I have seen this vlog but I still get a vibe from him that that particular incident was an exception as opposed to the rule. Might be wrong but just the impression I get.
Players are no different to any other human. Some capitulate to pain, some continue well beyond what is sensible to their well-being. I'm pretty sure most don't even know what camp they are in.
During the Villa game yesterday, Steve McManaman was chuckling about how 'back in his day' players were always playing through some kind of pain. Yes, and that's probably a big factor in why so many players from that era had horribly short peaks. Injuries used to be so badly managed - Michael Owen a prime example.
For anyone who has ever merely bruised a rib and had that struggling just to breathe feeling, it's pretty phenomenal to hear someone has played with a broken rib.
Hearing players talk about how many injections they needed just to play the next game (Bayo included) is hardly an endorsement for player welfare. On the other hand I do wonder about certain players who seem to have niggle after niggle. Rolando Aarons was a player that arrived with the memorable quote ‘a great player but made of biscuits’.
@HolmerBlue : You could well be right in suggesting that Vokes probably contributed more in his 40 minute cameo on Saturday than Hanlan contributed in his last three matches. I can only comment (in the context of my question) on whether Vokes made a real difference to the team’s performance when he came on ten minutes into the second half. My own impression was that his presence made little difference and I was simply inviting @Brownie to say whether he agreed or disagreed with me.
Hanlan is just not cut out to play as a central striker, as numerous people have pointed out. He has struggled in that position, not least because he isn’t very good in the air. He is much more threatening picking the ball up in wide positions, wriggling away from ‘sandwich’ challenges by two or three defenders through sheer power.
@Brownie: I am certainly not “anti Voke”. I have too much respect for him personally for that to be the case but I have been disappointed (as we all have) that he hasn’t scored more goals this season. I’ve been disappointed that goals have been hard to come by generally in recent months. But the departure of Mehmeti, KaiKai, Mellor and Al-Hamadi has meant that we’ve been horribly short of backup attacking options.
Finally, I was fascinated to see the stats posted on Twitter and copied to this (?) thread regarding the correlation between percentage possession and match results (as applied specifically to our own results). As someone who likes to see the ball played mainly on the deck, I was obviously disappointed by those stats but it would be interesting to see them for a cross-section of other League 1 clubs.
@perfidious_albion: of course, it was Nigel who was having plans made for him. I was getting very irritated by the Co-commentator and wanted plans to be made for him. I had a feeling I’d got the wrong name!
Things have changed but not all for the worse, Will have been a badge of pride for those players but that isn't all that if you can't walk or can't remember it later on in life.
That is a truly amazing statistic. Unbelievable, really. I just can’t come to terms with it. If they’d merely survived relegation it would have been miraculous but champions? Surely it can’t be true.
And how many players did other First Division clubs manage with, I wonder.
It is true @micra crazy as it seems. David Gediss replaced an injured Peter Wythe up top towards the back end of the season and they played different full backs at various points in the season.
Went on to win the European Cup the following season.
The brilliant Dennis Mortimer captained both seasons and never got an England call up.
Forest did the same...but remember only Champions played in the European Cup then...home and away legs so fewer games.
I am sure many players played on with serious injuries...as players could be bought at any stage of the season and managers were quite ruthless with the crocked.
To be fair...even in the Glory Days...John McGovern League winner with Derby and Forest, and double European Cup winner was not rated by a lot of Forest fans! Muppet McGovern was how he was referred to by the footballing experts of the terraces that I knew! He must have been doing something right.
The other two in mid field alongside Mortimer winning the European Cup with Villa were Des Bremner who only ever got one cap for Scotland and Gordon Cowans who was uncapped at the time.
I've left it a few days before processing. Very disappointing end to Saturdays match.
I thought we were pretty good for the first 55-60 minutes. What we were lacking was a natural goalscorer to make those instinctive runs or be in the right place at the right time.
A number of balls flashed across the goal and we had no one in the middle. Chem has shown recently he can anticipate better than some of the others up front and he came close to getting on the end a few times.
What was clear though, is it is very difficult to score when you have so few numbers in the box. Quite often there was only one of Hanlan, Wheeler, DeBarr, Wing and Campbell in the box and four or five Morecambe. Unless we get men in the box we will not score.
The last 30 was really disappointing. I thought MB had played a masterstroke being on top for 60 and then bringing on McCleary and Vokes to push an advantage home. Unfortunately, both players had little to no impact. We were worse after they came on, which is unusual.
Morecambe significantly upped the tempo with 15-20 to go and we struggled to live with there gung ho approach. They scored a slightly fortuitous goal but it was excellently despatched by Stockton in a flash.
Saturday was a good example about what I hate about passing football. It might look nice and appealing but unless you get the ball and numbers in the box it is no better than route one if you do not score. If we are to give ourselves any hope, the centre mids, wingers without the ball and perhaps even full backs need to bust a gut to get in the box to increase the chances of us scoring.
On to tomorrow, where hopefully we can repeat last years performance at Cambridge. It's not over yet but it's certainly unlikely.
We can't have played a first choice XI much this season at all and our squad depth isn't and probably never has been enough to handle it.
Saying our combined first XI at one point in the season may have been as strong as it's ever been might not be untrue but it also sadly doesn't count for anything.
Yep - we were crying out for a striker in the summer and signed Mellor. We weren't to know he'd be a flop, but we did know by January and did nothing about it - apart from offload some good attacking options, albeit not centre-forwards (I don't think AAH was a Gaz CF, so I totally get why we sold him).
Mellor was one of the few significant 'misses,' by GA and Dobbo wasn't he? Signed with the fanfare of a first team player, he never looked up to it and hasn't done anything at Rochdale either.
Sorry, I’m not being funny but who is this proven goalscorer? I assume it must be Sam Vokes. But the fact is that he has scored only 6 (?) goals this season compared with an impressive 17 last season, which I think is the most he has scored in a single season during a 16 year career. There is clearly more to his game than just scoring goals - he’s certainly not a Greaves or a Lineker - and he’s as good as (arguably better than) Bayo Akinfenwa at defending corners and free kicks in our third.
A longstanding Wanderers fan pointed out to me during a telephone chat this morning that the big difference between Sam and Bayo is that central defenders bounced off Bayo (as often as not confusing referees and getting an undeserved free kick) and Sam tends to get nudged/bounced off central defenders, conceding free kick after free kick, often unjustly.
Based purely on the number of goals scored over a long career, the description “proven goalscorer” is fair enough. But 64 goals during ten years with Burnley and Stoke City, the central core of his professional career, is a very modest achievement. I think some of us expect too much.
Comments
https://youtu.be/IhNwfffZO2o
I have seen this vlog but I still get a vibe from him that that particular incident was an exception as opposed to the rule. Might be wrong but just the impression I get.
Surely you don't want players playing through actual injuries? Doesn't seem particularly wise.
Players are no different to any other human. Some capitulate to pain, some continue well beyond what is sensible to their well-being. I'm pretty sure most don't even know what camp they are in.
During the Villa game yesterday, Steve McManaman was chuckling about how 'back in his day' players were always playing through some kind of pain. Yes, and that's probably a big factor in why so many players from that era had horribly short peaks. Injuries used to be so badly managed - Michael Owen a prime example.
For anyone who has ever merely bruised a rib and had that struggling just to breathe feeling, it's pretty phenomenal to hear someone has played with a broken rib.
Hearing players talk about how many injections they needed just to play the next game (Bayo included) is hardly an endorsement for player welfare. On the other hand I do wonder about certain players who seem to have niggle after niggle. Rolando Aarons was a player that arrived with the memorable quote ‘a great player but made of biscuits’.
It were different in my day!
Aston Villa won the old First Division in 1980(ish). They fielded a total of just 14 different players all season.
Well ‘ard.
I suspect in those days they could not sit on the bench and still be earning half a million quid plus if they played or not @perfidious_albion
@HolmerBlue : You could well be right in suggesting that Vokes probably contributed more in his 40 minute cameo on Saturday than Hanlan contributed in his last three matches. I can only comment (in the context of my question) on whether Vokes made a real difference to the team’s performance when he came on ten minutes into the second half. My own impression was that his presence made little difference and I was simply inviting @Brownie to say whether he agreed or disagreed with me.
Hanlan is just not cut out to play as a central striker, as numerous people have pointed out. He has struggled in that position, not least because he isn’t very good in the air. He is much more threatening picking the ball up in wide positions, wriggling away from ‘sandwich’ challenges by two or three defenders through sheer power.
@Brownie: I am certainly not “anti Voke”. I have too much respect for him personally for that to be the case but I have been disappointed (as we all have) that he hasn’t scored more goals this season. I’ve been disappointed that goals have been hard to come by generally in recent months. But the departure of Mehmeti, KaiKai, Mellor and Al-Hamadi has meant that we’ve been horribly short of backup attacking options.
Finally, I was fascinated to see the stats posted on Twitter and copied to this (?) thread regarding the correlation between percentage possession and match results (as applied specifically to our own results). As someone who likes to see the ball played mainly on the deck, I was obviously disappointed by those stats but it would be interesting to see them for a cross-section of other League 1 clubs.
@perfidious_albion: of course, it was Nigel who was having plans made for him. I was getting very irritated by the Co-commentator and wanted plans to be made for him. I had a feeling I’d got the wrong name!
Crikey, is that the time.
@micra, I would slightly edit your Hanlan to review to say he's not cut out to be the "lone" central striker.
He would need to play off a Vokes / target man.
The front 2 is becoming a lost art form though largely.
Things have changed but not all for the worse, Will have been a badge of pride for those players but that isn't all that if you can't walk or can't remember it later on in life.
That is a truly amazing statistic. Unbelievable, really. I just can’t come to terms with it. If they’d merely survived relegation it would have been miraculous but champions? Surely it can’t be true.
And how many players did other First Division clubs manage with, I wonder.
It is true @micra crazy as it seems. David Gediss replaced an injured Peter Wythe up top towards the back end of the season and they played different full backs at various points in the season.
Went on to win the European Cup the following season.
The brilliant Dennis Mortimer captained both seasons and never got an England call up.
Different times.
Forest did the same...but remember only Champions played in the European Cup then...home and away legs so fewer games.
I am sure many players played on with serious injuries...as players could be bought at any stage of the season and managers were quite ruthless with the crocked.
The two Scottish Centre halves were rock solid. Allen Evans only gained 4 caps and Ken Mcnaught was never capped by the Tartain army.
Can anyone else think of another Scottish player that one the European Cup, but remained un capped ??
‘Fraid not.
John McGovern?
Correct Mr Vital.
To be fair...even in the Glory Days...John McGovern League winner with Derby and Forest, and double European Cup winner was not rated by a lot of Forest fans! Muppet McGovern was how he was referred to by the footballing experts of the terraces that I knew! He must have been doing something right.
The other two in mid field alongside Mortimer winning the European Cup with Villa were Des Bremner who only ever got one cap for Scotland and Gordon Cowans who was uncapped at the time.
1 cap and 1 European Cup, again different times.
I've left it a few days before processing. Very disappointing end to Saturdays match.
I thought we were pretty good for the first 55-60 minutes. What we were lacking was a natural goalscorer to make those instinctive runs or be in the right place at the right time.
A number of balls flashed across the goal and we had no one in the middle. Chem has shown recently he can anticipate better than some of the others up front and he came close to getting on the end a few times.
What was clear though, is it is very difficult to score when you have so few numbers in the box. Quite often there was only one of Hanlan, Wheeler, DeBarr, Wing and Campbell in the box and four or five Morecambe. Unless we get men in the box we will not score.
The last 30 was really disappointing. I thought MB had played a masterstroke being on top for 60 and then bringing on McCleary and Vokes to push an advantage home. Unfortunately, both players had little to no impact. We were worse after they came on, which is unusual.
Morecambe significantly upped the tempo with 15-20 to go and we struggled to live with there gung ho approach. They scored a slightly fortuitous goal but it was excellently despatched by Stockton in a flash.
Saturday was a good example about what I hate about passing football. It might look nice and appealing but unless you get the ball and numbers in the box it is no better than route one if you do not score. If we are to give ourselves any hope, the centre mids, wingers without the ball and perhaps even full backs need to bust a gut to get in the box to increase the chances of us scoring.
On to tomorrow, where hopefully we can repeat last years performance at Cambridge. It's not over yet but it's certainly unlikely.
A lot of our trouble this season can be boiled down to having only one proven goalscorer, who has spent most of the season not fully fit.
We can't have played a first choice XI much this season at all and our squad depth isn't and probably never has been enough to handle it.
Saying our combined first XI at one point in the season may have been as strong as it's ever been might not be untrue but it also sadly doesn't count for anything.
Yep - we were crying out for a striker in the summer and signed Mellor. We weren't to know he'd be a flop, but we did know by January and did nothing about it - apart from offload some good attacking options, albeit not centre-forwards (I don't think AAH was a Gaz CF, so I totally get why we sold him).
Good point @Malone.
Did Gaz and Dobbo ever play D'mani Mellor as a centre forward?
Mellor was one of the few significant 'misses,' by GA and Dobbo wasn't he? Signed with the fanfare of a first team player, he never looked up to it and hasn't done anything at Rochdale either.
Willis was our one punt so disappointing he hasn't played much, looked decent on paper but difficult to guess with injury recovery.
Sorry, I’m not being funny but who is this proven goalscorer? I assume it must be Sam Vokes. But the fact is that he has scored only 6 (?) goals this season compared with an impressive 17 last season, which I think is the most he has scored in a single season during a 16 year career. There is clearly more to his game than just scoring goals - he’s certainly not a Greaves or a Lineker - and he’s as good as (arguably better than) Bayo Akinfenwa at defending corners and free kicks in our third.
A longstanding Wanderers fan pointed out to me during a telephone chat this morning that the big difference between Sam and Bayo is that central defenders bounced off Bayo (as often as not confusing referees and getting an undeserved free kick) and Sam tends to get nudged/bounced off central defenders, conceding free kick after free kick, often unjustly.
Based purely on the number of goals scored over a long career, the description “proven goalscorer” is fair enough. But 64 goals during ten years with Burnley and Stoke City, the central core of his professional career, is a very modest achievement. I think some of us expect too much.