We need about four more wins to avoid bottom six. So that would be fairly catastrophic. I think we could lose Pierre, Jacobson and Hayes and still manage that.
In response to blue and Micra, I only get to a handful of home games a season - 400 mile round plus for me. I find myself at more away games.
But I think you are confusing performance and results. Perhaps I have misunderstood your gripe. Results are ahead of reasonable expectations. The managers primary job is to mould the resources he has to get the best results he can. He does an outstanding job of that.
Unfortunately the reality of lower level football is that the best way for teams to outperform their resource level is to an extent hoofball and pressing. If you look at the table this season, the three teams arguably outperforming , Accy, Morecambe and us, all play this way. it aint pretty but its effective. Apart from those teams, the top six are all part of the eight clubs that most people would regard as the "biggest"clubs in the league.
I have to be honest from the games I have been to, I rather agree with you on spectacle. There have been games we have won that I cant say I have enjoyed much. Problem here is that the team is more functional than lovable this season. The players that perhaps would have been expected to provide the unpredictable spark (the Holloways and Mcginns) have been disappointing. the team has lacked the fun of a Fred on his day for example from last year.
Be careful what you wish for though. One day GA will be gone. Maybe the new manager will try to play prettier football. The challenge will be to avoid being sucked into a battle for survival again.
I think the thing I find interesting is that I think GA would claim we are a "footballing " side and like to get it on the ground and play . He has said this many times over the last two years . He admits "mixing it" with the hoof ball sides when we have to but has said we are a team that likes to play football . I know it appears obvious to some that the team is instructed to play hoof ball by the manager and maybe it is , I do not know . What I can say is there have been games where we have hoofed the ball until half time and the manager has been happy that he has been able to "address this" at half time and "play it on the ground" in the second half . I have to say , I am not entirely sure he desires us to play like this and that it is a deliberate thing .
I don't think we play hoofball, we try to get the ball forward quickly and play in the final 3rd but some of the passing is chronic to say the least. every team we play pass the ball better than we do, so thats a serious problem.
Dev, you often present your opinion as a statement of fact. It's quite annoying. In this case you said yesterday that 10th would be "above reasonable expectations at the beginning of the season". That is your opinion. It's not mine. Today, referring back to that post, you say "results are ahead of reasonable expectations". Almost like your opinion yesterday had solidified into incontrovertible fact overnight.
In my opinion, finishing 10th this season would be very disappointing given the fact we had a record points haul last season, led the table for months, and failed to get promoted because of a last-minute equaliser at Wembley. In my opinion, it would be eminently reasonable to expect a promotion push again this season.
The fact we're playing worse football, against opponents who are generally better at setting up their team up to counter us, with worse personnel in key positions, is disappointing. That's not to say this season is guaranteed to be a write-off. It just means that at this key point in the season I would like to see Ainsworth make a few adjustments to the style of play and bring in a couple of extra players to give us an exciting close to the season.
He did it last year after investing some of the proceeds of the PCH and Scowen sales in bringing in Saunders and Yennaris. I appreciate the need to pay down debt but there's also an argument for investing a portion of the cup run and Ingram sales in quality players to make us play better and go on another promotion push - both of which will get more bums on seats.
A little strange that you accuse someone else of presenting opinion as a statement of fact, then go on to say
The fact we're playing worse football, against opponents who are generally better at setting up their team up to counter us, with worse personnel in key positions
That's an opinion if anything is, and one not backed up by the league table. We've won more games than we've lost, we're sitting just outside the playoff places, and have matched a premier league team for a game and a half.
So we've lost three in a row in the league, sometimes that happens. Ainsworth knows what he's doing and his tactics have been more effective than not. He over-achieved in bringing in Saunders last year, one of the most talented people I've seen play in a Wycombe shirt. Hopefully he can pull something similar off again, but even if he doesn't we are extremely unlikely to be near the bottom six come the end of the season, and suggesting so is hyperbolic. Things aren't always about ecstasy and agony - sometimes there is a middle ground. And overall this season has been a positive one so far.
You're right to pick me up on my hypocrisy but my view is certainly backed up by the league table. This time last year - played 26, first place, 51 pts, goal difference of +19. This year played 26, tenth place, 40 pts, goal difference of +5.
If your view is that we aren't doing as well as last year, then I agree. If you think we should be doing as well as last year, and that in not doing so we are failing, then I disagree.
Oh hang on a minute, I think I've misinterpreted what you're saying - the worse football thing is in comparison to last year, but I thought you were comparing us to our opponents. I can see where you are coming from now.
But I still disagree that being worse than last year is a failure - when we had such outstanding season with great success in the loan market.
@aloysius I agree with you . It would be counter productive to use all the money to pay off the debt . There has to be a balance and there is a need to sustain performances on the pitch to maintain peoples interest . I think the comments in the last week or so that our "aim this season is not promotion " although probably designed yet again to taper expectations , will have been seen as very negative by some . There are many on here who have happily bought into the "small club" "no money" and now "going nowhere soon " language . I think the language from the club over plays this reality as a tactic . Yes we are in debt but this is not unusual for any football club in this day. If we used every penny to pay off this debt the crowds would drop and this in turn would put us at risk . Yes we need to pay debt but we need to still have the dream of success and if we want our town to turn out and support us I personally think a few things need to change .
Anything any of us post on a discussion forum will be mostly opinion. Surely that is self evident.
I remain a little unclear whether the negativistas are complaining about results or performance. I think Alyosius is mainly complaining about results.
If we are talking about results compared to expectations, it comes down to your judgement of what are reasonable expectations. Everybody would surely agree that we massively overperformed last year. The argument seems to be then whether in massively overperforming last year, that resets the bar such that we should then expect the same outcome every year or whether expectations for each season should be set bearing in mind all factors- of which sadly as much as we all regret it the biggest factor affecting long term performance is money.
Personally I go for the latter approach. If our budget is in the bottom six, then if we achieve midtable outcome that is better than we should expect. As I understand it you base your expectation solely on where we finished the previous season ignoring budget factors. If I have understood you right, I think your basis is misguided.
to illustrate that lets look to the premier league.
Man United have one of if not the biggest budgets in the league. Last season they finished seventh. With your argument, presumably you would therefore expect them to finish seventh this season too and therefore regard their current fifth place as a spectacular success.
Leicester have a below average budget. Despite that, wonderfully, they may well finish in the top three. Does that mean you would expect them to finish in the top three next season and regard say sixth as a failure?
None of us know the finances. The speculate to accumulate argument is fine, but of course there is no guarantee that spending more money on a couple fo players this season will work and hence increase gates. Plainly any sensible business or individual will only speculate with money you can afford to lose.
I would expect the club to use cash prudently, it really in todays environment has no choice. Without knowing the terms of the Ingram transfer (cash up front or on the drip) and the state of the finances (it may be that gates and therefore income were below budget and this cash is needed to balance the day to day expenditure) , it is impossible to judge whether there is any cash left to spend on improving the team.
No doubt like all managers, Ainsworth would love to have a little more cash to spend. Howards job is to only give it to him if the cash is around. it would not be sensible to sped the cash now, if it was needed to balance this years books or indeed if projections showed it was needed to balance next years books.
@Chris .How old are you ? the reason I ask is your comment seems very immature . It would make sense to me if you very young as it would give reasoning behind your recent abuse of power on this forum.
@DevC . I would be surprised if Leicester could have achieved what they have done this season with realist or negative rhetoric coming form the club . There success to me just goes to prove it actually does not need to be all about budget. Examples of this can be extended to Burton Albion or even Watford . My guess is if these clubs continuously told their players and fans that the are over achieving they would have struggled to get to where they are . They would certainly not have progressed by setting a low bar and even coming out to say the do not intend to get promoted .
Yet bourne, we achieved precisely that over-achievement last season despite "realist" rhetoric in the press. Don't worry players are not necessarily spun the same line as the official press line. it can be done in odd seasons from time to time. it is rarely sustainable year after year (Yeovil being perhaps the most recent example).
My understanding was not that we do not intend to get promoted or that we would actively avoid it if that is your suggestion, simply that we were not expecting to achieve it and failure to be promoted would not be regarded as a failed season.
@DevC I appreciate what you say but my fear is that it will become a self fulfilling prophecy. I appreciate the need for it last season and in the short term but we need bigger crowds and continuously been told we are small and over achieving and lowering our expectations does not serve to increase the likely hood of this happening in my opinion . I am sure many will see the taming down of expectations for what it is designed for but I doubt the floating supporter does . Also it is important to keep the core support motivated . The style of football has been dreadful at times and my other point is that getting a Sam Saunders to address this may cost money but in the bigger picture it could prove very profitable . Human beings have always needed hope and a dream in success in things to stay interested and if all you hear is stark reality and don't give people a dream people drift away .
Well its all opinions of course, but I think its easy to place too much weight on managers comments in the newspaper. I would agree that in the immediate aftermath of the trust takeover the club were guilty of preaching to the converted few and forgetting the ambitions and interests of the less committed floaters, but I don't really see that know. I think an urban myth is in danger of fast developing.
Sam Saunders are hard to find and expensive. If we have spare cash, it might make sense to speculate with it. If we don't have spare cash it is very dangerous indeed to gamble on the "build it and they will come" approach if disaster lurks if actually they don't come at all.
Every supporter would love to see better players at WWFC, I am sure the manager does to, I am pretty sure that the chairman would agree. Sadly though we do need a sensible business head to override our desires as supporters with hard business logic to only spend what we can afford.
@bourne70 said:. Human beings have always needed hope and a dream in success in things to stay interested and if all you hear is stark reality and don't give people a dream people drift away .
Whilst I can understand your argument I actually think our* hopes and dreams have been pretty well satisfied by our over-achieving, under-funded little club over the past 18 months. A Wembley play-off final, a hard-fought FA Cup replay at a top** Premier club, top of the league a couple of months ago. The 'fact' we've done that on a shoestring, to me - and the wider non-Wycombe football fans I associate with - makes it even more special.
If I follow your argument, presumably we should say we've got a decent squad with a real chance of promotion. Hope that reels a few casuals in, then when they come and watch and wonder why we play such rubbish football given we're apparently a top team. They get frustrated, boo, which lowers the confidence of the players who play even worse. (As an aside isn't that what's happening at Man U).
For 'our' read 'mine'
** in the loosest possible way this season admittedly
@DevC and @bourne70 can debate finances, the psychology of playing down expectations, performance versus results etc until they are blue in the face. The plain fact is that home form is appalling - two wins since 29 September- and hoofball has been rife. I've brought friends to matches and, frankly, there have been times when I have been embarrassed. It seems to me a nonsense to suggest that we HAVE to play hoofball "because it's League 2". There have been a few home games when we have kept it on the deck for short periods and it has been a joy to behold. Wouldn't it be great to see it most of the time.
@aloysius In my opinion, if everyone had to preface every post on this site by saying 'in my opinion', the site would be very cumbersome to read. In my opinion, it would be better if people did not write 'in my opinion' before every opinion.
@micra; I'm in the same camp, brought friends and family to a game, was embarrassed with the direct and non passing during the match plus it was frigging freezing too.
We can play attractive football in stints, don't mind our usual stuff but for the majority of the game is tough one to watch. So let's shake it up with creativity in midfield and enterprising on them wings.
Comments
@ChasHarps Now now. Let's leave that in the other thread please.
We need about four more wins to avoid bottom six. So that would be fairly catastrophic. I think we could lose Pierre, Jacobson and Hayes and still manage that.
only Wycombe fans would start talking about bottom 6 with us sat just outside the playoffs in late Jan!
In response to blue and Micra, I only get to a handful of home games a season - 400 mile round plus for me. I find myself at more away games.
But I think you are confusing performance and results. Perhaps I have misunderstood your gripe. Results are ahead of reasonable expectations. The managers primary job is to mould the resources he has to get the best results he can. He does an outstanding job of that.
Unfortunately the reality of lower level football is that the best way for teams to outperform their resource level is to an extent hoofball and pressing. If you look at the table this season, the three teams arguably outperforming , Accy, Morecambe and us, all play this way. it aint pretty but its effective. Apart from those teams, the top six are all part of the eight clubs that most people would regard as the "biggest"clubs in the league.
I have to be honest from the games I have been to, I rather agree with you on spectacle. There have been games we have won that I cant say I have enjoyed much. Problem here is that the team is more functional than lovable this season. The players that perhaps would have been expected to provide the unpredictable spark (the Holloways and Mcginns) have been disappointing. the team has lacked the fun of a Fred on his day for example from last year.
Be careful what you wish for though. One day GA will be gone. Maybe the new manager will try to play prettier football. The challenge will be to avoid being sucked into a battle for survival again.
I think the thing I find interesting is that I think GA would claim we are a "footballing " side and like to get it on the ground and play . He has said this many times over the last two years . He admits "mixing it" with the hoof ball sides when we have to but has said we are a team that likes to play football . I know it appears obvious to some that the team is instructed to play hoof ball by the manager and maybe it is , I do not know . What I can say is there have been games where we have hoofed the ball until half time and the manager has been happy that he has been able to "address this" at half time and "play it on the ground" in the second half . I have to say , I am not entirely sure he desires us to play like this and that it is a deliberate thing .
I don't think we play hoofball, we try to get the ball forward quickly and play in the final 3rd but some of the passing is chronic to say the least. every team we play pass the ball better than we do, so thats a serious problem.
Dev, you often present your opinion as a statement of fact. It's quite annoying. In this case you said yesterday that 10th would be "above reasonable expectations at the beginning of the season". That is your opinion. It's not mine. Today, referring back to that post, you say "results are ahead of reasonable expectations". Almost like your opinion yesterday had solidified into incontrovertible fact overnight.
In my opinion, finishing 10th this season would be very disappointing given the fact we had a record points haul last season, led the table for months, and failed to get promoted because of a last-minute equaliser at Wembley. In my opinion, it would be eminently reasonable to expect a promotion push again this season.
The fact we're playing worse football, against opponents who are generally better at setting up their team up to counter us, with worse personnel in key positions, is disappointing. That's not to say this season is guaranteed to be a write-off. It just means that at this key point in the season I would like to see Ainsworth make a few adjustments to the style of play and bring in a couple of extra players to give us an exciting close to the season.
He did it last year after investing some of the proceeds of the PCH and Scowen sales in bringing in Saunders and Yennaris. I appreciate the need to pay down debt but there's also an argument for investing a portion of the cup run and Ingram sales in quality players to make us play better and go on another promotion push - both of which will get more bums on seats.
A little strange that you accuse someone else of presenting opinion as a statement of fact, then go on to say
The fact we're playing worse football, against opponents who are generally better at setting up their team up to counter us, with worse personnel in key positions
That's an opinion if anything is, and one not backed up by the league table. We've won more games than we've lost, we're sitting just outside the playoff places, and have matched a premier league team for a game and a half.
So we've lost three in a row in the league, sometimes that happens. Ainsworth knows what he's doing and his tactics have been more effective than not. He over-achieved in bringing in Saunders last year, one of the most talented people I've seen play in a Wycombe shirt. Hopefully he can pull something similar off again, but even if he doesn't we are extremely unlikely to be near the bottom six come the end of the season, and suggesting so is hyperbolic. Things aren't always about ecstasy and agony - sometimes there is a middle ground. And overall this season has been a positive one so far.
You're right to pick me up on my hypocrisy but my view is certainly backed up by the league table. This time last year - played 26, first place, 51 pts, goal difference of +19. This year played 26, tenth place, 40 pts, goal difference of +5.
If your view is that we aren't doing as well as last year, then I agree. If you think we should be doing as well as last year, and that in not doing so we are failing, then I disagree.
Oh hang on a minute, I think I've misinterpreted what you're saying - the worse football thing is in comparison to last year, but I thought you were comparing us to our opponents. I can see where you are coming from now.
But I still disagree that being worse than last year is a failure - when we had such outstanding season with great success in the loan market.
@aloysius I agree with you . It would be counter productive to use all the money to pay off the debt . There has to be a balance and there is a need to sustain performances on the pitch to maintain peoples interest . I think the comments in the last week or so that our "aim this season is not promotion " although probably designed yet again to taper expectations , will have been seen as very negative by some . There are many on here who have happily bought into the "small club" "no money" and now "going nowhere soon " language . I think the language from the club over plays this reality as a tactic . Yes we are in debt but this is not unusual for any football club in this day. If we used every penny to pay off this debt the crowds would drop and this in turn would put us at risk . Yes we need to pay debt but we need to still have the dream of success and if we want our town to turn out and support us I personally think a few things need to change .
the rhetoric needs to change I meant to say
Anything any of us post on a discussion forum will be mostly opinion. Surely that is self evident.
I remain a little unclear whether the negativistas are complaining about results or performance. I think Alyosius is mainly complaining about results.
If we are talking about results compared to expectations, it comes down to your judgement of what are reasonable expectations. Everybody would surely agree that we massively overperformed last year. The argument seems to be then whether in massively overperforming last year, that resets the bar such that we should then expect the same outcome every year or whether expectations for each season should be set bearing in mind all factors- of which sadly as much as we all regret it the biggest factor affecting long term performance is money.
Personally I go for the latter approach. If our budget is in the bottom six, then if we achieve midtable outcome that is better than we should expect. As I understand it you base your expectation solely on where we finished the previous season ignoring budget factors. If I have understood you right, I think your basis is misguided.
to illustrate that lets look to the premier league.
Man United have one of if not the biggest budgets in the league. Last season they finished seventh. With your argument, presumably you would therefore expect them to finish seventh this season too and therefore regard their current fifth place as a spectacular success.
Leicester have a below average budget. Despite that, wonderfully, they may well finish in the top three. Does that mean you would expect them to finish in the top three next season and regard say sixth as a failure?
Especially with all the alternative entertainment available, like golf.
Just a quick word on the spend the cash argument.
None of us know the finances. The speculate to accumulate argument is fine, but of course there is no guarantee that spending more money on a couple fo players this season will work and hence increase gates. Plainly any sensible business or individual will only speculate with money you can afford to lose.
I would expect the club to use cash prudently, it really in todays environment has no choice. Without knowing the terms of the Ingram transfer (cash up front or on the drip) and the state of the finances (it may be that gates and therefore income were below budget and this cash is needed to balance the day to day expenditure) , it is impossible to judge whether there is any cash left to spend on improving the team.
No doubt like all managers, Ainsworth would love to have a little more cash to spend. Howards job is to only give it to him if the cash is around. it would not be sensible to sped the cash now, if it was needed to balance this years books or indeed if projections showed it was needed to balance next years books.
@Chris .How old are you ? the reason I ask is your comment seems very immature . It would make sense to me if you very young as it would give reasoning behind your recent abuse of power on this forum.
@DevC . I would be surprised if Leicester could have achieved what they have done this season with realist or negative rhetoric coming form the club . There success to me just goes to prove it actually does not need to be all about budget. Examples of this can be extended to Burton Albion or even Watford . My guess is if these clubs continuously told their players and fans that the are over achieving they would have struggled to get to where they are . They would certainly not have progressed by setting a low bar and even coming out to say the do not intend to get promoted .
@bourne70 Ha ok I'll give you that one, it was an immature dig. But where would we be without those?
This myth of abuse of power - please give me an example?
Yet bourne, we achieved precisely that over-achievement last season despite "realist" rhetoric in the press. Don't worry players are not necessarily spun the same line as the official press line. it can be done in odd seasons from time to time. it is rarely sustainable year after year (Yeovil being perhaps the most recent example).
My understanding was not that we do not intend to get promoted or that we would actively avoid it if that is your suggestion, simply that we were not expecting to achieve it and failure to be promoted would not be regarded as a failed season.
@DevC I appreciate what you say but my fear is that it will become a self fulfilling prophecy. I appreciate the need for it last season and in the short term but we need bigger crowds and continuously been told we are small and over achieving and lowering our expectations does not serve to increase the likely hood of this happening in my opinion . I am sure many will see the taming down of expectations for what it is designed for but I doubt the floating supporter does . Also it is important to keep the core support motivated . The style of football has been dreadful at times and my other point is that getting a Sam Saunders to address this may cost money but in the bigger picture it could prove very profitable . Human beings have always needed hope and a dream in success in things to stay interested and if all you hear is stark reality and don't give people a dream people drift away .
Well its all opinions of course, but I think its easy to place too much weight on managers comments in the newspaper. I would agree that in the immediate aftermath of the trust takeover the club were guilty of preaching to the converted few and forgetting the ambitions and interests of the less committed floaters, but I don't really see that know. I think an urban myth is in danger of fast developing.
Sam Saunders are hard to find and expensive. If we have spare cash, it might make sense to speculate with it. If we don't have spare cash it is very dangerous indeed to gamble on the "build it and they will come" approach if disaster lurks if actually they don't come at all.
Every supporter would love to see better players at WWFC, I am sure the manager does to, I am pretty sure that the chairman would agree. Sadly though we do need a sensible business head to override our desires as supporters with hard business logic to only spend what we can afford.
now not "know". Ugh
unfortunately for us Sam finds himself in the Brentford side and boy does he deserve it after what he has been through with injuries and such.
Can't wait for his reply to this. Paranoia writ large!
Whilst I can understand your argument I actually think our* hopes and dreams have been pretty well satisfied by our over-achieving, under-funded little club over the past 18 months. A Wembley play-off final, a hard-fought FA Cup replay at a top** Premier club, top of the league a couple of months ago. The 'fact' we've done that on a shoestring, to me - and the wider non-Wycombe football fans I associate with - makes it even more special.
If I follow your argument, presumably we should say we've got a decent squad with a real chance of promotion. Hope that reels a few casuals in, then when they come and watch and wonder why we play such rubbish football given we're apparently a top team. They get frustrated, boo, which lowers the confidence of the players who play even worse. (As an aside isn't that what's happening at Man U).
** in the loosest possible way this season admittedly
@DevC and @bourne70 can debate finances, the psychology of playing down expectations, performance versus results etc until they are blue in the face. The plain fact is that home form is appalling - two wins since 29 September- and hoofball has been rife. I've brought friends to matches and, frankly, there have been times when I have been embarrassed. It seems to me a nonsense to suggest that we HAVE to play hoofball "because it's League 2". There have been a few home games when we have kept it on the deck for short periods and it has been a joy to behold. Wouldn't it be great to see it most of the time.
@aloysius In my opinion, if everyone had to preface every post on this site by saying 'in my opinion', the site would be very cumbersome to read. In my opinion, it would be better if people did not write 'in my opinion' before every opinion.
See what I mean?
@micra; I'm in the same camp, brought friends and family to a game, was embarrassed with the direct and non passing during the match plus it was frigging freezing too.
We can play attractive football in stints, don't mind our usual stuff but for the majority of the game is tough one to watch. So let's shake it up with creativity in midfield and enterprising on them wings.
I wonder how many people realise that we have won only 2 home games in 4 months.