I am convinced (a) that fiddling around and making marginal adjustments to ticket and other prices is not going to make much difference to attendances and I know (b) that the experience until recently of “one off”spectators has generally left them unimpressed to put it politely. Over the last ten years, I’ve heard negative comments time and again from people in that category about the “style” of football. Crap (and worse) were the terms frequently used.
That is not to deny of course the significance of geography (Big London clubs within less than an hour), accessibility, Sky+, WanderersTV, food and drink costs etc but the quality of the football has to be a major factor.
We/Us (?) dyed in the wool fans used to enjoy the undeniable success that Gazball achieved but the adulation was driven mainly by results and flashes of individual brilliance on the pitch. The quality of football now is hugely improved and the whole approach is very much based on slick passing on the deck and sustained attack. Our goal tally (17 from 9 matches) is a true reflection of that approach.
It takes time and patience for something as fundamental as the complete transformation in philosophy and approach to how we play to register and be communicated to missing former regulars and potential newbies.
Look at what our North Bucks neighbours are doing. Easily digestible. Five different match day ticket prices - we have 30 different prices just for home fans. Their adults go in increments of £5. Children in increments of £3. Very simple to understand and memorable. You can get 1 x adult and 2 x young children for £26. Our cheapest option is £34. Their stadium parking isn’t £10 either.
It’s very likely their pricing will generate a revenue loss in the short/medium term, but they’ve got the seat supply and an owner willing to cover the losses (for now).
By comparison, you can’t even view our ticket prices on the WWFC tickets site without having to log in or create an account or visit a separate page. That is shocking. Everyone who works even loosely closely with marketing / branding knows the important of keeping a customer engaged at the first point of sale. There has to be a ‘guest’ option. We’re immediately locking ourselves away from customers.
These are just bare basics that we are getting terribly wrong. It’s plainly obvious for all. I’m sure there’s all sorts of interesting data we aren’t using properly to price.
When I turn up to an empty Adams Park on a Tuesday night it makes me angry. A forward thinking club will begin to price Tuesdays cheaper than Saturday by the beginning of next season. If we’re so data-literate we should be at the forefront.
Go to google, type in Wycombe tickets and click on prices.
What would you price Tuesday games at next season for adults? I assume you also reflect that reduced price in season ticket prices? Is it price that stops people coming or other factors? Do you have a rough calculation of financial benefit of reducing price?
We seem to go round in circles with this conversation and have done for years.
I would like to see the club target schools and local kids football though. Freebies for kids and cheap tickets for accompanying adults for select matches. Maybe most of those people won't keeping coming back but some will. Going to watch your local club is a habit that needs to be learned, and nurtured.
I remember going to my first game - back in 1979 - after being handed a fixture card by an old bloke on the High Street; I don't think I even knew Wycombe had a football club back then. Even then going to watch Wycombe wasn't regular but it became so over a few years and I'm now a hopeless addict.
It is true. I said “or visit a separate page” - if you’re using Google, then that’s a separate page. You shouldn’t have to do that. That’s quite literally my point.
The Tuesday night games is an idea I’d want to test once or twice in league games this season to see if it worked. Tuesdays are often competing with Champions League, firestick or £10 ifollow. Yet we price them like it’s a Saturday and visually only seem to get 2500-3000 attendees in recent instances (despite reporting far higher). Many other industries (rail, air, hotels) price dynamically. I recognise that’s contradicting my previous post but I’m sure there’s a digestible way of approaching it e.g. £5 off all ticket types on Tuesdays vs Saturdays, including children's. Again, I stress I’d want to test this before rolling out across a season.
Why do you incessantly ask me what I would set the prices at? It requires a thorough analysis of all the data - not just average price vs attendance vs revenue. It’s far more intricate than that.
Sorry @frequentstander, but the rules of the Gasroom state that if you have any kind of suggestion for improving attendances you must then submit to cross-examination from @DevC about every single detail so that he can tell you you're wrong. cf: Town planning.
A new customer is presumably going to go through Google or similar to find Wycombe Wanderers site and from there to the main ticketing page. Prices are on that page. You have got that one wrong.
Lets have a look at your Tuesday example and reducing prices by £5 per head to boost attendences. I believe we have about 2500 season ticket holders and generally Tuesday games attract around 700 home pay per game supporters and say 300 away supporters (depending on opponents) - 3500 total paying gate.
You are reducing prices by £5 including presumably for season ticket holders and away supporters - so 3500 *5 = £17,500 loss of revenue
Lets say average discounted ticket price paid on the night would be £20. To make up that lost revenue you would need to sell an extra 875 tickets to break even on your scheme. Presumably away supporter numbers would not be affected so all home supporters. So we need to roughly double home pay on day supporters from 700 to c 1600. Do you think a £5 reduction would have that impact (if of course I have got the numbers roughly right)?
I can do the arithmetic just like you can but - as I have said at least three times now - anyone would need to review the data.
I didn’t say that blanket-cutting of prices across the board would be beneficial to revenue across a season. That’s obviously nonsensical and anyone could work that out without data. I don’t know why you’re looking for a ‘gotcha’ moment.
I am trying to see if your point is credible. You have been quite scathing towards the club but honestly your point about display of ticket prices was factually wrong, your suggestion of cutting prices on Tuesdays seems likely to result in loss of revenue (which we assume is not what we are trying to achieve) and you keep on claiming that the club is getting its pricing wrong yet when asked to give examples of how, you keep on saying you can't possibly suggest that without inspecting the data, so presumably you also can't tell whether the club is getting pricing wrong without inspecting the data.
When new users want to buy a Wycombe ticket, their likely search will be “Wycombe football tickets” or “Wycombe Wanderers tickets”
Then they get to our ticketing site. They click the game they are hoping to attend. Then they’re immediately locked out with a prompt to suggest ‘log in’ or ‘create an account’ with no option to check out as a guest. They don’t get a chance to see the price until they’ve faffed around trying to sort an account for themselves, unless they actively search for it on a separate window, which immediately lessens the chance of them purchasing from us. That’s basic marketing.
Unless I’m delusional, most people do not immediately google the price of something they wish to attend. They don’t search “oasis ticket prices”. They don’t search “cineworld ticket prices”. They don’t search “aquarium prices”. They search for “tickets”.
Anyway, my patience has worn thin and I’ve got work to do so I’ll leave you to it.
Our new users then get a very helpful page to click on called "prices and how to book". On a mobile its the second item down (after season tickets) , on a desktop its on the right of the screen.
By comparison, you can’t even view our ticket prices on the WWFC ticketssite without having to log in or create an account or visit a separate page.
So, your evidence that he's wrong is to point out the exact separate page that he mentioned. Go to the "WWFC tickets site" that he's actually talking about, he's factually correct. These stupid fucking arguments against something that you've imagined are infuriating for the rest of the board.
I suspect @frequentstander there is an issue with checking out as a guest?
The club, quite rightly, need to ensure fans are segregated and can only do so by using the purchasers details when buying the ticket.
This is not a difficulty when buying say beans at Tesco, or a theatre ticket. Although even then they do have to obtain the purchasers information to be able to complete the purchase - deliver the beans or ticket/eticket.
You seem to want the price as the headline statement on the ticketing page. The club have chosen to provide a link, which is accessible very easily, to give prices in the different areas.
I don't see this as such a big deal.
What I would debate regards the pricing is whether it needs to be based on breakeven. With the wealth of our current owner it would seem to be worth the risk of making a loss in ticket prices to try and increase attendances.
It might work and it might not, but without trying we'll never know. Who knows? And, FWIW, I don't need to inspect any data to jump to my conclusion.
Casual punters are not going to deliberately type in the URL for the ticket purchase site; they are going to Google. If you Google for 'Wycombe Wanderers' or 'Wycombe Wanderers Tickets' the results display a link named 'Tickets' which, when clicked, takes you to the page @DevC describes, with a link to view prices and how to book.
New CEO at MK is cutting ticket prices, to bring back the fans. He says he can't change season ticket prices mid-season, but that is surely going to irritate holders.
I wonder if someone has concluded that the revenue from Sky and WTV is so good actual in person attendance doesn't matter that much. It would explain the lack of (apparent) action.
On your Google it returns that as the top result, but as everyone knows, everybody's Google results are different. I don't use Google because they spy on you, but a search for "Wycombe Wanderers tickets" on my search engine has that as the second result, and tickets.wwfc.com as the top result. Aside from which, you're agreeing with @DevC's made up straw-man rather than disagreeing with @frequentstander who very clearly stated that there's no prices on the tickets site.
So you agree that ticket prices are very easy to find on the Wycombe tickets page, indeed would logically be the first page a new supporter would go to. as it is designed to be.
There are many things which our club could be criticised for. That really wasn't one of them IMHO.
Although we DO have the option to reduce ST prices for subscribers. Lump sum ST holders could be offered free guest tickets, credit in the club shop etc.
If it were me in charge I’d declare all U18 tickets £1 for the remainder of the season, start whipping up interest in schools and build from there.
How about a pair of free tickets to any former ST holder?
Our performances these days have to be seen to be believed. The next home game (against Peterborough on 19 October) should be a feast of good open football with substantial numbers of Posh fans contributing to an excellent atmosphere.
I appreciate that many matches can be seen “on a screen near you” but, believe me, it’s no substitute for being at the match.
Although it would be possible to ‘course correct’ the season ticket holders outlay by offering them reduce price cup tickets or food and beverage vouchers. That’s if he wants to reward and retain loyalty (not something service based business are good at). I suspect that (like so many service businesses) the obsessive chasing after new customers whilst taking advantage of loyalist will be the new management mantra at MK.
Surely the simplest option, if it's not already been done, is for our moneybags/data driven new bosses to commission a market research agency to poll people in Buckinghamshire and ask all those who say they watch football on TV what might persuade them to visit Adams Park... Is it cost of entry, accessibility, facilities avail, perceived quality of entertainment or something else. A quantitative poll wouldn't cost that much, some follow up qualitative focus groups to hone any offer we could make would be more expensive but almost certainly helpful.
But it's just not true that there isn't a very clear link to ticket prices on the tickets page of the website.
However you arrive at that page, if you want to know the price of tickets it's really easy to find out.
If @frequentstander is suggesting the lack of it being a headline banner is stopping people booking the tickets then we have no hope of attracting new people to come to games.
There are lots of issues to debate around tickets but saying you can't find the price of a match day ticket really isn't one of them.
Comments
Is it? Possible of course. In what way?
Where were we sat in the league this time last season, in terms of overall league position, and recent form? Probably somewhere near the bottom?
No, the howler is mine - apologies.
I read "home crowd" as "total attendance at a home match" but you clearly meant "number of home supporters"
I'll take the deserved mockery coming my way on that one
Nah about 8th from memory
That is spot on.
I am convinced (a) that fiddling around and making marginal adjustments to ticket and other prices is not going to make much difference to attendances and I know (b) that the experience until recently of “one off”spectators has generally left them unimpressed to put it politely. Over the last ten years, I’ve heard negative comments time and again from people in that category about the “style” of football. Crap (and worse) were the terms frequently used.
That is not to deny of course the significance of geography (Big London clubs within less than an hour), accessibility, Sky+, WanderersTV, food and drink costs etc but the quality of the football has to be a major factor.
We/Us (?) dyed in the wool fans used to enjoy the undeniable success that Gazball achieved but the adulation was driven mainly by results and flashes of individual brilliance on the pitch. The quality of football now is hugely improved and the whole approach is very much based on slick passing on the deck and sustained attack. Our goal tally (17 from 9 matches) is a true reflection of that approach.
It takes time and patience for something as fundamental as the complete transformation in philosophy and approach to how we play to register and be communicated to missing former regulars and potential newbies.
https://x.com/mkdonsfc/status/1843245051750781259?s=46&t=1RBEO4WBqGcRsvgU2yU85Q
Look at what our North Bucks neighbours are doing. Easily digestible. Five different match day ticket prices - we have 30 different prices just for home fans. Their adults go in increments of £5. Children in increments of £3. Very simple to understand and memorable. You can get 1 x adult and 2 x young children for £26. Our cheapest option is £34. Their stadium parking isn’t £10 either.
It’s very likely their pricing will generate a revenue loss in the short/medium term, but they’ve got the seat supply and an owner willing to cover the losses (for now).
By comparison, you can’t even view our ticket prices on the WWFC tickets site without having to log in or create an account or visit a separate page. That is shocking. Everyone who works even loosely closely with marketing / branding knows the important of keeping a customer engaged at the first point of sale. There has to be a ‘guest’ option. We’re immediately locking ourselves away from customers.
These are just bare basics that we are getting terribly wrong. It’s plainly obvious for all. I’m sure there’s all sorts of interesting data we aren’t using properly to price.
When I turn up to an empty Adams Park on a Tuesday night it makes me angry. A forward thinking club will begin to price Tuesdays cheaper than Saturday by the beginning of next season. If we’re so data-literate we should be at the forefront.
That simply isnt true, @frequentstander
Go to google, type in Wycombe tickets and click on prices.
What would you price Tuesday games at next season for adults? I assume you also reflect that reduced price in season ticket prices? Is it price that stops people coming or other factors? Do you have a rough calculation of financial benefit of reducing price?
We seem to go round in circles with this conversation and have done for years.
I would like to see the club target schools and local kids football though. Freebies for kids and cheap tickets for accompanying adults for select matches. Maybe most of those people won't keeping coming back but some will. Going to watch your local club is a habit that needs to be learned, and nurtured.
I remember going to my first game - back in 1979 - after being handed a fixture card by an old bloke on the High Street; I don't think I even knew Wycombe had a football club back then. Even then going to watch Wycombe wasn't regular but it became so over a few years and I'm now a hopeless addict.
It is true. I said “or visit a separate page” - if you’re using Google, then that’s a separate page. You shouldn’t have to do that. That’s quite literally my point.
The Tuesday night games is an idea I’d want to test once or twice in league games this season to see if it worked. Tuesdays are often competing with Champions League, firestick or £10 ifollow. Yet we price them like it’s a Saturday and visually only seem to get 2500-3000 attendees in recent instances (despite reporting far higher). Many other industries (rail, air, hotels) price dynamically. I recognise that’s contradicting my previous post but I’m sure there’s a digestible way of approaching it e.g. £5 off all ticket types on Tuesdays vs Saturdays, including children's. Again, I stress I’d want to test this before rolling out across a season.
Why do you incessantly ask me what I would set the prices at? It requires a thorough analysis of all the data - not just average price vs attendance vs revenue. It’s far more intricate than that.
Sorry @frequentstander, but the rules of the Gasroom state that if you have any kind of suggestion for improving attendances you must then submit to cross-examination from @DevC about every single detail so that he can tell you you're wrong. cf: Town planning.
A new customer is presumably going to go through Google or similar to find Wycombe Wanderers site and from there to the main ticketing page. Prices are on that page. You have got that one wrong.
Tickets - Wycombe Wanderers (wwfc.com)
Lets have a look at your Tuesday example and reducing prices by £5 per head to boost attendences. I believe we have about 2500 season ticket holders and generally Tuesday games attract around 700 home pay per game supporters and say 300 away supporters (depending on opponents) - 3500 total paying gate.
You are reducing prices by £5 including presumably for season ticket holders and away supporters - so 3500 *5 = £17,500 loss of revenue
Lets say average discounted ticket price paid on the night would be £20. To make up that lost revenue you would need to sell an extra 875 tickets to break even on your scheme. Presumably away supporter numbers would not be affected so all home supporters. So we need to roughly double home pay on day supporters from 700 to c 1600. Do you think a £5 reduction would have that impact (if of course I have got the numbers roughly right)?
I can do the arithmetic just like you can but - as I have said at least three times now - anyone would need to review the data.
I didn’t say that blanket-cutting of prices across the board would be beneficial to revenue across a season. That’s obviously nonsensical and anyone could work that out without data. I don’t know why you’re looking for a ‘gotcha’ moment.
DevC - I must admit that I can't understand why you don't attend the games as you seem to have plenty of time on your hands?! The price perhaps?!
I am trying to see if your point is credible. You have been quite scathing towards the club but honestly your point about display of ticket prices was factually wrong, your suggestion of cutting prices on Tuesdays seems likely to result in loss of revenue (which we assume is not what we are trying to achieve) and you keep on claiming that the club is getting its pricing wrong yet when asked to give examples of how, you keep on saying you can't possibly suggest that without inspecting the data, so presumably you also can't tell whether the club is getting pricing wrong without inspecting the data.
It wasn’t factually wrong.
When new users want to buy a Wycombe ticket, their likely search will be “Wycombe football tickets” or “Wycombe Wanderers tickets”
Then they get to our ticketing site. They click the game they are hoping to attend. Then they’re immediately locked out with a prompt to suggest ‘log in’ or ‘create an account’ with no option to check out as a guest. They don’t get a chance to see the price until they’ve faffed around trying to sort an account for themselves, unless they actively search for it on a separate window, which immediately lessens the chance of them purchasing from us. That’s basic marketing.
Unless I’m delusional, most people do not immediately google the price of something they wish to attend. They don’t search “oasis ticket prices”. They don’t search “cineworld ticket prices”. They don’t search “aquarium prices”. They search for “tickets”.
Anyway, my patience has worn thin and I’ve got work to do so I’ll leave you to it.
I agree that is exactly the route. Google Wycombe Wanderers or Wycombe Wanderers Tickets.
Either route (directly or indirectly) takes you to the Wycombe Wanderers ticket page.
Tickets - Wycombe Wanderers (wwfc.com)
Our new users then get a very helpful page to click on called "prices and how to book". On a mobile its the second item down (after season tickets) , on a desktop its on the right of the screen.
Are you suggesting they wouldn't find this page?
He's suggesting nothing of the sort, he's already explained this several times.
Here @DevC, seeing as you can't scroll up...
By comparison, you can’t even view our ticket prices on the WWFC tickets site without having to log in or create an account or visit a separate page.
So, your evidence that he's wrong is to point out the exact separate page that he mentioned. Go to the "WWFC tickets site" that he's actually talking about, he's factually correct. These stupid fucking arguments against something that you've imagined are infuriating for the rest of the board.
I suspect @frequentstander there is an issue with checking out as a guest?
The club, quite rightly, need to ensure fans are segregated and can only do so by using the purchasers details when buying the ticket.
This is not a difficulty when buying say beans at Tesco, or a theatre ticket. Although even then they do have to obtain the purchasers information to be able to complete the purchase - deliver the beans or ticket/eticket.
You seem to want the price as the headline statement on the ticketing page. The club have chosen to provide a link, which is accessible very easily, to give prices in the different areas.
I don't see this as such a big deal.
What I would debate regards the pricing is whether it needs to be based on breakeven. With the wealth of our current owner it would seem to be worth the risk of making a loss in ticket prices to try and increase attendances.
It might work and it might not, but without trying we'll never know. Who knows? And, FWIW, I don't need to inspect any data to jump to my conclusion.
They're both right, but I'm with @DevC
Casual punters are not going to deliberately type in the URL for the ticket purchase site; they are going to Google. If you Google for 'Wycombe Wanderers' or 'Wycombe Wanderers Tickets' the results display a link named 'Tickets' which, when clicked, takes you to the page @DevC describes, with a link to view prices and how to book.
In the context of increasing long term attendances, calculating how reduced prices affect the revenue of one game is a category error.
The aim is to reduce prices to get more people in over time and to ensnare them into a lifetime of attending.
The Couhigs were quite dismissive of ticket promotions or discounts, very much to the detriment of our crowd sizes.
New CEO at MK is cutting ticket prices, to bring back the fans. He says he can't change season ticket prices mid-season, but that is surely going to irritate holders.
https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/sport/football/mk-dons/dons-slash-prices-to-become-cheapest-ticket-in-league-two-4813093
I wonder if someone has concluded that the revenue from Sky and WTV is so good actual in person attendance doesn't matter that much. It would explain the lack of (apparent) action.
On your Google it returns that as the top result, but as everyone knows, everybody's Google results are different. I don't use Google because they spy on you, but a search for "Wycombe Wanderers tickets" on my search engine has that as the second result, and tickets.wwfc.com as the top result. Aside from which, you're agreeing with @DevC's made up straw-man rather than disagreeing with @frequentstander who very clearly stated that there's no prices on the tickets site.
So you agree that ticket prices are very easy to find on the Wycombe tickets page, indeed would logically be the first page a new supporter would go to. as it is designed to be.
There are many things which our club could be criticised for. That really wasn't one of them IMHO.
Although we DO have the option to reduce ST prices for subscribers. Lump sum ST holders could be offered free guest tickets, credit in the club shop etc.
If it were me in charge I’d declare all U18 tickets £1 for the remainder of the season, start whipping up interest in schools and build from there.
How about a pair of free tickets to any former ST holder?
Our performances these days have to be seen to be believed. The next home game (against Peterborough on 19 October) should be a feast of good open football with substantial numbers of Posh fans contributing to an excellent atmosphere.
I appreciate that many matches can be seen “on a screen near you” but, believe me, it’s no substitute for being at the match.
Although it would be possible to ‘course correct’ the season ticket holders outlay by offering them reduce price cup tickets or food and beverage vouchers. That’s if he wants to reward and retain loyalty (not something service based business are good at). I suspect that (like so many service businesses) the obsessive chasing after new customers whilst taking advantage of loyalist will be the new management mantra at MK.
Surely the simplest option, if it's not already been done, is for our moneybags/data driven new bosses to commission a market research agency to poll people in Buckinghamshire and ask all those who say they watch football on TV what might persuade them to visit Adams Park... Is it cost of entry, accessibility, facilities avail, perceived quality of entertainment or something else. A quantitative poll wouldn't cost that much, some follow up qualitative focus groups to hone any offer we could make would be more expensive but almost certainly helpful.
But it's just not true that there isn't a very clear link to ticket prices on the tickets page of the website.
However you arrive at that page, if you want to know the price of tickets it's really easy to find out.
If @frequentstander is suggesting the lack of it being a headline banner is stopping people booking the tickets then we have no hope of attracting new people to come to games.
There are lots of issues to debate around tickets but saying you can't find the price of a match day ticket really isn't one of them.