Octopus are quite expensive for solar installs, which is surprising as they are only really interested in completely straightforward jobs.
Even having a garage that is two feet from the house that you want to put batteries in will rule them out. They sub-contract anyway, so better finding someone local with a good reputation.
Spotted this week that another old Mail/Telegraph EV bogeyman appears to be under pressure, with car batteries lasting far longer than predicted.
Whilst we all acknowledge (I hope) that solar & wind power are zero carbon at the point of production, how green are they really?
TLDR: Green tech is genuinely green & really ought to be our direction of travel
Production
Both wind & solar not only have land-use considerations, but also there is the carbon emissions in their construction & siting that needs to be considered when assessing their green credentials.
There have been a significant number of life cycle assessment analysis carried out globally of the carbon emissions from the production & siting of both wind turbines & solar "farms" - the former creates between 5 & 26g of CO2 per kWh of electricy generated whilst the latter has a much wider current range due to the advances in output efficiency between newer & older generations of panel of between 20 & 215g per kWh.
In comparison the most efficient coal fired power stations generate a minimum of 750g kWh & the least efficient in the region of 1800g kWh whereas gas comes in at between 300g & 1000g kWh.
The "green" technology clearly in terms of lifecycle CO2 contribution wins hands down.
Land use & the choice of sites whilst having a small impact on the carbon cycle of the procust has a much greater societal consequence. Wind turbine "farms" be their nature need to be sited where their is the greatest lieklihood of regular wind so are generally placed either offshore (something we have lots of in the UK) or in remoter locations. Solar is more problematic as industrial size installations are currently being targetted at prime agricultural land especially in the south of England rather than on marginal land. It is worth noting in France for example it is now mandatory for all new build non residential buildings to install solar or green roofs & they have started to put solar panels on "stilts" over carparks etc. In South Korea they have recently installed a solar panel roof over the cycle paths in the centre of new roads. We clearly need to employ the same imagination here.
Recyclability
In the UK at the moment is there is only 1 solar panel recycling facility - based in Scunthorpe, given solar panels have a life of c25 years; we are coming to the tipping point where many of the early adopters will need to replace their panels yet we really do not have the capacity to deal with them.
As an aside in silicon based panels c95% of the glass is recyclable, 100% of the aluminium & 85% of the silicon leaving a tiny amount of materials that are unrecoverable or lost in the processing. The numbers are slightly different for thin film panels with c90% of the glass & 95% of the semiconductor materials recycled. Thin film panels have the added issue in that the semiconductor film is rich in cadmium, which is an environmental toxin. A further fly in the ointment is the recycling process currently uses a lot of water & a variety of noxious chemicals to leech out & recover the metals. Thankfully the EU has fnded a variety of pilot plants across Europe to improve the recovery & reuse of solar panels, so processing should get more efficient, produce higher purity outputs with less downstream toxic waste risks.
With regard to wind turbines, we are again coming to the end of life of the first generation, thankfully even on these old models the majority of the components are fully recyclable including the outer shell, shafts, gearing and electrical components. Sadly the blades are generally made of fibreglass which is essentially non-recyclable, though their are various on going projects across Europe looking at ways of using the material as a part of the concrete production process & a number of architectural & engineering firms have reused them in their entirety in construction projects.
Overall there is a way to go but solar & wind are clearly (for me) a much more environmentally friendly energy production option than coal/gas/oil.
The fledgling generation technology we really haven't explored in the Uk beyond traditional hydro schemes is water, we not only enjoy waves on the sea surrounding our island almost every day but every coastal inch experiences 2 tides (4 generation cycles) per day with places like the Severn Estuary having a 15m tidal range, Dover having a 7+m range & the Thames Estuary a 5.5m range, these involve the movement of huge volumes of water that ought to be harnessed to generate electricity.
Whilst all these posts addressing environmental issues are laudable, this issue is not the main concern amongst the majority of the UK electorate.
As reminder, at the July 2024 General Election, Labour received 34% of the popular vote, with the Conservatives on 24%, Reform on 14%, LibDems on 12% and Green Parties on 7%, giving them just 4 of the 650 seats.
This suggests that most people are far more concerned with the economy, taxation, health, education law and order, immigration etc., than they are with environmental considerations.
So you think trying to tackle Climate change should be ignored as 'the people' aren't keen @bargepole ?
Even if you assume every Tory wants to burn coal and the woke in their agas and drive their diesel 4x4s up and down the country to take flights from various airports, surely your figures would suggest 53% voted for parties more inclined towards environmental issues...
The reintroduction of capital punishment would require a separate referendum, and I can't see any Government ever allowing that, whichever party is in power.
Your figure of 53% presumably includes those who voted Labour, LibDem, and Green. I don't see any evidence that climate change played a major part in those choices.
I'm not suggesting that climate change issues should be ignored; I'm simply pointing out that it is not at the top of most people's agenda. Those people gluing themselves to motorway junctions, and sprinkling orange paint on works of art, and at various sporting venues, are doing their cause no favours, they are a small minority trying to impose their views on the majority.
Or are they trying to shake the sheeple out of their MSN/Social media stupor?
Based on my conversations with people of all political persuasions down here on the Kent coast, other than the most rabid Faragistas they are all mildly to deeply concerned about climate change but equally despair of the rich & powerful who are offering no leadership on this at all & feel that their efforts are for naught without some form of proper leadership & joined up thought.
We should marginalise and dismiss issues because they are not forefront of a main party’s manifesto!? It’s one way to organise a moral system I suppose.
Most people are clever enough to realise that they don’t vote in a vacuum and that they have a first past the post system where winner takes all. They therefore chose on the basis of who of the leading pack they favour.
Besides which, even the Tories were pro environmental reform under Green Dave and even Johnson before Truss and her Tufton Street loonies took control. Labour only had to dial down their environmental plans because of the rabid right wing press frothing over a fictional £27bn number whilst simultaneously insisting they committed to ruling out any raise in NI and Income Tax.
Completely ignoring the fact people are forced to vote tactically by our antiquated electoral system. Absolutely no point me (or many others) voting Green, so went Lib/Dem in large part because they take environmental issues seriously.
The quirks of the current electoral system, which awards a disproportionate number of seats to the larger parties, and a correspondinlgy lower number to the minor parties, is a separate discussion, and has been debated many times.
We had a referendum on this in 2011, and people voted to keep first past the post, primarily because many could see that any other system would result in an endless series of coalitions.
The farmers' protests were mainly confined to Central London as I remember, and didn't cause anything like the disruption caused by the Just Stop Oil nutters.
So the police response was proportionate, and there was no need for any arrests.
Comments
Octopus are quite expensive for solar installs, which is surprising as they are only really interested in completely straightforward jobs.
Even having a garage that is two feet from the house that you want to put batteries in will rule them out. They sub-contract anyway, so better finding someone local with a good reputation.
Spotted this week that another old Mail/Telegraph EV bogeyman appears to be under pressure, with car batteries lasting far longer than predicted.
https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2024/12/existing-ev-batteries-may-last-up-to-40-longer-than-expected
Whilst we all acknowledge (I hope) that solar & wind power are zero carbon at the point of production, how green are they really?
TLDR: Green tech is genuinely green & really ought to be our direction of travel
Production
Both wind & solar not only have land-use considerations, but also there is the carbon emissions in their construction & siting that needs to be considered when assessing their green credentials.
There have been a significant number of life cycle assessment analysis carried out globally of the carbon emissions from the production & siting of both wind turbines & solar "farms" - the former creates between 5 & 26g of CO2 per kWh of electricy generated whilst the latter has a much wider current range due to the advances in output efficiency between newer & older generations of panel of between 20 & 215g per kWh.
In comparison the most efficient coal fired power stations generate a minimum of 750g kWh & the least efficient in the region of 1800g kWh whereas gas comes in at between 300g & 1000g kWh.
The "green" technology clearly in terms of lifecycle CO2 contribution wins hands down.
Land use & the choice of sites whilst having a small impact on the carbon cycle of the procust has a much greater societal consequence. Wind turbine "farms" be their nature need to be sited where their is the greatest lieklihood of regular wind so are generally placed either offshore (something we have lots of in the UK) or in remoter locations. Solar is more problematic as industrial size installations are currently being targetted at prime agricultural land especially in the south of England rather than on marginal land. It is worth noting in France for example it is now mandatory for all new build non residential buildings to install solar or green roofs & they have started to put solar panels on "stilts" over carparks etc. In South Korea they have recently installed a solar panel roof over the cycle paths in the centre of new roads. We clearly need to employ the same imagination here.
Recyclability
In the UK at the moment is there is only 1 solar panel recycling facility - based in Scunthorpe, given solar panels have a life of c25 years; we are coming to the tipping point where many of the early adopters will need to replace their panels yet we really do not have the capacity to deal with them.
As an aside in silicon based panels c95% of the glass is recyclable, 100% of the aluminium & 85% of the silicon leaving a tiny amount of materials that are unrecoverable or lost in the processing. The numbers are slightly different for thin film panels with c90% of the glass & 95% of the semiconductor materials recycled. Thin film panels have the added issue in that the semiconductor film is rich in cadmium, which is an environmental toxin. A further fly in the ointment is the recycling process currently uses a lot of water & a variety of noxious chemicals to leech out & recover the metals. Thankfully the EU has fnded a variety of pilot plants across Europe to improve the recovery & reuse of solar panels, so processing should get more efficient, produce higher purity outputs with less downstream toxic waste risks.
With regard to wind turbines, we are again coming to the end of life of the first generation, thankfully even on these old models the majority of the components are fully recyclable including the outer shell, shafts, gearing and electrical components. Sadly the blades are generally made of fibreglass which is essentially non-recyclable, though their are various on going projects across Europe looking at ways of using the material as a part of the concrete production process & a number of architectural & engineering firms have reused them in their entirety in construction projects.
Overall there is a way to go but solar & wind are clearly (for me) a much more environmentally friendly energy production option than coal/gas/oil.
The fledgling generation technology we really haven't explored in the Uk beyond traditional hydro schemes is water, we not only enjoy waves on the sea surrounding our island almost every day but every coastal inch experiences 2 tides (4 generation cycles) per day with places like the Severn Estuary having a 15m tidal range, Dover having a 7+m range & the Thames Estuary a 5.5m range, these involve the movement of huge volumes of water that ought to be harnessed to generate electricity.
Whilst all these posts addressing environmental issues are laudable, this issue is not the main concern amongst the majority of the UK electorate.
As reminder, at the July 2024 General Election, Labour received 34% of the popular vote, with the Conservatives on 24%, Reform on 14%, LibDems on 12% and Green Parties on 7%, giving them just 4 of the 650 seats.
This suggests that most people are far more concerned with the economy, taxation, health, education law and order, immigration etc., than they are with environmental considerations.
I just thank God hanging wasn't on the ballot.
So you think trying to tackle Climate change should be ignored as 'the people' aren't keen @bargepole ?
Even if you assume every Tory wants to burn coal and the woke in their agas and drive their diesel 4x4s up and down the country to take flights from various airports, surely your figures would suggest 53% voted for parties more inclined towards environmental issues...
Other opinions are available as usual.
The reintroduction of capital punishment would require a separate referendum, and I can't see any Government ever allowing that, whichever party is in power.
Your figure of 53% presumably includes those who voted Labour, LibDem, and Green. I don't see any evidence that climate change played a major part in those choices.
I'm not suggesting that climate change issues should be ignored; I'm simply pointing out that it is not at the top of most people's agenda. Those people gluing themselves to motorway junctions, and sprinkling orange paint on works of art, and at various sporting venues, are doing their cause no favours, they are a small minority trying to impose their views on the majority.
Are they?
Or are they trying to shake the sheeple out of their MSN/Social media stupor?
Based on my conversations with people of all political persuasions down here on the Kent coast, other than the most rabid Faragistas they are all mildly to deeply concerned about climate change but equally despair of the rich & powerful who are offering no leadership on this at all & feel that their efforts are for naught without some form of proper leadership & joined up thought.
We should marginalise and dismiss issues because they are not forefront of a main party’s manifesto!? It’s one way to organise a moral system I suppose.
Most people are clever enough to realise that they don’t vote in a vacuum and that they have a first past the post system where winner takes all. They therefore chose on the basis of who of the leading pack they favour.
Besides which, even the Tories were pro environmental reform under Green Dave and even Johnson before Truss and her Tufton Street loonies took control. Labour only had to dial down their environmental plans because of the rabid right wing press frothing over a fictional £27bn number whilst simultaneously insisting they committed to ruling out any raise in NI and Income Tax.
Still, will if the people and all that 🙄 .
Completely ignoring the fact people are forced to vote tactically by our antiquated electoral system. Absolutely no point me (or many others) voting Green, so went Lib/Dem in large part because they take environmental issues seriously.
The quirks of the current electoral system, which awards a disproportionate number of seats to the larger parties, and a correspondinlgy lower number to the minor parties, is a separate discussion, and has been debated many times.
We had a referendum on this in 2011, and people voted to keep first past the post, primarily because many could see that any other system would result in an endless series of coalitions.
@bargepole what are your views on another vocal minority (farmers) benefiting from two tier policing in their recent London protests?
I imagine those tractors slowed up a few ambulances, although the usual suspects seem to have gone very quiet about that issue.
The general public who aren’t interested in climate change will conveniently pivot to ‘why was nothing done about this’ when it’s too late.
The farmers' protests were mainly confined to Central London as I remember, and didn't cause anything like the disruption caused by the Just Stop Oil nutters.
So the police response was proportionate, and there was no need for any arrests.
I found that article about the cost of solar plummeting, it's a very good read if you're interested in that kind of thing. I found it because the author has posted another very interesting post about why the UK has such expensive leccy.
@drcongo thanks good reads