I’ve said it a few times but if the club want me to do some free volunteering for the commercial side of the business then I’d be very happy to support. I lead a business analysis team. I’ve got a degree in economics. I have 5+ years experience of pricing. The attendances are worsening whilst the product is improving. That’s poor pricing. It’s quite clear that many of the terrace dwellers now are season ticket holders. Singular match day tickets are attending far less frequently and that’s almost certainly coincided with the recent change in ‘break even’ pricing structure of season tickets. Couple that with the introduction of Sky Sports+, the uptake of fire sticks (and Vipienne) in my age demographic and the changing demographics of Wycombe town centre in the last ten years and we are doing things incorrectly. Our owner is a billionaire who made his money in data, so there is no excuse for us to be pricing our product so incorrectly. Even worse, does it matter if we lose £3m a season or £4m a season? It’s way higher if we include Harlington. It’s a drop in the ocean for our owner. We’re already operating at a huge loss without ownership cash injection and we’re increasing our playing squad budget. The evidence so far is that the ownership group don’t care about running up larger financial losses and they don’t care about poor attendances. It’s disappointing. Anyway. The offer is there.
The big thing for me is the price of WWFC merchandise especially replica kits. I want to see dozens of kids walking round town in light and dark blue. Instead all that can be seen are Barcelona, Manchester United and Liverpool.
how much are kids kits these days? £60 plus. Even old ones.
make kids kits £20 a time, take a marginal loss and see the benefits
It's easy to point the finger at ticket prices, there are probably other factors that are affecting attendances.
Anyone stood near me on the terrace will be sick of me complaining about how soft people are these days, though the inconveniences the likes of me will happily take in my stride could well put off more casual punters who have more entertainment options at home than you can shake a (fire)stick at. Changes in the demographics of the local area in the past 25 years (less settled population, fewer well-paid skilled jobs, young adults more likely move away for opportunities) are harder to deal with and maybe requires more imagination to navigate.
What is concerning is that attendances are stagnant but clubs with similar or attendances historically are surpassing ours now. They have their own challenges to overcome to increase their crowds but manage it, we have to find out why we aren't.
I think some of it is a hangover from our ‘wouldn’t watch that every week’ era. I wouldn’t change that time for anything but bringing a neutral was a hard sell for years and I’m sure some were permanently put off lower league football after witnessing a few of our hoof-a-thons.
I haven’t been since my season ticket ended a few years ago. Many different reasons including starting a family and the cost of living, but add to that things like parking going up to £10 and fuel prices and suddenly you have a relatively expensive day out.
Prices were increased for promotion to the Championship, only a small number of people saw a ball kicked at that level, the prices stayed the same after relegation. There’s since been small increases on top of that.
Football attendance now seems to be based upon those who are so fanatical they will pay anything, and make sacrifices in their lives to prioritise it, or those that are wealthy enough not to care what they pay.
Wycombe only have a certain amount (seems to add up to 4000 people) of each group, and attracting more of either is going to be tough.
This is spot on. I know many one-off visitors who couldn’t believe what we were watching in the Gazball era.
We could buy into it because we understood the reasons and loved the pay off of incredible success + winding up the wealthy, but that was of no interest to the neutral. They just thought it was shite.
If we make the assumption (which could be challenged) that the club aim is to maximise its short and medium term gate revenues, I wonder what evidence there is that a drop in price of say 10% across the board would result in an increase in attendances of more than 11% to bring match day revenue back to the same level as current. In practice you might want to target specific areas but even then I wonder if that price/revenue dynamic exists. @frequentstander seems convinced that we are pricing incorrectly at present so would be interested to know what his impression is the solution is (albeit without seeing the data) and why he feels that (i presume) a price reduction would lead to higher revenue.
I’ve always thought a ‘carnet’ system where you buy a book of tickets priced between ‘season’ and ‘on the gate’ redeemable say across any 10 games (inc cups). This could pull in those who can’t commit (time &/or money) to attending every game whilst engendering some loyalty.
I’m not suggesting that blanket decreases in pricing across all forms of existing ticket types would benefit WWFC revenue. It would be easy to make assumptions as to why the attendances are falling. It requires thorough analysis and some testing to prove rationale before next season.
1) We are playing really football. I don't think the word is getting to the people who might be tempted to come down. Why? Premier League coverage is one reason it overwhelms everything in the sporting world. So little Jonny from High Wycombe will know Haaland's favourite cheese and no awareness that there is a club that is playing some good football with some really decent human beings at the centre of everything on and off the pitch. More outreach to schools and business about fixtures?
2) You are fighting in a really competitive market. When I grew up watching games at Loakes Park I had limited choices of what to do on a Saturday. A paper round and then football when I was young. And then when I became a youth the pubs closed after lunch but I could go to Loakes Park watch football, have 2 pints at half time, more after then back into The Angel. Football was about the only thing on a Saturday afternoon. You are now competing with TV, shopping as a hobby, etc etc. How do you get that spend directed at Wycombe Wanderers and not avocado on sour dough?
I picked this out in a post last season but our attendance growth has been significantly below all comparably-sized or comparably-located League 1-2 clubs despite us being more successful on the pitch than ever. Tuesday night games can be soulless with how empty it is in adams Park, especially for cup games.
I would argue that we are as wrong as everyone else. I would argue that a crappy seat at Northampton behind the goal at £25 is worse than a good seat in the Frank Adams. I would also argue that both are not really value for money but but we are not the problem.
Between the current ST pricing, particularly for the FA and then what I saw as gouging on pricing for the Villa game (it was £10 in the previous round away at Swansea) it is hard to bring casual fans along to a game. £29 for ticket in the FA is steep.
Then there is the pricing of the beer this season. A pint of bog standard Rebellion IPA is now £6......I'll let that sink in a little. £6!!!! Myself and a group of about 15-20 of us have been drinking pre match in the Vere since we moved to AP, this Saturday we seriously discussed drinking in town pre game going forward where we can get the same pint for under £4 and then getting a taxi to AP for kick off. We WANT to spend our money at the club, but two seasons ago it was £5 a pint and now it has increased 20%. I say again there are at least three decent venues in town selling IPA for less than £4.
So if anyone from the club is reading this please take note, the Vere was pretty empty on Saturday pre game and I feel it will only go one way if the exorbitant pricing isn't addressed.
oh and when I mentioned the price of a pint to the bar staff Saturday the response was a tired eyeroll followed by being told to "email Neil" which I have already done this morning.
I have just watched Matt Bloomfield’s”Crawley Reaction” on Wanderers TV. Did I really hear him concede the League1 title to Birmingham City? As a blues supporter for 60 years could I just bring to his attention that “It ain’t all over ‘til the fat lady sings” This is probably the best Wycombe squad ever and to dismiss the title so early in the season is defeatist to say the least,and relays to the players that second best is ok.In my book it’s “all for one and one for all”
To be fair to the new owners, they haven't had time to review pricing and adjust if they feel there is a problem in one or more pricing categories. Realistically, given season ticket pricing is set off match day prices, any changes they feel necessary can only be introduced at the start of the season.
You haven't really made the case for your assertion that the current pricing strategy is wrong. It may be but there appears to be no real evidence that a reduction of say 10% in one or all categories would attract more than 11% more attendees in that category. If you believe you can demonstrate why that is or is likely to be the case please do share. Otherwise I think we can only conclude that your assertion was at best premature.
Live football does have systemic challenges going forward. The average age of paying supporters does feel like it is increasing year on year as younger people have more alternatives and either choose that Lg1 football is not that attractive or maybe get priced out. As football gets ever more available on TV, those drivers are likely to get more pronounced. In our geographic area, the presence of a number of Premier League clubs relatively easily accessible is an issue as is the reality that HW population is relatively more transient than many of our competitors.
Simply asserting that a price reduction solves this problem and would increase revenue either in the short or medium term feels easy to say but in reality not necessarily the reality.
I'm amazed that some people think it's good value for tickets and at the ground, merch etc... it isn't. Perhaps if some of those people went to games, they might agree
The Villa game is an interesting one isn't it? I agree with you that at 29GBP it felt overpriced for the casual fan, and yet we had thousands more casual fans show up than we normally do. I think the fanbase is out there, but the majority aren't going to come to AP to watch us play Crawley or Burton. If we get a decent draw at home in the FA Cup i'm sure we'll have 8000+ at AP.
My question is what steps we're taking to keep the casual fan more involved. Should we offer everyone whose first trip to AP this season was the Villa game a discounted ticket for a future league game of their choice? Or a buy one get one? What about the fans who came to Wembley a few months ago, the vast majority of whom were not STHs. Have we offered them an incentive to come back?
"there appears to be no real evidence that a reduction of say 10% in one or all categories would attract more than 11% more attendees in that category. If you believe you can demonstrate why that is or is likely to be the case please do share"
Do give it a rest.
It's perfectly reasonable to note that it's quite expensive to go to Wycombe now and even though we're doing well and playing good football attendances are going down. It is also perfectly reasonable to therefore suggest that perhaps people are staying away because it costs too much. And it's perfectly reasonable to suggest this without having carried out extensive market research.
Of course it is reasonable to suggest what ever you want. Stating something as fact when there is no evidence to support that assertion deserves to be called out. (In my opinion).
By the way home crowd (acknowledging my debt for info to @railwaysteve ) seems to be pretty static compared to last season. 4064 against Crawley, 4061 in the nearest non family day match last season ( Blackpool).
Comments
Glad you keep your wits about you!
I’ve said it a few times but if the club want me to do some free volunteering for the commercial side of the business then I’d be very happy to support. I lead a business analysis team. I’ve got a degree in economics. I have 5+ years experience of pricing. The attendances are worsening whilst the product is improving. That’s poor pricing. It’s quite clear that many of the terrace dwellers now are season ticket holders. Singular match day tickets are attending far less frequently and that’s almost certainly coincided with the recent change in ‘break even’ pricing structure of season tickets. Couple that with the introduction of Sky Sports+, the uptake of fire sticks (and Vipienne) in my age demographic and the changing demographics of Wycombe town centre in the last ten years and we are doing things incorrectly. Our owner is a billionaire who made his money in data, so there is no excuse for us to be pricing our product so incorrectly. Even worse, does it matter if we lose £3m a season or £4m a season? It’s way higher if we include Harlington. It’s a drop in the ocean for our owner. We’re already operating at a huge loss without ownership cash injection and we’re increasing our playing squad budget. The evidence so far is that the ownership group don’t care about running up larger financial losses and they don’t care about poor attendances. It’s disappointing. Anyway. The offer is there.
What would you change prices to? Would you do this mid season or starting from next season.
The big thing for me is the price of WWFC merchandise especially replica kits. I want to see dozens of kids walking round town in light and dark blue. Instead all that can be seen are Barcelona, Manchester United and Liverpool.
how much are kids kits these days? £60 plus. Even old ones.
make kids kits £20 a time, take a marginal loss and see the benefits
I’d need to see the data and give it the attention it warrants
I would massively over simplify the issue as follows -
the product is improving - who knows ?
the market is unrecognisably more competitive than it was when attendances were significantly higher
It's easy to point the finger at ticket prices, there are probably other factors that are affecting attendances.
Anyone stood near me on the terrace will be sick of me complaining about how soft people are these days, though the inconveniences the likes of me will happily take in my stride could well put off more casual punters who have more entertainment options at home than you can shake a (fire)stick at. Changes in the demographics of the local area in the past 25 years (less settled population, fewer well-paid skilled jobs, young adults more likely move away for opportunities) are harder to deal with and maybe requires more imagination to navigate.
What is concerning is that attendances are stagnant but clubs with similar or attendances historically are surpassing ours now. They have their own challenges to overcome to increase their crowds but manage it, we have to find out why we aren't.
I think some of it is a hangover from our ‘wouldn’t watch that every week’ era. I wouldn’t change that time for anything but bringing a neutral was a hard sell for years and I’m sure some were permanently put off lower league football after witnessing a few of our hoof-a-thons.
I haven’t been since my season ticket ended a few years ago. Many different reasons including starting a family and the cost of living, but add to that things like parking going up to £10 and fuel prices and suddenly you have a relatively expensive day out.
Yes fair enough. But you say we are pricing our product incorrectly so presumably you must have some idea of the direction of travel required.
Simplification is all very well but, for me at least, both your points need elaboration.
Prices were increased for promotion to the Championship, only a small number of people saw a ball kicked at that level, the prices stayed the same after relegation. There’s since been small increases on top of that.
Football attendance now seems to be based upon those who are so fanatical they will pay anything, and make sacrifices in their lives to prioritise it, or those that are wealthy enough not to care what they pay.
Wycombe only have a certain amount (seems to add up to 4000 people) of each group, and attracting more of either is going to be tough.
This is spot on. I know many one-off visitors who couldn’t believe what we were watching in the Gazball era.
We could buy into it because we understood the reasons and loved the pay off of incredible success + winding up the wealthy, but that was of no interest to the neutral. They just thought it was shite.
If we make the assumption (which could be challenged) that the club aim is to maximise its short and medium term gate revenues, I wonder what evidence there is that a drop in price of say 10% across the board would result in an increase in attendances of more than 11% to bring match day revenue back to the same level as current. In practice you might want to target specific areas but even then I wonder if that price/revenue dynamic exists. @frequentstander seems convinced that we are pricing incorrectly at present so would be interested to know what his impression is the solution is (albeit without seeing the data) and why he feels that (i presume) a price reduction would lead to higher revenue.
I’ve always thought a ‘carnet’ system where you buy a book of tickets priced between ‘season’ and ‘on the gate’ redeemable say across any 10 games (inc cups). This could pull in those who can’t commit (time &/or money) to attending every game whilst engendering some loyalty.
Never been given a reason why this isn’t doable.
I’m not suggesting that blanket decreases in pricing across all forms of existing ticket types would benefit WWFC revenue. It would be easy to make assumptions as to why the attendances are falling. It requires thorough analysis and some testing to prove rationale before next season.
1) We are playing really football. I don't think the word is getting to the people who might be tempted to come down. Why? Premier League coverage is one reason it overwhelms everything in the sporting world. So little Jonny from High Wycombe will know Haaland's favourite cheese and no awareness that there is a club that is playing some good football with some really decent human beings at the centre of everything on and off the pitch. More outreach to schools and business about fixtures?
2) You are fighting in a really competitive market. When I grew up watching games at Loakes Park I had limited choices of what to do on a Saturday. A paper round and then football when I was young. And then when I became a youth the pubs closed after lunch but I could go to Loakes Park watch football, have 2 pints at half time, more after then back into The Angel. Football was about the only thing on a Saturday afternoon. You are now competing with TV, shopping as a hobby, etc etc. How do you get that spend directed at Wycombe Wanderers and not avocado on sour dough?
Ok. I just don’t understand how you have concluded they are getting pricing wrong yet now need data to determine where.
is it possible therefore that the data would show they have pricing about right?
I picked this out in a post last season but our attendance growth has been significantly below all comparably-sized or comparably-located League 1-2 clubs despite us being more successful on the pitch than ever. Tuesday night games can be soulless with how empty it is in adams Park, especially for cup games.
I would argue that we are as wrong as everyone else. I would argue that a crappy seat at Northampton behind the goal at £25 is worse than a good seat in the Frank Adams. I would also argue that both are not really value for money but but we are not the problem.
I tend to agree re pricing across the board.
Between the current ST pricing, particularly for the FA and then what I saw as gouging on pricing for the Villa game (it was £10 in the previous round away at Swansea) it is hard to bring casual fans along to a game. £29 for ticket in the FA is steep.
Then there is the pricing of the beer this season. A pint of bog standard Rebellion IPA is now £6......I'll let that sink in a little. £6!!!! Myself and a group of about 15-20 of us have been drinking pre match in the Vere since we moved to AP, this Saturday we seriously discussed drinking in town pre game going forward where we can get the same pint for under £4 and then getting a taxi to AP for kick off. We WANT to spend our money at the club, but two seasons ago it was £5 a pint and now it has increased 20%. I say again there are at least three decent venues in town selling IPA for less than £4.
So if anyone from the club is reading this please take note, the Vere was pretty empty on Saturday pre game and I feel it will only go one way if the exorbitant pricing isn't addressed.
oh and when I mentioned the price of a pint to the bar staff Saturday the response was a tired eyeroll followed by being told to "email Neil" which I have already done this morning.
I have just watched Matt Bloomfield’s”Crawley Reaction” on Wanderers TV. Did I really hear him concede the League1 title to Birmingham City? As a blues supporter for 60 years could I just bring to his attention that “It ain’t all over ‘til the fat lady sings” This is probably the best Wycombe squad ever and to dismiss the title so early in the season is defeatist to say the least,and relays to the players that second best is ok.In my book it’s “all for one and one for all”
Just believe !
To be fair to the new owners, they haven't had time to review pricing and adjust if they feel there is a problem in one or more pricing categories. Realistically, given season ticket pricing is set off match day prices, any changes they feel necessary can only be introduced at the start of the season.
You haven't really made the case for your assertion that the current pricing strategy is wrong. It may be but there appears to be no real evidence that a reduction of say 10% in one or all categories would attract more than 11% more attendees in that category. If you believe you can demonstrate why that is or is likely to be the case please do share. Otherwise I think we can only conclude that your assertion was at best premature.
Live football does have systemic challenges going forward. The average age of paying supporters does feel like it is increasing year on year as younger people have more alternatives and either choose that Lg1 football is not that attractive or maybe get priced out. As football gets ever more available on TV, those drivers are likely to get more pronounced. In our geographic area, the presence of a number of Premier League clubs relatively easily accessible is an issue as is the reality that HW population is relatively more transient than many of our competitors.
Simply asserting that a price reduction solves this problem and would increase revenue either in the short or medium term feels easy to say but in reality not necessarily the reality.
I'm amazed that some people think it's good value for tickets and at the ground, merch etc... it isn't. Perhaps if some of those people went to games, they might agree
The Villa game is an interesting one isn't it? I agree with you that at 29GBP it felt overpriced for the casual fan, and yet we had thousands more casual fans show up than we normally do. I think the fanbase is out there, but the majority aren't going to come to AP to watch us play Crawley or Burton. If we get a decent draw at home in the FA Cup i'm sure we'll have 8000+ at AP.
My question is what steps we're taking to keep the casual fan more involved. Should we offer everyone whose first trip to AP this season was the Villa game a discounted ticket for a future league game of their choice? Or a buy one get one? What about the fans who came to Wembley a few months ago, the vast majority of whom were not STHs. Have we offered them an incentive to come back?
"there appears to be no real evidence that a reduction of say 10% in one or all categories would attract more than 11% more attendees in that category. If you believe you can demonstrate why that is or is likely to be the case please do share"
Do give it a rest.
It's perfectly reasonable to note that it's quite expensive to go to Wycombe now and even though we're doing well and playing good football attendances are going down. It is also perfectly reasonable to therefore suggest that perhaps people are staying away because it costs too much. And it's perfectly reasonable to suggest this without having carried out extensive market research.
Of course it is reasonable to suggest what ever you want. Stating something as fact when there is no evidence to support that assertion deserves to be called out. (In my opinion).
By the way home crowd (acknowledging my debt for info to @railwaysteve ) seems to be pretty static compared to last season. 4064 against Crawley, 4061 in the nearest non family day match last season ( Blackpool).
Wrong!
Hilarious that you back up your call for evidence with a post that is factually incorrect