Besides some of the great points above, there are a couple of further aspects of VAR that means it could never work for me.
Spirit of the game v Letter of the law. When Max dropped the ball and Barnsley scored, I was never annoyed at the ref even though the decision was later considered to be incorrect according to the letter of the law. For me, it was because the silly behaviour went against the spirit of the game. In the same way, a toe offside is offside according to the letter of the law, but never feels right according to the spirit of the game. Football is not supposed to be a scientific examination of seven angles in a studio away from the stadium.
50-50s. VAR will always be controversial because so many fouls and handballs in football are open to the debate, as there are unlimited body positions and types of contact that make many situations unique. The problem with VAR is that in the many situations of more murky decisions, the 50% (or so) who disagree with the final decision will say "You mean you actually had a SECOND LOOK at that and still allowed/disallowed it?" It is much more controversial than a single decision, as a result.
Linesman makes a decision on pitch. Unless it's obviously wrong based on a replay being viewed in real time and judged with the naked eye then the decision stands.
That would be far better for fans (both live and on TV), while weeding out the occasional major cock up.
Not sure the first bit is true to be honest. It rather depends on who scored the goal. If it was your team, you complain if the goal was chalked off even if the player is ten yards offside, if the other team if objectively clearly on side.
Reality is that football is a low scoring game and hence one goal correctly awarded or incorrectly awarded makes a massive difference to the game. However the offside law is defined, it is a matter of fact whether or not the player was in an offside position at the relevant moment (whether he was interfering with play or whatever the current terminology remains subjective). Sometimes that fact will be very marginal but it remains a fact. If we have a way of better establishing that fact (albeit not yet with 100% certainty) for me that has to be a good thing and better than the previous system where on really tight decisions, the linesman essentially had to guess.
If you introduce a system why we go with the linesman's decision being accepted unless he has made an obvious error, then we inevitably have to define what is an "obvious error" and then however we define it we have marginal calls whether the linesman's erroneous call was just in the bounds of acceptability or just into the "obvious error category" allowing the wrong decision to be changed. So for example if we define "obvious error" as being more than two yards offside, we have uncertainty whether the player was 1.99 yards offside or 2.01 yards.
If you don't even for a second think "that's offside" in normal speed viewing, then those aren't the sort of goals that should be ruled out.
Some failed creative artworker getting their electronic ruler out on a specific frame of play to see what body part is a mm ahead of the defender is real nonsense.
Think Gary Lineker said that back in his day level was actually offside, which sounds even madder in fairness, but he'd go for "daylight" being offside.
Although that would bring all manner of new marginal calls.
Another major flaw in VAR is that it can't check that a corner has been awarded correctly (well, if can, but it doesn't). If a team scores from an illegitimately awarded corner, it can be disallowed for a foul but not for the original corner decision being incorrect. This happened in the City - Villa League Cup final a few years ago.
But the times an assistant ref/lino whatever your preferred term is makes a mistake that is wrong by such a margin of 2 yards is so astonishingly small you’d virtually never need VAR so do away with it and live with the onfield decisions
Yes it happened to us against Derby, but I cannot honestly think of another that clearly wrong.
Goal line technology is a matter of fact in the most important part of the pitch, and that should be all that is implemented.
You have to be able to celebrate a goal and let your emotions run wild. Can anyone think the 1979 FA Cup Final Arsenal v Man United would have been improved by VAR delays for the goal checks (87th, 88th & 89th minute).
I knew someone at the game, so busy still celebrating United's 88th minute equaliser they didn't know Arsenal had scored the winner.
They couldn't understand why the game wasn't going to extra time, 🤣.
Famous decision that cost Leeds the title against West Brom has about 20 yards offside.
the point was not the quantum itself but the fact that if you are only going to allow obvious error to be overturned, then you have to define what constitutes obvious error and then you will have cases bang on the line of that definition.
offside is a matter of fact too (apart from the interfering element). It’s just hard to determine that fact.
Really? Seems mad that European leagues aren't all working to the same rule book.
Could really backfire on us when Jordan Henderson runs off the last shoulder of the defender to slot home the winner in Berlin, only to find he was working to the wrong offside rule.
The many camera angles in the PL hurt the situation too. The limited cameras at our level often lead to a shrug and a guess as to whether the referee was correct or not. The 845 camera angles in the PL add fuel to the outrage fire.
Not only abolish VAR but allow pass backs to the keeper, in fact let’s return to the original rules that allowed the keeper to handle anywhere in his own half. Oh and we can return to calling penalties the “kick of death” . Vincent Price could ad-lib something about it for Sky.
I think Wolves argument captures much of that above but additionally the whole concept of having to amend various rules in the first place to make the whole thing seem like it has a chance is probably where it started to go wrong.
Is it an effective and appropriate tool? Does it bring certainty without removing all that makes the game enjoyable? Neither? Get it in the bin.
Not sure if people have mentioned how much it undermines refs as well as defences too. People know in every game, and in high profile ones more than others, that whatever happens might not be what happens, that has to lead to refs leaving difficult choices for others and players thinking that it's worth a few fouls as it's random what you'll be judged for or that even if they can produce something special late on some idiot would take it away anyway.
I'm sure our fine (and other) legal types on here are aware of the concept of not doing anything to harm. If a ref makes a mistake it's usually honest and was the status quo for over a century. If a ref has gone easy because we changed the process and he thinks the guy who has seen the replay disagrees with him, or we get a different result because we had to amend the rules we aren't helping anyone.
That and the whole double drama of argument over the original decision not being resolved but being doubled so we can debate vars decision too was not how it was sold and only benefits dull broadcasters.
Comments
Besides some of the great points above, there are a couple of further aspects of VAR that means it could never work for me.
Boooo.
Linesman makes a decision on pitch. Unless it's obviously wrong based on a replay being viewed in real time and judged with the naked eye then the decision stands.
That would be far better for fans (both live and on TV), while weeding out the occasional major cock up.
Not sure the first bit is true to be honest. It rather depends on who scored the goal. If it was your team, you complain if the goal was chalked off even if the player is ten yards offside, if the other team if objectively clearly on side.
Reality is that football is a low scoring game and hence one goal correctly awarded or incorrectly awarded makes a massive difference to the game. However the offside law is defined, it is a matter of fact whether or not the player was in an offside position at the relevant moment (whether he was interfering with play or whatever the current terminology remains subjective). Sometimes that fact will be very marginal but it remains a fact. If we have a way of better establishing that fact (albeit not yet with 100% certainty) for me that has to be a good thing and better than the previous system where on really tight decisions, the linesman essentially had to guess.
If you introduce a system why we go with the linesman's decision being accepted unless he has made an obvious error, then we inevitably have to define what is an "obvious error" and then however we define it we have marginal calls whether the linesman's erroneous call was just in the bounds of acceptability or just into the "obvious error category" allowing the wrong decision to be changed. So for example if we define "obvious error" as being more than two yards offside, we have uncertainty whether the player was 1.99 yards offside or 2.01 yards.
@malone absolutely nails it with
“There's very little worse in football than a fan celebrating a goal in the moment.
Then suddenly thinking, oh hang on, it's not a marginal VAR check is it.”
This alone is why I’d bin it. The spontaneity of a goal sets apart football from so many higher scoring sports.
"They're celebrating like they might have just won the World Cup if the VAR check goes their way."
I was at a game with VAR and it went like this.
Goal scored - the team's fans went wild.
VAR check - other team's fans went mad.
Ages later - goal confirmed - very muted from the original team's fans.
An absolute thief of joy all round.
Your last sentence nails it as well. I'm a fan of lots of sports, but football is the best solely because a goal feels like a proper event
I have to say I hear this comment but I have never seen it play out this way.
What I have seen is a goal is scored and everyone celebrates
Then (as there often can be now) is that little thought hang on a minute has the linesman put his flag up, has it been referred to VAR? I'll check.
If not has been referred to VAR both the Goal scoring fans and the goal conceding fans get a little period of nail biting anxiety
Then the decision comes through and which ever side the decision favours get to celebrate as if its another goal.
That I have to say is what I have seen not the "hyped" version.
"Some people are on the pitch! They think it's all over! It might be now!"
If you don't even for a second think "that's offside" in normal speed viewing, then those aren't the sort of goals that should be ruled out.
Some failed creative artworker getting their electronic ruler out on a specific frame of play to see what body part is a mm ahead of the defender is real nonsense.
Think Gary Lineker said that back in his day level was actually offside, which sounds even madder in fairness, but he'd go for "daylight" being offside.
Although that would bring all manner of new marginal calls.
Another major flaw in VAR is that it can't check that a corner has been awarded correctly (well, if can, but it doesn't). If a team scores from an illegitimately awarded corner, it can be disallowed for a foul but not for the original corner decision being incorrect. This happened in the City - Villa League Cup final a few years ago.
I think the Eredivisie have something like a daylight rule for offside, similar to the umpire's call on marginal LBWs if I remember right.
The daylight rule must mean a lot of goal hanging in night games!
But the times an assistant ref/lino whatever your preferred term is makes a mistake that is wrong by such a margin of 2 yards is so astonishingly small you’d virtually never need VAR so do away with it and live with the onfield decisions
Yes it happened to us against Derby, but I cannot honestly think of another that clearly wrong.
Goal line technology is a matter of fact in the most important part of the pitch, and that should be all that is implemented.
You have to be able to celebrate a goal and let your emotions run wild. Can anyone think the 1979 FA Cup Final Arsenal v Man United would have been improved by VAR delays for the goal checks (87th, 88th & 89th minute).
I knew someone at the game, so busy still celebrating United's 88th minute equaliser they didn't know Arsenal had scored the winner.
They couldn't understand why the game wasn't going to extra time, 🤣.
The Merseyside derby final in 1989 had a similar ending, didn't it?
Oh, that went to extra time. Still a classic!
Famous decision that cost Leeds the title against West Brom has about 20 yards offside.
the point was not the quantum itself but the fact that if you are only going to allow obvious error to be overturned, then you have to define what constitutes obvious error and then you will have cases bang on the line of that definition.
offside is a matter of fact too (apart from the interfering element). It’s just hard to determine that fact.
Even in your crazy version of what happens it sounds rubbish
In the real world, it ruins the moment of your team scoring a goal. We (nearly) all said it would. It needs to get in the bin
That’s exactly why the whole thing needs to be scrapped. Well argued Dev!
Really? Seems mad that European leagues aren't all working to the same rule book.
Could really backfire on us when Jordan Henderson runs off the last shoulder of the defender to slot home the winner in Berlin, only to find he was working to the wrong offside rule.
Can't find much more info, but it was something being tested https://m.thepeninsulaqatar.com/article/03/07/2023/fifa-to-test-modified-offside-rule-in-italy-sweden-and-netherlands
Imagine waiting to find out if Roy Essandoh's header was going to be ruled out for some obscure foul ffs.
Surely anyone that likes football can see that VAR detracts from the joy of the moment.
The many camera angles in the PL hurt the situation too. The limited cameras at our level often lead to a shrug and a guess as to whether the referee was correct or not. The 845 camera angles in the PL add fuel to the outrage fire.
Not only abolish VAR but allow pass backs to the keeper, in fact let’s return to the original rules that allowed the keeper to handle anywhere in his own half. Oh and we can return to calling penalties the “kick of death” . Vincent Price could ad-lib something about it for Sky.
We definitely need to go back to being able to shoulder barge the keeper when he’s holding the ball. Just for one season to even things up.
You tell us this after we let TJay De Barr and Killian Phillips go?
I think Wolves argument captures much of that above but additionally the whole concept of having to amend various rules in the first place to make the whole thing seem like it has a chance is probably where it started to go wrong.
Is it an effective and appropriate tool? Does it bring certainty without removing all that makes the game enjoyable? Neither? Get it in the bin.
Not sure if people have mentioned how much it undermines refs as well as defences too. People know in every game, and in high profile ones more than others, that whatever happens might not be what happens, that has to lead to refs leaving difficult choices for others and players thinking that it's worth a few fouls as it's random what you'll be judged for or that even if they can produce something special late on some idiot would take it away anyway.
I'm sure our fine (and other) legal types on here are aware of the concept of not doing anything to harm. If a ref makes a mistake it's usually honest and was the status quo for over a century. If a ref has gone easy because we changed the process and he thinks the guy who has seen the replay disagrees with him, or we get a different result because we had to amend the rules we aren't helping anyone.
That and the whole double drama of argument over the original decision not being resolved but being doubled so we can debate vars decision too was not how it was sold and only benefits dull broadcasters.
Dean Lewington has extended his contract with franchise. Would be fitting if his retirement coincided with their implosion.
It would be great. I had them in my pre-season accumulator to be relegated again, and it was going so well until Williamson came in!