the arse who said this are you?
"Personally speaking I don't spend £300 to watch mid table mediocrity... If that is the ambition of our club I'll save my money for a few years."
we want a mid table finish is simply not true.
@Fidget . I will always support the blues and my golf is saved for the summer months but could you blame me if this carries on and I start early this year ? and no I was not the person who said that .
the football at home has been very poor in the main, until this stops people will not come and bring friends because its embarrassing.
Malone
Not sure this is terribly relevant or why you care but yes I live in Darkest Devon. You missed Yeovil on your list of vaguely West Country teams, but fundamentally you are right, with the exception of Plymouth and Exeter, everywhere is a fecking long way from here.
Last season I believe I went to four home games ( a handful) and eight aways (Newport, York, Plymouth twice, Exeter, Cheltenham, Burton and Wembley). I t is not completely impossible that the accurate number may be +/- one or two if I have got confused with prior seasons.
I have no particular reason to visit HW these days so my visits there tend to be when I am in London area on a home game day similarly I try to get to a longer away trip or two each season particularly when I can combine with a favourite band in the area (I particularly recommend Ferocious Dog - Nottingham area, Gaz Brookfield - Bristol or Mad dog Mccrea - Plymouth royalty - by the way - they all tour around so keep an eye out).
I do rather mourn the gradual erosion of West Country teams from Lg2 - Cheltenham (possibly temporarily) Torquay (probably permanently) this season possibly Plymouth.
While on this tangential subject, if anyone is interested in live music and is staying over in Plymouth, may I recommend Blackwater County in Kitty Ohanlons - assort of rocky version of the Pogues, but good fun.
I am not sure I can be bothered to go over the same arguments again to Bournes post. Still seems to be confused whether he is whining about perfomances or results. Just to say though, a) not sure who he is referring to that you have seen with similar resources playing "better" football, but whoever it was, I suspect he will find them lower in the table b) if you really don't understand the difference between WWFC playing Aston Villa's first team squad and Exeter playing Liverpool's youth team, then further debate is pointless. Incidentally there forum was full of their supporters calling for their managers head as a result of their defeat at Anfield.
I think there are 2 arguments now in this latter part of the thread.
1) given our limited (we assume) financial resources is our current league position and ambition acceptable given our form last year/the previous year.
2) is our style of play acceptable to supporters given our limited resources
On point 1 (which Dev and anyone else can legitimately comment on) it really is s glass half full/half empty opinion. Personally I'm of the view that if this is where we are in 5 years I'll be more than happy. But we do need the dreams and ambition to sustain us and encourage a new generation of supporters. Where I differ from a couple of the posters above is that a play off final and trip to Villa were just that not that long ago so I'm thankful for that.
On the second point. I do think this is one (sorry Dev) where those who do watch regularly ARE better placed to comment. I personally think we have enough quality players to actually play 'proper' football (and on a few occasions we have) this season. However, GA (manager of the year) chooses to play a style that focuses on stopping other teams playing first. As a spectator it is a little depressing - especially when it doesn't work. As a supporter I can understand and - just about - live with it (shame though).
I actually think when we get Bean back and fit that will help or style improve as I think he does the defensive midfield duties better than anyone else which I hope will help O'nein regain his earlier form and get upfield more and be more creative.
And having read this just before pressing 'post' I do realise i am a pompous, pretentious twat. Sorry
No need to apologise, it's an interesting contribution to an interesting thread.
No need to apologise for your view re others being in a better position to comment on style than I, I agree wholeheartedly with you. I don't think I have commented on this element. I agree with most , nearly all you say in fact.