So those of us who want change should just make our point once then continue to put up with the rubbish we're served up week after week? That's not how being a football fan works.
Your heart is definitely in the right place @Commoner, and there were some reasons why we might not have had the legs to see out the win we badly wanted. However, in my mind, the real reasons we aren't winning games are simple.
We don't score enough goals and we concede too many.
Like working? Because that's what usually causes me to miss games. And yes, sometimes there's other things I like to do - football isn't my entire life. Stop fan-policing.
One league win in fifteen is also a fact Alan. Matt Bloomfield, as manager, is no doubt handsomely rewarded wage wise and I’ve never understood that we should accept that he is learning on the job - to be manager he should know his job. Not too many jobs out there that as ‘leader/manager’ you are learning on the job. We are caught between a rock and a hard place. He will no doubt stay until the end of the season. I for one, am not sure of his ability tbh.
To put things into perspective, we have averaged more than a point per game so far and if we replicate that till the end of the season we will finish with over 50 points, the average needed to avoid relegation from League One over the past ten seasons.
MBs next acquisition must be a long term ‘like for like’ replacement for Vokes. He can’t play such a physically demanding role match after match any more. Sensibly rotated, he can still play a part for the team, but is running out of steam earlier and earlier. Keep playing him and he’s going to break down again. A good quality CF gives the team possession high up the pitch, and will bring our promising young forwards into the game. If RC is determined to stick with MB’ he has to back him with the cash to bring in the right forward with a proven goal scoring record. Someone who can be the fulcrum of the team for several years to come, the same as big Sam has been. If we can stick the chances away, we won’t need to go into these late game comas.
I don't understand this reluctance to have a manager who is learning his job. Surely experienced managers were once rookies who were given the chance to learn.
Not speaking specifically about Bloomfield here, more that I don't understand the argument that we should only employ an experienced manager. Our 2 most successful managers were both inexperienced when we employed them and had to learn on the job. As I say, I'm not making any particular point about our current situation, more just pointing out that having someone who is learning and hopefully improving in their role is surely something to be encouraged rather than seen as a weakness.
From memory -and I apologise if I am wrong- you chose not to watch us because you didn’t like the way we were playing. Disagreeing with you is not policing your opinions, it’s presenting an alternative argument.
It's a fair point, although we were on a real upward trajectory when Gaz left and I think we should have gone for a more experienced successor to try and sustain that.
I’m not happy with the last fifteen results, far from it.
I’m not happy that we’ve drawn two of our last three home games with the opposition equalising in added time but we haven’t lost our any of them.
Im happy we’re the only team to take any points off Derby in December and Leyton Orient post Xmas (they beat Pompey 3-0 at Fratton yesterday and are yet to concede a goal since Xmas).
I’m ecstatic with how we took the game to Bristol Rovers after going down to 10.
I’m happy we’ve only been defeated once in our last seven.
What is evident is that our back up players are either not good enough yet, whether that be lacking experience at this level or just not this level.
I don’t think we will go down but we’re going to have to fight hard to stay away from the danger zone.
Following a very successful manager is never easy. I’d like him to learn a bit quicker and stop going to a back 5, as we seem to concede everytime we go to it.
Given the play offs look out of reach, I’m happy to give him sometime to learn further, the trigger might need pulling but patience might also work. We’re 7 points above the relegation zone. We don’t have a god given right to be in the top half and I m not convinced this squad is good enough - mainly because we don’t have enough attacking potency and goalscorers.
We hit bottom in mid-Nov before recovering to lower mid-table.
The next season we almost got relegated with a dressing room that was considered toxic.
It was only after clearing out all of this and bringing in players who actually would run through a brick wall for the team (e.g. Jombati, Hayes, Jacobson) that we turned things around and were 30 seconds from being promoted.
That is surely the definition of learning on the job. Very few supporters in Apr 2014 thought Gareth was up to the task (19 months into the job). He was given time and proved everyone wrong and built an absolutely fantastic culture.
Would far rather Matt was given time vs bringing someone in who has either bounced around from club to club (and probably has no interest in building something with us over the long term) or another completely inexperienced manager where we would just have to start the process over again from scratch.
It is not a great watch at the moment, (compounded by the prices being sky high when the football isn’t great) but we’ve been through worse and for longer and come out the other side.
To be fair, I think it's on record that if the club could've afforded it, GA would not have been given time and would've been given the sack. Considering the club is now in a significantly better financial position (albeit not perfect, of course) I'm not sure the two circumstances are as comparable as this suggests.
I have been involved in football-and in particular with WWFC- long enough to know that you have to accept the bad times along with the good and we were spoilt in the Ainsworth era with those three play off finals. For a club of our size, surviving in the third tier is not to be dismissed as a given and we’ve had worse seasons than this in our 30 years in the EFL.
This is definitely a lesson in expectations. In 2018-19 we were briefly up to 9th and it was nosebleed territory. Now, we expect to be mixing it with Portsmouth, Bolton, Barnsley, Derby, Peterborough and other bigger spenders every season.
It shows just how successful we have been. Though I am disappointed at all the points dropped (in some cases literally, Mr.Stryjek) it feels like we are a few breaks away from having been solidly 9th or so.
I think this squad is good, but not sure about top six good when you look at what our competitors have. So, we are underachieving, but not as badly as some suggest.
Having been unable to shift the nagging thought in my brain, I have spent a little time extrapolating the results from the last 15 matches (in brackets) and the League One Table would finish as follows:
14 - Cheltenham Town (22 points from a possible 45) - 54
15 = Burton Albion (18 points from a possible 45) - 52
15 = Cambridge United (16 points from a possible 45) - 52
15 = Lincoln City (15 points from a possible 45) - 52
18 = Charlton Athletic (16 points from a possible 45) - 51
18 = Port Vale (15 points from a possible 45) - 51
20 - Shrewsbury Town (16 points from a possible 45) - 50
21 - Reading (18 points from a possible 45) - 48
22 - Wycombe Wanderers (11 points from a possible 45) - 45
23 - Carlisle United (9 points from a possible 45) - 31
24 - Fleetwood Town (8 points from a possible 45) - 29
Agree with all of that, with the one mitigation to add that the quality of the league is significantly poorer than previous seasons - which I think also has a bearing on expectations this season. It's noticable that of the teams above us, only two have beaten us by more than one goal, Lincoln in the second game and Bolton who were a pretty decent outfit. In the Ainsworth era we were still on the wrong end of a 4-0 on a fair few occaisions, but it doesn't feel like there are many teams capable of doing that to us this year. So I think the reason some of us expect to be doing a bit better is not just our own ability, but the relative strength of the others.
Comments
So those of us who want change should just make our point once then continue to put up with the rubbish we're served up week after week? That's not how being a football fan works.
Your heart is definitely in the right place @Commoner, and there were some reasons why we might not have had the legs to see out the win we badly wanted. However, in my mind, the real reasons we aren't winning games are simple.
We don't score enough goals and we concede too many.
Having better things to do on a Saturday than watching the team you are supposed to support is not how being a football fan works either.
Like working? Because that's what usually causes me to miss games. And yes, sometimes there's other things I like to do - football isn't my entire life. Stop fan-policing.
One league win in fifteen is also a fact Alan. Matt Bloomfield, as manager, is no doubt handsomely rewarded wage wise and I’ve never understood that we should accept that he is learning on the job - to be manager he should know his job. Not too many jobs out there that as ‘leader/manager’ you are learning on the job. We are caught between a rock and a hard place. He will no doubt stay until the end of the season. I for one, am not sure of his ability tbh.
To put things into perspective, we have averaged more than a point per game so far and if we replicate that till the end of the season we will finish with over 50 points, the average needed to avoid relegation from League One over the past ten seasons.
We shouldn't be content with the average needed to avoid relegation!
What is your solution?
Would that be a successful season for you, Alan?
MBs next acquisition must be a long term ‘like for like’ replacement for Vokes. He can’t play such a physically demanding role match after match any more. Sensibly rotated, he can still play a part for the team, but is running out of steam earlier and earlier. Keep playing him and he’s going to break down again. A good quality CF gives the team possession high up the pitch, and will bring our promising young forwards into the game. If RC is determined to stick with MB’ he has to back him with the cash to bring in the right forward with a proven goal scoring record. Someone who can be the fulcrum of the team for several years to come, the same as big Sam has been. If we can stick the chances away, we won’t need to go into these late game comas.
I don't think I'm allowed to answer that
Who said anyone would be content with that? I am just pointing out that talk of an imminent relegation battle could be a little premature.
I don't understand this reluctance to have a manager who is learning his job. Surely experienced managers were once rookies who were given the chance to learn.
Not speaking specifically about Bloomfield here, more that I don't understand the argument that we should only employ an experienced manager. Our 2 most successful managers were both inexperienced when we employed them and had to learn on the job. As I say, I'm not making any particular point about our current situation, more just pointing out that having someone who is learning and hopefully improving in their role is surely something to be encouraged rather than seen as a weakness.
From memory -and I apologise if I am wrong- you chose not to watch us because you didn’t like the way we were playing. Disagreeing with you is not policing your opinions, it’s presenting an alternative argument.
I made a slightly flippant remark about not going one weekend. Honestly not that deep. I want to see the team do well just like the next fan.
It's a fair point, although we were on a real upward trajectory when Gaz left and I think we should have gone for a more experienced successor to try and sustain that.
I suppose it's a balancing act.
Mousinho is learning his trade at Portsmouth, and has clearly improved the team. Bloomfield is learning and has taken the team backwards.
We have to decide if the trade off is worth it in the long run.
I’m not happy with the last fifteen results, far from it.
I’m not happy that we’ve drawn two of our last three home games with the opposition equalising in added time but we haven’t lost our any of them.
Im happy we’re the only team to take any points off Derby in December and Leyton Orient post Xmas (they beat Pompey 3-0 at Fratton yesterday and are yet to concede a goal since Xmas).
I’m ecstatic with how we took the game to Bristol Rovers after going down to 10.
I’m happy we’ve only been defeated once in our last seven.
What is evident is that our back up players are either not good enough yet, whether that be lacking experience at this level or just not this level.
I don’t think we will go down but we’re going to have to fight hard to stay away from the danger zone.
Following a very successful manager is never easy. I’d like him to learn a bit quicker and stop going to a back 5, as we seem to concede everytime we go to it.
Given the play offs look out of reach, I’m happy to give him sometime to learn further, the trigger might need pulling but patience might also work. We’re 7 points above the relegation zone. We don’t have a god given right to be in the top half and I m not convinced this squad is good enough - mainly because we don’t have enough attacking potency and goalscorers.
Gareth took over in Sept 2012 when we were 21st.
We hit bottom in mid-Nov before recovering to lower mid-table.
The next season we almost got relegated with a dressing room that was considered toxic.
It was only after clearing out all of this and bringing in players who actually would run through a brick wall for the team (e.g. Jombati, Hayes, Jacobson) that we turned things around and were 30 seconds from being promoted.
That is surely the definition of learning on the job. Very few supporters in Apr 2014 thought Gareth was up to the task (19 months into the job). He was given time and proved everyone wrong and built an absolutely fantastic culture.
Would far rather Matt was given time vs bringing someone in who has either bounced around from club to club (and probably has no interest in building something with us over the long term) or another completely inexperienced manager where we would just have to start the process over again from scratch.
It is not a great watch at the moment, (compounded by the prices being sky high when the football isn’t great) but we’ve been through worse and for longer and come out the other side.
To be fair, I think it's on record that if the club could've afforded it, GA would not have been given time and would've been given the sack. Considering the club is now in a significantly better financial position (albeit not perfect, of course) I'm not sure the two circumstances are as comparable as this suggests.
Can someone please remind me how I block someone?
The circumstances are nowhere near comparable. It’s ludicrous to attempt comparison.
Who is saying these things?
You can only block 5 unfortunately.
Pick wisely!
I have been involved in football-and in particular with WWFC- long enough to know that you have to accept the bad times along with the good and we were spoilt in the Ainsworth era with those three play off finals. For a club of our size, surviving in the third tier is not to be dismissed as a given and we’ve had worse seasons than this in our 30 years in the EFL.
This is definitely a lesson in expectations. In 2018-19 we were briefly up to 9th and it was nosebleed territory. Now, we expect to be mixing it with Portsmouth, Bolton, Barnsley, Derby, Peterborough and other bigger spenders every season.
It shows just how successful we have been. Though I am disappointed at all the points dropped (in some cases literally, Mr.Stryjek) it feels like we are a few breaks away from having been solidly 9th or so.
I think this squad is good, but not sure about top six good when you look at what our competitors have. So, we are underachieving, but not as badly as some suggest.
Having been unable to shift the nagging thought in my brain, I have spent a little time extrapolating the results from the last 15 matches (in brackets) and the League One Table would finish as follows:
14 - Cheltenham Town (22 points from a possible 45) - 54
15 = Burton Albion (18 points from a possible 45) - 52
15 = Cambridge United (16 points from a possible 45) - 52
15 = Lincoln City (15 points from a possible 45) - 52
18 = Charlton Athletic (16 points from a possible 45) - 51
18 = Port Vale (15 points from a possible 45) - 51
20 - Shrewsbury Town (16 points from a possible 45) - 50
21 - Reading (18 points from a possible 45) - 48
22 - Wycombe Wanderers (11 points from a possible 45) - 45
23 - Carlisle United (9 points from a possible 45) - 31
24 - Fleetwood Town (8 points from a possible 45) - 29
It did when Alan Smith was in charge!
Agree with all of that, with the one mitigation to add that the quality of the league is significantly poorer than previous seasons - which I think also has a bearing on expectations this season. It's noticable that of the teams above us, only two have beaten us by more than one goal, Lincoln in the second game and Bolton who were a pretty decent outfit. In the Ainsworth era we were still on the wrong end of a 4-0 on a fair few occaisions, but it doesn't feel like there are many teams capable of doing that to us this year. So I think the reason some of us expect to be doing a bit better is not just our own ability, but the relative strength of the others.
I can’t argue with that statement!