Regarding the last statement about people not batting an eyelid - I have a huge chip on my shoulder about that exact thing and I don’t care who knows it.
During the entire Derby thing, and now with Reading it became apparent - particularly by those that spout the “football family” BS - that nobody knew and less cared how close we were to going under. What we had to get rid off, how our manager ripping down his own curtains for the training ground was a “good news story about plucky Wycombe” rather than a wake up call about how close were were to not existing, how we could only name 14 players including substitutes for a season or so.
So excuse me if I am not at the front of the “oh won’t someone please think of the Reading supporters” bandwagon.
The petulant side of me wants to say IDGAF about Reading supporters, but that’s not entirely true. I do care. a bit.
But I care significantly more about Wycombe Wanderers and that’s not going to change I’m afraid.
One of the first big Projects Rob talked about was a new state of the art training facility. I have spoken on here about where the heck that’s got to. Same with the Terrace plans. And the plans for the new road.
But you know what this deal does do - it ticks that first big project box off the list. Whether we bought one, or built one, the same sort of costs were always going to be involved. You don’t buy land, design and build a training ground with loose change down the back of a sofa. Honestly - where did you think the funding for any of the projects were going to come from?
The only difference between us buying one and building one is the timelines to completion. and it could be argued this is a better option, at a cheaper price than we could have built ourselves and it’s only 30 minutes down the road.
So the big questions for me, and it’s so big for me that whatever issues are going on in Berkshire pale into insignificance to me:
How is this Level of spending - and it will be required again for the other projects Rob C has mention - sustainable for Wycombe Wanderers?
what’s the 5/10/20 year plan?
What is going to be put in place so that whoever is funding this doesnt to a Dai Yongge to us in a few years time?
So, I am Sorry Reading fans, but actually IDGAF about you right now. For me it’s too late for me to worry about you.
I’m too busy thinking about and then hopefully trying (in some way) to make sure this doesn’t happen to us.
Interestingly Reading FC bought the land at Bearwood from a charity called Royal Merchant Navy School Foundation who had major financial difficulties.
At the time of the initial contracts it forced the closure of Bearwood Golf Club who then failed to exist due to being turfed out and having their club turned in to football pitches. The clubhouse still exists as part of the training facilities.
It took three years to get approval for the plans and in this time the Royal Merchant Navy School Foundation had to close the Navy school on the extended Bearwood site due to lack of funds.
In the year before the sale went through the charity lost £392000 on a turnover of £497000 and Reading FC got the site for a knockdown £4M.
Surely this depends on who (i.e. which company) is actually buying the training ground?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my assumption would be that:
If it's Feliciana, then it makes it incredibly unlikely Lomtadze can then go and take over Reading, as the Training Ground is locked into the same ownership structure as WW.
If it's AN Other company in the name of Lomtadze, then we simply should be terrified, as he can do whatever he wants with it, including turfing us out the moment another club takes his fancy (Reading or otherwise).
The language from the club's statement yesterday talked of Wycombe Wanderers buying the training ground, which makes me think it has to be Feliciana doing the deal. I'm just not entirely certain why that would be in Lomtadze's best interest though.
As far as I can tell, Reading FC don’t own the training ground so it can be sold by Dai to anyone he likes and only the goodness of his heart would mean he gave the proceeds to Reading.
I can see why Reading don’t want that as had he sold the ground and the club as a package it would seemingly be more attractive. It may be he does give some of the proceeds to Reading and that allows them to operate until a buyer comes in and then they manage with renting a training ground. We can assume that isn’t ML intending to buy Reading as he could buy it all now.
As far as I can tell the training ground isn’t worth much as anything but a training ground. I assume if it was Dai could have sold to anyone who wanted the site for something else.
So it must figure in our plans. Is it possible Rob has taken a loan to buy it (maybe for a lot less than £25 mill) and the loan will be financed by rent from Reading and other sports clubs along with us gaining by opening an academy and using it as our training ground? Is that remotely viable? Which might explain why he hasn’t got money to repair roofs and build roads but can borrow money for a project like this? Especially if it is ML money. He takes a bit of a risk in return for a new toy in being part of WWFC.
Might it be possible that there is some honour here in that an agreement will be in place for Reading to use the facility as tenants for an extended period? Dai gets his money, maybe even helps Reading survive with some of it and a new owner gets a club with somewhere to train, we get a place for an academy and somewhere to train and it isn’t a ruinous move for Rob and us?
Or am I clutching at straws here?
And am I right that WWFC can’t be moved from AP as Rob et al are tied to the ground on a 50 year lease? Or is that easily breakable?
The team you’re associated with gets a bump in its valuation for having a very valuable asset on its books.
The team your associated with gets a great training facility and may see a filip when it comes to being attractive to new players.
Perhaps use it to develop young players to sell (new revenue stream)
Perhaps rent it out to another local side as it’s too big for just WWFC (new revenue stream)
you have an excellent asset to put against funding for any other project (roads, stadium expansion, new stadium or even build another training ground in Wycombe so the travel is less, and then sell the Reading based site on again) so you’re not dipping into your own pocket all the time.
Maybe just sell it for more than you bought it for and pocket the profit.
As I said in the first reply to this post - in a purely business sense this is an absolute no brainier for anyone with a connection to a football club, well actually any sports club, and limitless wealth.
The question isn’t and should by “what’s in it for ML” cos it’s easy to see what’s in it for him. The question is “what’s in it for Wycombe Wanderers for the long term?”
The only thing I can think of as to why it might make sense for ML to come at this "project" from the WWFC angle, is the level of debt/asking price that may be involved in buying Reading?
Assuming he completes the purchase of Bearwood via WWFC then he now has a first class training facility BUT needs to invest in Adam's Park to build the ground and surrounding infrastructure, hoping that success & fans will then follow (RC must have done a good job selling that vision!).
If he fancies buying Reading then he has the ground & fans already but at a (much) higher price to start with. I can only think that Reading must be in even deeper financial mess than we know as this is the route I'd take if I had £100M and wanted to get a club to the Premier League.
(* I don't have £100M, and if I did I wouldn't waste it on trying to take a football club to the Premier League. WWFC might have better facilities though.)
At the recent Tuesday night farce of a ‘Q&A’ the one sound bite that stood out was Rob calling our potential new board member “my friend”. Lomtadze may be many things but that description of their relationship struck me as having developed surprisingly quickly. Rob is astute and I imagine professionally sceptical of flattery and deception. But I just have a niggle that he might be being played like an old balalaika by his new mate who is used to competing in a wild commercial environment with somewhat ‘flexible’ rules of engagement.
If I was that ruthless operator I’d be taking circumstantial advantage and changing tack to buy a club with a bigger fan base, better ground and deeper infrastructure than we at Wycombe can offer. Given EFL ‘right and proper’ perimeters I might look to deploy a stalking horse to circumvent those constraints. I trust that isn’t Rob.
I think you need to sub in "front man" for "stalking horse" but yes, this is exactly the issue.
People have picked me up before for describing Rob Couhig as merely a small-town lawyer with limited resources, but while the relative merits of New Orleans and Stoke on Trent are a legitimate matter of debate, I stand by my general concern.
If I were a betting man I know which one of Rob Couhig and Mikhail Lomtadze I'd be putting money on to both be masterminding this and be more ruthless in protecting his interests - and it ain't the former Republican candidate for mayor of one of the most liberal cities in the south.
I expect to hear the term 'collateral damage' quite regularly in the coming months. And the effect of that is: it's Wycombe that'll most likely get screwed.
I do think we need some kind of urgent clarification from the club as to what the ownership situation is or is going to be.
It’s obvious that the Couhigs wouldn’t have the funds to bankroll the Bearwood project, so it has to be Lomtadze, who at this stage appears to have no formal role in the club, yet we are told it is the club that is negotiating with Reading.
When quizzed about Missy and Pete no longer being directors Rob said firstly that he expected others including ML to become directors and then later only that he hoped he would. If ML was interested in bankrolling the club to the Prem why is he reluctant to speak. Also if the access road and the new roofs and stands were a priority why switch to this now.
It might well be cheaper than has been mentioned but surely that would mean we are limited should we want to flog it. If we hit trouble at some point I can see us reaching out to a rejuvenated Reading to see if they want to buy it back and either being told to sling our hooks or offered a tiny percentage.
Can also see all the arguments about how it's just rich blokes playing and nothing bad against the club but it smells and is probably bad business too.
Hope Reading still have a club once this chump has finished his works and can't get excited about a flash training ground in the same way as when I was proud of us being able to perform better without the funding.
Has anyone noticed that the club have delayed the Wembley ticket tickets from going onto Public Sale and any new supporters from buying tickets to our home matches? I tested this out by making a new account and for all fixtures (league & Wembley) I was blocked and got the error messages saying it was only available to fans who made an account before the 6th March.
I think the threat of Reading fans coming to Wycombe to cause issues is very creditable but does that mean ALL of our games are going to become All-Ticket events now? Will our attendances take another hit because people will want to avoid any issues? I know I wouldn't want to take my son to an atmosphere if things will get aggressive.
Don't worry...they'll not be a bunch of numbskulls being aggressive just a few Reading fans laughing and throwing biscuits at @flymofrank . A bit of banter.
Honestly, if Reading fans, upset that they have no control over the actions of their owner, commit any violence whatsoever towards Wycombe fans because Wycombe fans are not controlling the actions of their owner....I don't know what to say.
We'll get a taster tonight when we see if it's 13 aggro blokes with placards or 1,000s and 1,000s of their fans all chanting in unison and causing a massive blockade of Hilbottom Road.
Although not even double yellows and 1,000s of fans on a midweek matchday make some of those businesses take a second of notice.
According to them, the BBC, ITV & Sky have made contact with them and might be present tonight. However, I've seen several people on twitter whining that they can't get there! 🤣
@glasshalffull you've got to admit the optics, as the media interest intensifies, of not giving us any information other than the bare minimum is bound to get even the most sanguine of us a bit jittery on here...never mind 'The Socials'. I'm a pretty level headed fellow and I'm shaking my head and thinking the Club have dropped a massive bollock which may include tomorrow's match being an unpleasant experience.
Reading fans are not necessarily going to be 'level-headed' about this...and as they cannot get at the billionaire deal makers hidden away smoking cigars...Wycombe fans and our games are possibly going to be the focus of their ire despite having no control over the situation ourselves.
I totally get the disquiet in the absence of more detailed information about this proposed sale/purchase, however I believe that rumour, speculation, wild theories etc will achieve nothing until that information is forthcoming. It’s possible that some of the speculation will prove to be accurate, far more likely that much of it will be completely unfounded. I prefer to wait and see and in the meantime look forward to a game of football tomorrow.
Comments
Regarding the last statement about people not batting an eyelid - I have a huge chip on my shoulder about that exact thing and I don’t care who knows it.
During the entire Derby thing, and now with Reading it became apparent - particularly by those that spout the “football family” BS - that nobody knew and less cared how close we were to going under. What we had to get rid off, how our manager ripping down his own curtains for the training ground was a “good news story about plucky Wycombe” rather than a wake up call about how close were were to not existing, how we could only name 14 players including substitutes for a season or so.
So excuse me if I am not at the front of the “oh won’t someone please think of the Reading supporters” bandwagon.
The petulant side of me wants to say IDGAF about Reading supporters, but that’s not entirely true. I do care. a bit.
But I care significantly more about Wycombe Wanderers and that’s not going to change I’m afraid.
One of the first big Projects Rob talked about was a new state of the art training facility. I have spoken on here about where the heck that’s got to. Same with the Terrace plans. And the plans for the new road.
But you know what this deal does do - it ticks that first big project box off the list. Whether we bought one, or built one, the same sort of costs were always going to be involved. You don’t buy land, design and build a training ground with loose change down the back of a sofa. Honestly - where did you think the funding for any of the projects were going to come from?
The only difference between us buying one and building one is the timelines to completion. and it could be argued this is a better option, at a cheaper price than we could have built ourselves and it’s only 30 minutes down the road.
So the big questions for me, and it’s so big for me that whatever issues are going on in Berkshire pale into insignificance to me:
How is this Level of spending - and it will be required again for the other projects Rob C has mention - sustainable for Wycombe Wanderers?
what’s the 5/10/20 year plan?
What is going to be put in place so that whoever is funding this doesnt to a Dai Yongge to us in a few years time?
So, I am Sorry Reading fans, but actually IDGAF about you right now. For me it’s too late for me to worry about you.
I’m too busy thinking about and then hopefully trying (in some way) to make sure this doesn’t happen to us.
Interestingly Reading FC bought the land at Bearwood from a charity called Royal Merchant Navy School Foundation who had major financial difficulties.
At the time of the initial contracts it forced the closure of Bearwood Golf Club who then failed to exist due to being turfed out and having their club turned in to football pitches. The clubhouse still exists as part of the training facilities.
It took three years to get approval for the plans and in this time the Royal Merchant Navy School Foundation had to close the Navy school on the extended Bearwood site due to lack of funds.
In the year before the sale went through the charity lost £392000 on a turnover of £497000 and Reading FC got the site for a knockdown £4M.
Surely this depends on who (i.e. which company) is actually buying the training ground?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my assumption would be that:
The language from the club's statement yesterday talked of Wycombe Wanderers buying the training ground, which makes me think it has to be Feliciana doing the deal. I'm just not entirely certain why that would be in Lomtadze's best interest though.
Lomtadze could become a director/shareholder in Feliciana?
As far as I can tell, Reading FC don’t own the training ground so it can be sold by Dai to anyone he likes and only the goodness of his heart would mean he gave the proceeds to Reading.
I can see why Reading don’t want that as had he sold the ground and the club as a package it would seemingly be more attractive. It may be he does give some of the proceeds to Reading and that allows them to operate until a buyer comes in and then they manage with renting a training ground. We can assume that isn’t ML intending to buy Reading as he could buy it all now.
As far as I can tell the training ground isn’t worth much as anything but a training ground. I assume if it was Dai could have sold to anyone who wanted the site for something else.
So it must figure in our plans. Is it possible Rob has taken a loan to buy it (maybe for a lot less than £25 mill) and the loan will be financed by rent from Reading and other sports clubs along with us gaining by opening an academy and using it as our training ground? Is that remotely viable? Which might explain why he hasn’t got money to repair roofs and build roads but can borrow money for a project like this? Especially if it is ML money. He takes a bit of a risk in return for a new toy in being part of WWFC.
Might it be possible that there is some honour here in that an agreement will be in place for Reading to use the facility as tenants for an extended period? Dai gets his money, maybe even helps Reading survive with some of it and a new owner gets a club with somewhere to train, we get a place for an academy and somewhere to train and it isn’t a ruinous move for Rob and us?
Or am I clutching at straws here?
And am I right that WWFC can’t be moved from AP as Rob et al are tied to the ground on a 50 year lease? Or is that easily breakable?
That last bits easy.
As I said in the first reply to this post - in a purely business sense this is an absolute no brainier for anyone with a connection to a football club, well actually any sports club, and limitless wealth.
The question isn’t and should by “what’s in it for ML” cos it’s easy to see what’s in it for him. The question is “what’s in it for Wycombe Wanderers for the long term?”
Pretty much agree 100% with @TheDancingYak.
The only thing I can think of as to why it might make sense for ML to come at this "project" from the WWFC angle, is the level of debt/asking price that may be involved in buying Reading?
Assuming he completes the purchase of Bearwood via WWFC then he now has a first class training facility BUT needs to invest in Adam's Park to build the ground and surrounding infrastructure, hoping that success & fans will then follow (RC must have done a good job selling that vision!).
If he fancies buying Reading then he has the ground & fans already but at a (much) higher price to start with. I can only think that Reading must be in even deeper financial mess than we know as this is the route I'd take if I had £100M and wanted to get a club to the Premier League.
(* I don't have £100M, and if I did I wouldn't waste it on trying to take a football club to the Premier League. WWFC might have better facilities though.)
At the recent Tuesday night farce of a ‘Q&A’ the one sound bite that stood out was Rob calling our potential new board member “my friend”. Lomtadze may be many things but that description of their relationship struck me as having developed surprisingly quickly. Rob is astute and I imagine professionally sceptical of flattery and deception. But I just have a niggle that he might be being played like an old balalaika by his new mate who is used to competing in a wild commercial environment with somewhat ‘flexible’ rules of engagement.
If I was that ruthless operator I’d be taking circumstantial advantage and changing tack to buy a club with a bigger fan base, better ground and deeper infrastructure than we at Wycombe can offer. Given EFL ‘right and proper’ perimeters I might look to deploy a stalking horse to circumvent those constraints. I trust that isn’t Rob.
Reading these last few posts I'm sort of re-assured and sort of terrified at the same time!
Surely the Trust, the club or someone have to explain what is going on properly in due course?
There won't be much they can say due to NDAs, I expect.
I think you need to sub in "front man" for "stalking horse" but yes, this is exactly the issue.
People have picked me up before for describing Rob Couhig as merely a small-town lawyer with limited resources, but while the relative merits of New Orleans and Stoke on Trent are a legitimate matter of debate, I stand by my general concern.
If I were a betting man I know which one of Rob Couhig and Mikhail Lomtadze I'd be putting money on to both be masterminding this and be more ruthless in protecting his interests - and it ain't the former Republican candidate for mayor of one of the most liberal cities in the south.
I expect to hear the term 'collateral damage' quite regularly in the coming months. And the effect of that is: it's Wycombe that'll most likely get screwed.
I do think we need some kind of urgent clarification from the club as to what the ownership situation is or is going to be.
It’s obvious that the Couhigs wouldn’t have the funds to bankroll the Bearwood project, so it has to be Lomtadze, who at this stage appears to have no formal role in the club, yet we are told it is the club that is negotiating with Reading.
NDA's in general (nearly?) always appear to silence the victim or the person who is getting the worst deal. Like a dirty secret.
When quizzed about Missy and Pete no longer being directors Rob said firstly that he expected others including ML to become directors and then later only that he hoped he would. If ML was interested in bankrolling the club to the Prem why is he reluctant to speak. Also if the access road and the new roofs and stands were a priority why switch to this now.
It might well be cheaper than has been mentioned but surely that would mean we are limited should we want to flog it. If we hit trouble at some point I can see us reaching out to a rejuvenated Reading to see if they want to buy it back and either being told to sling our hooks or offered a tiny percentage.
Can also see all the arguments about how it's just rich blokes playing and nothing bad against the club but it smells and is probably bad business too.
Hope Reading still have a club once this chump has finished his works and can't get excited about a flash training ground in the same way as when I was proud of us being able to perform better without the funding.
Has anyone noticed that the club have delayed the Wembley ticket tickets from going onto Public Sale and any new supporters from buying tickets to our home matches? I tested this out by making a new account and for all fixtures (league & Wembley) I was blocked and got the error messages saying it was only available to fans who made an account before the 6th March.
I think the threat of Reading fans coming to Wycombe to cause issues is very creditable but does that mean ALL of our games are going to become All-Ticket events now? Will our attendances take another hit because people will want to avoid any issues? I know I wouldn't want to take my son to an atmosphere if things will get aggressive.
Don't worry...they'll not be a bunch of numbskulls being aggressive just a few Reading fans laughing and throwing biscuits at @flymofrank . A bit of banter.
Honestly, if Reading fans, upset that they have no control over the actions of their owner, commit any violence whatsoever towards Wycombe fans because Wycombe fans are not controlling the actions of their owner....I don't know what to say.
We'll get a taster tonight when we see if it's 13 aggro blokes with placards or 1,000s and 1,000s of their fans all chanting in unison and causing a massive blockade of Hilbottom Road.
Although not even double yellows and 1,000s of fans on a midweek matchday make some of those businesses take a second of notice.
According to them, the BBC, ITV & Sky have made contact with them and might be present tonight. However, I've seen several people on twitter whining that they can't get there! 🤣
I hope the club have got the refreshment kiosks open tonight to serve the hordes of angry Reading fans descending on Adams Park.
If nothing else the quality of the food available will put them off returning.
@glasshalffull you've got to admit the optics, as the media interest intensifies, of not giving us any information other than the bare minimum is bound to get even the most sanguine of us a bit jittery on here...never mind 'The Socials'. I'm a pretty level headed fellow and I'm shaking my head and thinking the Club have dropped a massive bollock which may include tomorrow's match being an unpleasant experience.
Reading fans are not necessarily going to be 'level-headed' about this...and as they cannot get at the billionaire deal makers hidden away smoking cigars...Wycombe fans and our games are possibly going to be the focus of their ire despite having no control over the situation ourselves.
Surely you can understand the disquiet?
I dunno, the food that I got inside their stadium was rank! They might come back!
Can we open the car park for the Reading protestors tonight?
Without writing a thesis what’s the background to the Reading debt?
You want some??? Cam' 'ere you mahggy cahnts and I'll give ya some!!!!! AAGGHHH
If they hit me with a Hobnob, I'm throwing a Wagon Wheel back.
I totally get the disquiet in the absence of more detailed information about this proposed sale/purchase, however I believe that rumour, speculation, wild theories etc will achieve nothing until that information is forthcoming. It’s possible that some of the speculation will prove to be accurate, far more likely that much of it will be completely unfounded. I prefer to wait and see and in the meantime look forward to a game of football tomorrow.
Unfortunately Alan, as Aristotle (the Greek thinker not Burton Albion defender) would have it ‘nature abhors a vacuum’.
What a waste of a Wagon Wheel......
It was the first 'heavy' biscuit I thought of