For me, what's gone wrong between the days of Jimmy Armfield and Graham Taylor on the radio, is that the broadcasters now pay multimillionaire ex professionals to have opinions that they're simply not equipped to have. Jermaine Jenas has to qualify everything he says with "to be honest with you", McMannaman is less articulate than a carpet, Richards is only there because he has a good laugh, Keane is a hammy pantomime act, Hoddle hasn't said an interesting word since his first one, and so on.
I'd rather have that bloke down the pub who shouts at the match on the telly than any of these bland pricks. Or even that bloke who sits outside the pub and shouts at the voices.
I think it was the World Cup in 1970 when they had the first ever pundits, or ‘panelists’. I remember “Big Mal” and “The Doog” being pretty controversial at the time, or maybe just ‘argumentative’... Wonder if they were any better or worse, in reality, to today’s crop?
My first draw to pundits it their personal experience, and then how they articulate their point. So for example I did enjoy Fowler and Keane yesterday at the Forest match.
Someone mentioned earlier about Keane (and I do understand why many don’t like him) and there was a terrific example yesterday.
Forest missed a golden opportunity and then Liverpool take the lead 2 mins later. He was asked “as a big team, what’s it like when a lesser team misses an opportunity like that”. This is a position Keane would have been in many times in lots of competitions, and as much as he loves Forest there was no hesitation in his response. A quick lean back and a smile, then something to the effect of “ah you know ones coming, it changes everything, 22 players on that pitch know they missed their chance and you got away with one and the teams react in polar opposite’s”. Fowler too gave the same body language. Souness, Hansen, Gullit (as much as he is a bit of a donut but was a phenomenal player) and the like would speak with the same experience and authority on certain matters too.
Players like Dublin, Jenas, Warnock were just never on the level of those two and would never have been so convincing.
In terms of having experienced 'the moments', you're not going to get better than top players, but they're rarely good analysts of the game on a tactical level - which is what our coverage is still so sorely lacking. It's a shame we can't have Emma Hayes on throughout the season. I'd like to see someone like Michael Cox be given a TV role, but I don't think the typical English viewer would ever give the word of 'outsiders' enough respect; there's a lot of snobbery.
I always think players who have had a bit of management experience have much more to say and a bit more insight. As I can now pause while I assemble beer and crisps and then just fast forward through the jibber jabber most nights I am less worried who the pundits are.
I met Jimmy Armfield through a friend of mine in the football world. What an absolute gent he was. Extremely knowledgable, articulate and humble.
As for likeable pundits I would say that John Motson would be in the category that is universally liked?
While we're on commentators, what do people think of Peter Drury? He seems to be revered, but I find him grating and feel like all his 'iconic' lines are scripted.
@ReturnToSenda said:
While we're on commentators, what do people think of Peter Drury? He seems to be revered, but I find him grating and feel like all his 'iconic' lines are scripted.
Commentators who have obviously scripted lines really bug me. I'm sure it's an incredibly difficult job to do well, there's such a fine balance to hold between describing the action, adding colour to what's happening, and just knowing when to say nothing at all - so I can understand why someone might prepare some lines in advance but if the viewer notices it then you've got it wrong.
I have no idea whether messers Catchpole or Parry ever prepare lines in advance, but if they do, they're obviously doing it right.
I'd last about 2 minutes as a commentator before saying something totally unsuitable for broadcast.
Yes, I presume you’re referring to the incident when he refused to accept that Leonardo had smashed Tab Ramos in the face (he actually broke his jaw). I was the commentator and I couldn’t believe that he didn’t see what everyone else saw.
@ReturnToSenda said:
While we're on commentators, what do people think of Peter Drury? He seems to be revered, but I find him grating and feel like all his 'iconic' lines are scripted.
Commentators who have obviously scripted lines really bug me. I'm sure it's an incredibly difficult job to do well, there's such a fine balance to hold between describing the action, adding colour to what's happening, and just knowing when to say nothing at all - so I can understand why someone might prepare some lines in advance but if the viewer notices it then you've got it wrong.
I have no idea whether messers Catchpole or Parry ever prepare lines in advance, but if they do, they're obviously doing it right.
I'd last about 2 minutes as a commentator before saying something totally unsuitable for broadcast.
Most commentators do their research and make note of various statistics and I’m sure that some do indeed dream up phrases they try to shoehorn into their commentary. Personally, the only thing I script is the team news because that has to be accurately timed to complement the on screen graphics.
Yes, I presume you’re referring to the incident when he refused to accept that Leonardo had smashed Tab Ramos in the face (he actually broke his jaw). I was the commentator and I couldn’t believe that he didn’t see what everyone else saw.
Yes it’s funny the bits you remember from yesteryear. The other notable thing I remember from USA 94 for example was John Aldridge having a complete benny at the 4th official when there was a delay in him coming on as a sub. Happy memories!!!
@eric_plant said:
Have you ever thought about writing a book about your time in football reporting? You must have a lot of stories to tell
I actually made a start on a biography in the early stages of the first lockdown after being persuaded to do so by a former colleague Mike Ingham who had just had his own book published. However, I lost interest once the football season resumed and I’ve never written a word of it since. Still time (I hope!) now that my health is improving after having a major op.
Keegan claiming that Ramos had gone down a bit too easily for his liking, whilst his jaw was hanging off and the replays confirmed one of the worst elbows you're ever likely to see.
Yes, I presume you’re referring to the incident when he refused to accept that Leonardo had smashed Tab Ramos in the face (he actually broke his jaw). I was the commentator and I couldn’t believe that he didn’t see what everyone else saw.
Yes it’s funny the bits you remember from yesteryear. The other notable thing I remember from USA 94 for example was John Aldridge having a complete benny at the 4th official when there was a delay in him coming on as a sub. Happy memories!!!
The heat plays havoc with some people's emotions.
We had a work trip to some London indoor pitch set to simulate Brazilian rain forest heat and humidity.
Boy were people getting irate
@eric_plant said:
Have you ever thought about writing a book about your time in football reporting? You must have a lot of stories to tell
I actually made a start on a biography in the early stages of the first lockdown after being persuaded to do so by a former colleague Mike Ingham who had just had his own book published. However, I lost interest once the football season resumed and I’ve never written a word of it since. Still time (I hope!) now that my health is improving after having a major op.
All the best with the recovery.
Mike Ingham is another of the radio commentators I revere, along with Ron and Peter Jones and many of the current lot.
Used to really like Alan Green as well until he started becoming relentlessly negative during every match making it seem like it was a chore for him to have to be there.
Comments
For me, what's gone wrong between the days of Jimmy Armfield and Graham Taylor on the radio, is that the broadcasters now pay multimillionaire ex professionals to have opinions that they're simply not equipped to have. Jermaine Jenas has to qualify everything he says with "to be honest with you", McMannaman is less articulate than a carpet, Richards is only there because he has a good laugh, Keane is a hammy pantomime act, Hoddle hasn't said an interesting word since his first one, and so on.
I'd rather have that bloke down the pub who shouts at the match on the telly than any of these bland pricks. Or even that bloke who sits outside the pub and shouts at the voices.
Agree apart from Hoddle, who actually does know what he's talking about. I'm still waiting for BT to introduce the McManamute button.
I'm not shouting at voices, just shouting
Oh, worst combo: Matterface and Dixon. #justice4tyldesley
@drcongo exactly him! Sky have no shame though, honestly how the fuck is he still employable?
I think it was the World Cup in 1970 when they had the first ever pundits, or ‘panelists’. I remember “Big Mal” and “The Doog” being pretty controversial at the time, or maybe just ‘argumentative’... Wonder if they were any better or worse, in reality, to today’s crop?
My first draw to pundits it their personal experience, and then how they articulate their point. So for example I did enjoy Fowler and Keane yesterday at the Forest match.
Someone mentioned earlier about Keane (and I do understand why many don’t like him) and there was a terrific example yesterday.
Forest missed a golden opportunity and then Liverpool take the lead 2 mins later. He was asked “as a big team, what’s it like when a lesser team misses an opportunity like that”. This is a position Keane would have been in many times in lots of competitions, and as much as he loves Forest there was no hesitation in his response. A quick lean back and a smile, then something to the effect of “ah you know ones coming, it changes everything, 22 players on that pitch know they missed their chance and you got away with one and the teams react in polar opposite’s”. Fowler too gave the same body language. Souness, Hansen, Gullit (as much as he is a bit of a donut but was a phenomenal player) and the like would speak with the same experience and authority on certain matters too.
Players like Dublin, Jenas, Warnock were just never on the level of those two and would never have been so convincing.
In terms of having experienced 'the moments', you're not going to get better than top players, but they're rarely good analysts of the game on a tactical level - which is what our coverage is still so sorely lacking. It's a shame we can't have Emma Hayes on throughout the season. I'd like to see someone like Michael Cox be given a TV role, but I don't think the typical English viewer would ever give the word of 'outsiders' enough respect; there's a lot of snobbery.
I always think players who have had a bit of management experience have much more to say and a bit more insight. As I can now pause while I assemble beer and crisps and then just fast forward through the jibber jabber most nights I am less worried who the pundits are.
Pat Nevin never fails to impress me on the rare occasions I’ve seen him and I’ve always found Steven Warnock succinctly articulate.
Nevin is good on the radio
I like it when Keane is on, just for entertainment value. Hated Neville as a player but I think he's a great pundit, not so keen on Carragher
I think the Mark Pougatch interview with Jimmy Armfield is still on BBC Sounds, called a football gentleman or something like that.
It’s really good.
I met Jimmy Armfield through a friend of mine in the football world. What an absolute gent he was. Extremely knowledgable, articulate and humble.
As for likeable pundits I would say that John Motson would be in the category that is universally liked?
Doing Motty a disservice calling him a pundit!
You're probably right there amigo.
While we're on commentators, what do people think of Peter Drury? He seems to be revered, but I find him grating and feel like all his 'iconic' lines are scripted.
Brian Moore was the main man for me, commentary wise.
Commentators who have obviously scripted lines really bug me. I'm sure it's an incredibly difficult job to do well, there's such a fine balance to hold between describing the action, adding colour to what's happening, and just knowing when to say nothing at all - so I can understand why someone might prepare some lines in advance but if the viewer notices it then you've got it wrong.
I have no idea whether messers Catchpole or Parry ever prepare lines in advance, but if they do, they're obviously doing it right.
I'd last about 2 minutes as a commentator before saying something totally unsuitable for broadcast.
Dan Maskell had the art of when to say nothing.
@glasshalffull what about Kevin Keegan as a co-commentator in 1994?
Yes, I presume you’re referring to the incident when he refused to accept that Leonardo had smashed Tab Ramos in the face (he actually broke his jaw). I was the commentator and I couldn’t believe that he didn’t see what everyone else saw.
Most commentators do their research and make note of various statistics and I’m sure that some do indeed dream up phrases they try to shoehorn into their commentary. Personally, the only thing I script is the team news because that has to be accurately timed to complement the on screen graphics.
Have you ever thought about writing a book about your time in football reporting? You must have a lot of stories to tell
Yes it’s funny the bits you remember from yesteryear. The other notable thing I remember from USA 94 for example was John Aldridge having a complete benny at the 4th official when there was a delay in him coming on as a sub. Happy memories!!!
I actually made a start on a biography in the early stages of the first lockdown after being persuaded to do so by a former colleague Mike Ingham who had just had his own book published. However, I lost interest once the football season resumed and I’ve never written a word of it since. Still time (I hope!) now that my health is improving after having a major op.
I remember that Tab Ramos/Leonardo thing so well.
Keegan claiming that Ramos had gone down a bit too easily for his liking, whilst his jaw was hanging off and the replays confirmed one of the worst elbows you're ever likely to see.
Alan Parry just flabbergasted at Keegan's view
The heat plays havoc with some people's emotions.
We had a work trip to some London indoor pitch set to simulate Brazilian rain forest heat and humidity.
Boy were people getting irate
Sorry to hear about another gasroomer with a health problem @glasshalffull get well soon! Are we all getting too.old for this exciting football lark?
All the best with the recovery.
Mike Ingham is another of the radio commentators I revere, along with Ron and Peter Jones and many of the current lot.
Used to really like Alan Green as well until he started becoming relentlessly negative during every match making it seem like it was a chore for him to have to be there.