@eric_plant - as you say not for you to say how people should express their faith, but isn't it far more likely that for those who are concerned 15:00 should be a time for reflecting on something spiritual and monumental than lost in the noise and hubbub of football or anything else. Its not exactly like the Remembrance Day observance, but not dissimilar and in recent years that act has got longer and been more widely observed - no station announcements etc. At 11:02 life for those observing continues as before.
Time was very different in those days. What we call a calendar has changed several times, timezones were invented only a few years before Wycombe Wanderers, and hours in Jesus' day had variable lengths. Treating any specific time of any specific day from 2000 years ago as sacrosanct is simply ludicrous unless you actually also believe that Noah lived to be 950 years old.
@eric_plant Some fair observations there. Let me put it like this. I enjoy and celebrate my marriage every day of the year, but especially on June 12th, my anniversary. That date is significant because of what happened on it and the way we celebrate it means more than if we did those same things on a different date. That doesn't mean we place too much importance on the date of our anniversary, but it means we recognise it's significance.
That may well be true, DrCongo but you are missing the point. I dont know if that time is significant for many of the christian faith, but for the sake of argument lets say it is.
many things people do and believe in are illogical when you break them down to their constituent parts. When you think about it it is pretty illogical that any of us care very much that a collection of men born in points scattered around the country dressed in blue are more successful at kicking a bit of plastic into a defined area than another collection of men equally originating from points scattered around the country dressed in red. But care we do.
Cut through all the prejudice and irrelevancies and you get to this point.
IF
1) there is no material extra cost
2) kicking off fifteen minutes later is important to a significant number of supporters (lets say 5%), however illogical that importance may seem to the rest of us
3) kicking off fifteen minutes later makes no material difference to the rest
If you pass all three of those tests, why on earth would you not do so. Why would you choose to p*ss off even a small number without an offsetting benefit to others?
I don't want to get in on this debate, far too controversial for me. I just want to congratulate @floyd on this line is his earlier post on the subject:
I hope it was intentional but either way it made me laugh a lot.
Actually, on reflection I do have something to say. It seems to me quite weird that such a specific time of 3pm BST on Good Friday has such significance to anyone when Good Friday itself wanders around the calendar with no apparent rhyme or reason.
So the material cost is this: Should the club then bow to every single request that a tiny vocal minority makes so as not to be exhibiting favouritism? Obviously not. So your whole argument is irrelevant, the belief in magic invisible beings is the only thing that a moved kick off is about.
In answer to the above three points.
Chris- what difference does it make to you? Honest question.
Wig and pen - sorry dont understand your first point. Your second paragraph, with respect you miss the point. It may appear illogical to you, me and others to assign special meaning to that time. So what. If that moment in time is special to some people, it is surely their right to regard it as such. the rest of us then have the option to respect and if possible accommodate that deeply help conviction where it costs us nothing to do so, or just casually ignore it at no benefit to ourselves but causing distress to others.
Dr Congo - The simple answer is if it is a material number and to accomodate the request costs the majority nothing, where possible yes! If 99 people dont care and 1 does, then overall that is a win. if 99 people do lose and one gains, that would be a lose. I suspect for reasons best known to yourself you have very anti religion feelings - that is your right but maybe worth reflecting that you solve conflict by compromise not by hitting them back.
Rather oddly i seem to be leading on behalf of those who hold religious beliefs that frankly I dont. I am going to stop now and let anyone who does hold those beliefs fight their own battles. Goodnight
I'm just being Monsoony in that I like 3pm kick offs. Afternoon games kicking off at 3 is symbolic, if you like. Plus it'll be in line with any other games that are happening that day.
I say keep it at 3pm. Why? Because the religious folk that complain about the 3pm ko would, I believe, prefer the game wasn't played on Good Friday at all. Changing the ko is just the thin end of the wedge.
Doesn't policing after 6pm cost more? (A club has to cover policing for one hour after the official end of the game which is set by the football league as two hours after the kick off (or at least it was once upon a time))
I have more sympathy for those who don't want it played at all than those who want it moved 5 minutes. That said from I can see the Good Friday narrative is all about sacrifice anyway so I'd have thought that any follower would be more than prepared to forego one game of football. And good luck to them, but it certainly shouldn't dictate what the rest of us do and when we do it
I remember last time this discussion came up on the Gasroom, someone used that poem "First they came..." to equate not moving kick-off with the persecution of socialists, trade unionists and Jews in Nazi Germany. Incredible.
@bill_stickers said:
I remember last time this discussion came up on the Gasroom, someone used that poem "First they came..." to equate not moving kick-off with the persecution of socialists, trade unionists and Jews in Nazi Germany. Incredible.
My parents are Christian, I was raised going to church, and have had many Christian friends. I'd never heard about this issue before last year, and searching online I can find very little in the way of similar complaints (one article about a Boro fan from last year).
I get the impression that this is not about Christians being torn between their faith and their love of football, and more about a few individuals who feel modern Britain is too accommodating for other faiths and doesn't give enough attention to their own.
Comments
@eric_plant - as you say not for you to say how people should express their faith, but isn't it far more likely that for those who are concerned 15:00 should be a time for reflecting on something spiritual and monumental than lost in the noise and hubbub of football or anything else. Its not exactly like the Remembrance Day observance, but not dissimilar and in recent years that act has got longer and been more widely observed - no station announcements etc. At 11:02 life for those observing continues as before.
Time was very different in those days. What we call a calendar has changed several times, timezones were invented only a few years before Wycombe Wanderers, and hours in Jesus' day had variable lengths. Treating any specific time of any specific day from 2000 years ago as sacrosanct is simply ludicrous unless you actually also believe that Noah lived to be 950 years old.
@eric_plant Some fair observations there. Let me put it like this. I enjoy and celebrate my marriage every day of the year, but especially on June 12th, my anniversary. That date is significant because of what happened on it and the way we celebrate it means more than if we did those same things on a different date. That doesn't mean we place too much importance on the date of our anniversary, but it means we recognise it's significance.
That may well be true, DrCongo but you are missing the point. I dont know if that time is significant for many of the christian faith, but for the sake of argument lets say it is.
many things people do and believe in are illogical when you break them down to their constituent parts. When you think about it it is pretty illogical that any of us care very much that a collection of men born in points scattered around the country dressed in blue are more successful at kicking a bit of plastic into a defined area than another collection of men equally originating from points scattered around the country dressed in red. But care we do.
Cut through all the prejudice and irrelevancies and you get to this point.
IF
1) there is no material extra cost
2) kicking off fifteen minutes later is important to a significant number of supporters (lets say 5%), however illogical that importance may seem to the rest of us
3) kicking off fifteen minutes later makes no material difference to the rest
If you pass all three of those tests, why on earth would you not do so. Why would you choose to p*ss off even a small number without an offsetting benefit to others?
Who is to say what a 'material' difference is on point 3? I'd rather the kick off was at 3pm.
@floyd happy belated anniversary
I don't want to get in on this debate, far too controversial for me. I just want to congratulate @floyd on this line is his earlier post on the subject:
I think @DevC has hit the nail on the head.
I hope it was intentional but either way it made me laugh a lot.
Actually, on reflection I do have something to say. It seems to me quite weird that such a specific time of 3pm BST on Good Friday has such significance to anyone when Good Friday itself wanders around the calendar with no apparent rhyme or reason.
So the material cost is this: Should the club then bow to every single request that a tiny vocal minority makes so as not to be exhibiting favouritism? Obviously not. So your whole argument is irrelevant, the belief in magic invisible beings is the only thing that a moved kick off is about.
In answer to the above three points.
Chris- what difference does it make to you? Honest question.
Wig and pen - sorry dont understand your first point. Your second paragraph, with respect you miss the point. It may appear illogical to you, me and others to assign special meaning to that time. So what. If that moment in time is special to some people, it is surely their right to regard it as such. the rest of us then have the option to respect and if possible accommodate that deeply help conviction where it costs us nothing to do so, or just casually ignore it at no benefit to ourselves but causing distress to others.
Dr Congo - The simple answer is if it is a material number and to accomodate the request costs the majority nothing, where possible yes! If 99 people dont care and 1 does, then overall that is a win. if 99 people do lose and one gains, that would be a lose. I suspect for reasons best known to yourself you have very anti religion feelings - that is your right but maybe worth reflecting that you solve conflict by compromise not by hitting them back.
Rather oddly i seem to be leading on behalf of those who hold religious beliefs that frankly I dont. I am going to stop now and let anyone who does hold those beliefs fight their own battles. Goodnight
Holding it on the revised date I would expect our crosses into the box to be much better though.
I'm just being Monsoony in that I like 3pm kick offs. Afternoon games kicking off at 3 is symbolic, if you like. Plus it'll be in line with any other games that are happening that day.
I say keep it at 3pm. Why? Because the religious folk that complain about the 3pm ko would, I believe, prefer the game wasn't played on Good Friday at all. Changing the ko is just the thin end of the wedge.
Doesn't policing after 6pm cost more? (A club has to cover policing for one hour after the official end of the game which is set by the football league as two hours after the kick off (or at least it was once upon a time))
I have more sympathy for those who don't want it played at all than those who want it moved 5 minutes. That said from I can see the Good Friday narrative is all about sacrifice anyway so I'd have thought that any follower would be more than prepared to forego one game of football. And good luck to them, but it certainly shouldn't dictate what the rest of us do and when we do it
I remember last time this discussion came up on the Gasroom, someone used that poem "First they came..." to equate not moving kick-off with the persecution of socialists, trade unionists and Jews in Nazi Germany. Incredible.
that was a definitive new low. Can't quite remember who it was......oh hang on, yes I can
Had forgotten that - dreadful scenes.
Mrs W is a catholic, regular mass goer, I asked her about this. She did not even think it was an issue.
My parents are Christian, I was raised going to church, and have had many Christian friends. I'd never heard about this issue before last year, and searching online I can find very little in the way of similar complaints (one article about a Boro fan from last year).
I get the impression that this is not about Christians being torn between their faith and their love of football, and more about a few individuals who feel modern Britain is too accommodating for other faiths and doesn't give enough attention to their own.