Got to agree with @drcongo here, though I am no expert Mrs W worked in the NHS until about a year before lock-down, a Labour supporter through and through she was very disappointed by its decline under Tone and Gordy, with PPP disasters, out-sourcing, muddled and aimless reviews and massive investment in pointless middle and senior management levels rather than the frontline...of course the Tories have made it even worse...which is why there has been an exodus of experienced staff who would not go back...well, even if you paid them! ...but it was distressing for her to see it getting a kickstart from the people she voted for and we all had such hopes for.
It is entirely correct that the Labour Party is a broad church and should include people with a variety of views. It's great that some people in the Labour movement think the New Labour years were a tremendous success, but its also important there are people who think Blair's government was not ambitious enough and that has had consequences both for people's lives and future electoral success.
The factionalism of the current Labour leadership is too much for me though - I resigned my membership but still support the party electorally. They have failed to recognise that we are all on the same side and that it is through unity that we succeed - which is ironic given Starmer stood as the unity candidate.
I continue to believe the majority of the 2019 Labour manifesto is popular with the public, but Johnson is more charismatic than Corbyn, and was certainly more backed by the media (including by some who think of themselves as progressive.)
I too had always believed in a broad church in The Labour Party, but for me the rot started with Kinnock (purging Militant Tendency) and that drift to authoritarian uniformity gathered pace through the Blair/Brown years to end up where Labour finds itself today under Starmer; with lifelong members being suspended & ejected from the party on trumped up charges of anti-semitism, or for being critical of Starmer on social media etc. & shadow ministers being instructed not to support strikers/picket lines.
I had been a member of the Labour party from my days at Uni but left when Blair got rid of Clause IV as for me it then ceased to be a socialist party.
I seriously reconsidered joining when Corbyn became leader, a man I have known for over 35 years, as he espoused policies I could believe in and in my experience seemed to resonate on the doorstep. His mistake was to allow himself to be manipulated into dithering over Brexit and the nonsense, for the time, of a second referendum; that allowed the media to portray him as indecisive & lacking respect for the "democratic wishes" of the people (especially in the red wall seats). When that was coupled with the outrageous character attacks regarding anti-semitism, supporting terrorists & being a supposed Russian stooge (all easily refuted) it is no wonder he lost.
As far as I'm concerned @drcongo lost all credibility, when he started to throw slurs about 'fake socialists' and Starmers alleged betrayal of the Unions.
I'm heavily involved with the Uk's most high profile Trade Union. And can assure you, that the allegiance from the Labour Party to the Trade Union movement has not diluted. Sadly the big difference is how they they have to sometimes appear to distance themselves publicly, As the media machine continues to dispel the lies that Thatcher continually spouted that somehow Trade Unions are in collusion with the then Soviet Union.
I, like @drcongo, am concerned that Starmer is starting to irritate many in the union movement at all levels, the RMT ceased its affiliation long ago, McCluskey recently spoke out strongly against Starmer and the financial management of the Labour Party, there are growing calls in Unite (of which I am a lifelong member, ex branch & divisional rep) to disafilliate from Labour, Peter Stefanovic & the UCW have also been critical of Starmer particularly in relation to the treatment of Corbyn & the support of strikes, to name just a few examples.
With the advent of social media and the ability to effectively create your own media channels it is no longer necessary for unions to overly concern themselves with the right wing agenda & BS of most (if not all) of the traditional main stream media.
Labour needs to be getting out into the country, talking to people and campaigning on the things that matter to them and their organisations, whether that is trade unions, community groups, residents associations, local co-ops & CICs etc. It is too easy for the LOTO & his closest lieutenants to sit in the Westminster bubble and believe the sounds of the echo-chamber, actually hearing what people are concerned about and want and then acting on that is so much harder.
From an outside perspective the Labour Party has since the days of Thatcher found itself in a basically impossible position.
i think it has taken the view that it’s raison d'être (basically improving the lot of working people and everyone who needs the support of a strong state) is no longer a position that commands enough support to be able to win a general election on its core terms.
(the neutering of union power, the demonising of welfare “scroungers”, the decline of the ‘working class, and the control of the agenda by right wing vested interests all contributing - in my view - to this).
to counter this they try and appoint someone as leader who they see as ‘electable’ in this context (albeit quite how that led to Ed Milliband is hard to imagine and proves my political theory is as robust as my football ramblings).
interestingly I wonder whether the current shambles and crisis that the last 12 years of Tory (mis)rule (shamefully and misguidedly assisted by my party for 5 of those years) has now recreated the environment where the arguments a Labour Party should be making would now actually be listened to
Saw a quote from Frankie Boyle that Keir Starmer looks like he's a ghost 'he could run at a pigeon and it wouldnt fly off.' Made me laugh and I thought @drcongo would appreciate it.
As far as I'm concerned @drcongo lost all credibility, when he started to throw slurs about 'fake socialists' and Starmers alleged betrayal of the Unions.
I'm heavily involved with the Uk's most high profile Trade Union. And can assure you, that the allegiance from the Labour Party to the Trade Union movement has not diluted.
more importantly though, it is looking highly likely that the world is going mad and Liz Truss will be PM. She will be supported by the loony brigade like Patel, Rees Mogg Dorries and Steve Baker. They are going to do huge damage to the country in the next two years. Think of the damage they will do if they get seven. Then think whether your actions and those you support make that more likely…..
You say this, but if the Labour 11 unions pull funding there will be no Labour Party at all. Starmer made a big bet when he first took over that he didn't need membership fees so he could piss off as many members as he liked, and that he could court the same dirty money that has funded the tories for a decade and get rid of the unions. He's failed to get the money, but is ploughing ahead with cutting union ties anyway. You think "my" specific actions have the slightest effect on any of this? I may have a bridge to sell you.
edit: for the record, the thumbs down wasn't from me. I disagree with you, but I know it's a good faith argument.
There is, I suppose a question about Shadow Cabinet and responsibility, but there should be no censure for Labour MPs joining picket lines. They are Labour MPs after all. The problem is the Labour leadership is often embarrassed by their supposed closeness to the unions, in a way that being bankrolled by crooked tax-dodgers and Oppressive Middle Eastern princes or Russian oligarchs with dodgy KGB pasts buying influence and honours from Ministers does not seem to embarrass other parties. Or a Leader who refuses to accept he has been booted out because he is a serial liar. Laws to allow the arrest of people who protest noisily and plans for more laws to stop people being able to go on strike...the proud democrats who aren't that keen on democracy.
Comments
Got to agree with @drcongo here, though I am no expert Mrs W worked in the NHS until about a year before lock-down, a Labour supporter through and through she was very disappointed by its decline under Tone and Gordy, with PPP disasters, out-sourcing, muddled and aimless reviews and massive investment in pointless middle and senior management levels rather than the frontline...of course the Tories have made it even worse...which is why there has been an exodus of experienced staff who would not go back...well, even if you paid them! ...but it was distressing for her to see it getting a kickstart from the people she voted for and we all had such hopes for.
It is entirely correct that the Labour Party is a broad church and should include people with a variety of views. It's great that some people in the Labour movement think the New Labour years were a tremendous success, but its also important there are people who think Blair's government was not ambitious enough and that has had consequences both for people's lives and future electoral success.
The factionalism of the current Labour leadership is too much for me though - I resigned my membership but still support the party electorally. They have failed to recognise that we are all on the same side and that it is through unity that we succeed - which is ironic given Starmer stood as the unity candidate.
I continue to believe the majority of the 2019 Labour manifesto is popular with the public, but Johnson is more charismatic than Corbyn, and was certainly more backed by the media (including by some who think of themselves as progressive.)
I too had always believed in a broad church in The Labour Party, but for me the rot started with Kinnock (purging Militant Tendency) and that drift to authoritarian uniformity gathered pace through the Blair/Brown years to end up where Labour finds itself today under Starmer; with lifelong members being suspended & ejected from the party on trumped up charges of anti-semitism, or for being critical of Starmer on social media etc. & shadow ministers being instructed not to support strikers/picket lines.
I had been a member of the Labour party from my days at Uni but left when Blair got rid of Clause IV as for me it then ceased to be a socialist party.
I seriously reconsidered joining when Corbyn became leader, a man I have known for over 35 years, as he espoused policies I could believe in and in my experience seemed to resonate on the doorstep. His mistake was to allow himself to be manipulated into dithering over Brexit and the nonsense, for the time, of a second referendum; that allowed the media to portray him as indecisive & lacking respect for the "democratic wishes" of the people (especially in the red wall seats). When that was coupled with the outrageous character attacks regarding anti-semitism, supporting terrorists & being a supposed Russian stooge (all easily refuted) it is no wonder he lost.
As far as I'm concerned @drcongo lost all credibility, when he started to throw slurs about 'fake socialists' and Starmers alleged betrayal of the Unions.
I'm heavily involved with the Uk's most high profile Trade Union. And can assure you, that the allegiance from the Labour Party to the Trade Union movement has not diluted. Sadly the big difference is how they they have to sometimes appear to distance themselves publicly, As the media machine continues to dispel the lies that Thatcher continually spouted that somehow Trade Unions are in collusion with the then Soviet Union.
How will I ever survive.
I, like @drcongo, am concerned that Starmer is starting to irritate many in the union movement at all levels, the RMT ceased its affiliation long ago, McCluskey recently spoke out strongly against Starmer and the financial management of the Labour Party, there are growing calls in Unite (of which I am a lifelong member, ex branch & divisional rep) to disafilliate from Labour, Peter Stefanovic & the UCW have also been critical of Starmer particularly in relation to the treatment of Corbyn & the support of strikes, to name just a few examples.
With the advent of social media and the ability to effectively create your own media channels it is no longer necessary for unions to overly concern themselves with the right wing agenda & BS of most (if not all) of the traditional main stream media.
Labour needs to be getting out into the country, talking to people and campaigning on the things that matter to them and their organisations, whether that is trade unions, community groups, residents associations, local co-ops & CICs etc. It is too easy for the LOTO & his closest lieutenants to sit in the Westminster bubble and believe the sounds of the echo-chamber, actually hearing what people are concerned about and want and then acting on that is so much harder.
From an outside perspective the Labour Party has since the days of Thatcher found itself in a basically impossible position.
i think it has taken the view that it’s raison d'être (basically improving the lot of working people and everyone who needs the support of a strong state) is no longer a position that commands enough support to be able to win a general election on its core terms.
(the neutering of union power, the demonising of welfare “scroungers”, the decline of the ‘working class, and the control of the agenda by right wing vested interests all contributing - in my view - to this).
to counter this they try and appoint someone as leader who they see as ‘electable’ in this context (albeit quite how that led to Ed Milliband is hard to imagine and proves my political theory is as robust as my football ramblings).
interestingly I wonder whether the current shambles and crisis that the last 12 years of Tory (mis)rule (shamefully and misguidedly assisted by my party for 5 of those years) has now recreated the environment where the arguments a Labour Party should be making would now actually be listened to
Saw a quote from Frankie Boyle that Keir Starmer looks like he's a ghost 'he could run at a pigeon and it wouldnt fly off.' Made me laugh and I thought @drcongo would appreciate it.
There are pigeons like that on our patio every day @wensleydale and, as far as I know, I’m not a ghost yet.
Depends how fast you can run at them @micra they might have calculated they can just amble away from you.😉
Can’t even keep up with mrs micra these days.
As far as I'm concerned @drcongo lost all credibility, when he started to throw slurs about 'fake socialists' and Starmers alleged betrayal of the Unions.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/27/sam-tarry-sacked-labour-frontbench-rail-strike-picket-line-keir-starmer
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1552317087548424194
Such a strong supporter of workers and unions that he's sacking Labour Party members for showing solidarity. Me and my slurs eh. I'm such a bastard.
I'm heavily involved with the Uk's most high profile Trade Union. And can assure you, that the allegiance from the Labour Party to the Trade Union movement has not diluted.
Let's see what they're saying...
Starmer has sacked a junior shadow minister from the front bench for unauthorized media messages.
He hasn't been sacked from the Labour Party.
The difference in detail is quite significant.
"Unauthorized media messages" = speaking up for workers' rights.
It seems an unwise decision given the financial reliance of the Labour Party on the unions, especially with current reduced membership numbers.
Shadow Ministers have to follow the party line.
more importantly though, it is looking highly likely that the world is going mad and Liz Truss will be PM. She will be supported by the loony brigade like Patel, Rees Mogg Dorries and Steve Baker. They are going to do huge damage to the country in the next two years. Think of the damage they will do if they get seven. Then think whether your actions and those you support make that more likely…..
You say this, but if the Labour 11 unions pull funding there will be no Labour Party at all. Starmer made a big bet when he first took over that he didn't need membership fees so he could piss off as many members as he liked, and that he could court the same dirty money that has funded the tories for a decade and get rid of the unions. He's failed to get the money, but is ploughing ahead with cutting union ties anyway. You think "my" specific actions have the slightest effect on any of this? I may have a bridge to sell you.
edit: for the record, the thumbs down wasn't from me. I disagree with you, but I know it's a good faith argument.
The future’s looking very wobbly. Glad I’m on the home straight although it seems to be a very long one!
Better go before mrs micra eats my dessert.
There is, I suppose a question about Shadow Cabinet and responsibility, but there should be no censure for Labour MPs joining picket lines. They are Labour MPs after all. The problem is the Labour leadership is often embarrassed by their supposed closeness to the unions, in a way that being bankrolled by crooked tax-dodgers and Oppressive Middle Eastern princes or Russian oligarchs with dodgy KGB pasts buying influence and honours from Ministers does not seem to embarrass other parties. Or a Leader who refuses to accept he has been booted out because he is a serial liar. Laws to allow the arrest of people who protest noisily and plans for more laws to stop people being able to go on strike...the proud democrats who aren't that keen on democracy.
Other opinions are available of course.
Loving the absolutely trivial comedy posts in amongst the gasroom's heavyweight political stuff 😀
Was Tarry the last member of the Campaign Group in the shadow cabinet?
Some of us are nothing if not trivial @Malone.
The juxtaposition of@micra two posts reads as if Mrs Micra's waiting for him "to go" so she can eat his desert.
No , I was in the loo. mrs micra wasn’t.
Do my best work there.
You try to set the world to rights on a football forum thread and some on here reduce it all to tin baths, desserts and toilets. Terrible stuff.
From past experience we need to keep you away from bathroom related anecdotes.
He also called Corbyn a “haunted tennis ball”.