You see it in non-league games now, and frankly the players just don't have the skill level to achieve it, so you just see endless giving away of possession in the final third.
I saw it at a girls U-10s girls' game in America, with my niece's team benefitting by scoring constantly from the other team's wayward short passes from kickoffs. It's like a bad addiction.
Good as it his destroying football games and i hate it,yes some refs are shit but i'd rather accept their decisions than some clown who gives an offside for a players toenail that is centimeters over the line it's jut a joke.
Agree but as usual there is a balance, constantly banging it forward didn't always work either and made some very average opposition centre halves look like prime beckenbauer as they restarted attacks after basically being handed the ball by ours under no pressure. Some of the standout Anthony Stewart masterclasses were great but possibly avoidable...and new Bayo's who can keep the defenders honest and win a good proportion of long balls fired from distance while being maekedare not easy to find
Think Blooms is getting the balance right after the failed experiments earlier on.
Surely unlikely to pass but agreeing to drop it even for 6 months would be really welcome by those who actually pay to get in. Really good statement from them tbh, not about blame but realisation that it doesn't fit well with live stadium sport, hasn't really helped with it's purpose and has added a load of grief rather than smoothing anything.
It's ok blaming the refs but they aren't going to be able to improve them significantly or replace them anytime soon and every additional rules tinker makes it harder for them.
Hmm, this is why kids get to the adult game not being able to do it .
I've seen kids football here where the attacking team has to retreat to their own half for goal kicks precisely to allow the team taking a goal kick to pass it out from the back.
I like that, and I must say kids coaching has progressed so far since I played kids football. Back then you'd just pick a big kid who could kick it the furthest to play at the back and in fact be told off if you "messed about with it" in defence
The emphasis now seems to be far more on actually coaching kids how to play and I think we're seeing the results in the national team
I get the point, but it feels a bit like there being a dearth of amazing adult guitarists because kids weren't trying to learn Jimi Hendrix solos at 9 years old.
Well not necessarily. We don’t have all the data that football clubs do. So it’s impossible to say. There are various knock on effects and chains of events which will get broken down frame by frame.
But simple logic tells us that if you keep giving possession away at a rate of 1 in 2 from goal kicks - you are at a disadvantage.
The other team has the ball, and will come at you.
But IF you retain the ball MORE from playing out, that is reduced.
Two scenarios - a team loses the ball 5 yards inside the opposition half vs losing it on the edge of their own penalty area.
I cannot believe any stats will confirm you concede more goals for every 100 occasions this happens for the former over the latter.
Passing out from the back has a place in the game but for me it’s gone too far the wrong way for the average team and in some cases even the very good teams. Spurs being a prime example this season of falling on their own sword.
Fingers crossed VAR is binned off. It was predictable that it would be shit before it was introduced. The only surprise is that it has actually been worse than I expected.
I could reluctantly tolerate video reviews for serious foul play and maybe penalties. But VAR for offsides has got to go, or be completely overhauled. The current system is absolutely atrocious.
Easiest way to solve it is to only allow four cameras at each ground, one in each stand and ban slow motion replays. Remove VAR altogether.
Then the pundits and TV will really struggle to show that the officials have made a mistake.
Alternatively, do what it was intended to do. Check for clear and obvious errors.
Fouls and handballs should only be shown in real time and changed if there was a clear error by the referee.
Offside rule should be adjusted. If any part of the torso is level with the defenders torso then it is onside. Due to stride patterns, using feet is ridiculous. Any player who scores or assists a goal who was offside during the play is offside - particularly the center forward who was three yards offside when the ball was played down the wing and subsequently taps it in. He has gained a lasting advantage.
The reality is that however you amend the offside rule, there will always be really really marginal decisions. Its unavoidable.
The reality is that on really marginal decisions, it is impossible for the naked eye to reliably make a judgement. The linesman has to essentially guess.
Its not a popular opinion at the moment, I know, but I prefer a system where we get as many decisions right as possible and hence support VAR accepting 1) that even with VAR we will not get to 100% right and accepting 2) that with many decisions (less so with offside) there is no right or wrong answer - judgement remains involved. VAR's role there is to show the referee what actually happened - it remains his job to interpret it and form a judgement - that judgement may remain a minority opinion.
One thing I have never got is the clear error argument or the umpire's call in cricket or the rugby equivalent. I get the argument not to have VAR at all in all those sports. If you have it at all though, then surely its best to go with the informed best decision even if its only a 70-30 chance the ball would have hit the stumps rather than going with the umpire who on those really tight calls is surely no better than 50-50.
You either fit sensors to every player and every blade of grass, and totally automate offside, like with goal line tech, or leave it to the guys with the flag.
The Player review has clouded it slightly but most players and fans are happy with the jeopardy it brings because the rules are applied consistently and there is a significant amount of respect across all stakeholders in the game for Umpires and the role they play. This for me is the key difference between football and cricket.
@DevC The thing with offsides is that pre-VAR whenever there were marginal calls, absolutely nobody was complaining about the decisions. We all rightly complained about the Horgan offside against Derby because he was a good ten yards onside. There've been a few marginals both for and against us this season and they get a passing "from where I was sat" comment, often accompanied by "I was right inline with", but we're all happy to accept the lino's call if it's not egregiously wrong. It worked perfectly well for over 100 years, but now it's a painful spectacle killer.
Ultimately the point for me is that VAR has made football worse.
The argument that it will get some decisions closer to being precisely correct is ok but everything has error bars.
The game was fine without VAR, we need people to accept mistakes for what they are and accept they sometimes happen but are in the main made in good faith. I could understand the odd intervention (eg Zidane headbutt) but basically not having VAR at all is the best option to maximise the enjoyment of football (for me).
There's very little worse in football than a fan celebrating a goal in the moment.
Then suddenly thinking, oh hang on, it's not a marginal VAR check is it.
Then the dreaded VAR nonsense comes up and sometimes takes 2-3mins, while they try and find a reason to get rid of the goal.
It just brings an extra level of "it's corrupt" for goon fans too, as they now have faceless VAR operators to get all conspiracy about too.
It doesn't help when you have stuff like Michael Oliver being paid wads to ref in the middle east and such places, then ref teams with owners involved in those areas.
Comments
I meant *progression, not possession, but I suppose both apply.
PL clubs are having a vote on whether to scrap VAR at their AGM next month
You see it in non-league games now, and frankly the players just don't have the skill level to achieve it, so you just see endless giving away of possession in the final third.
🙏
How good would it be if they binned it off?
I saw it at a girls U-10s girls' game in America, with my niece's team benefitting by scoring constantly from the other team's wayward short passes from kickoffs. It's like a bad addiction.
Good as it his destroying football games and i hate it,yes some refs are shit but i'd rather accept their decisions than some clown who gives an offside for a players toenail that is centimeters over the line it's jut a joke.
Wow, never expected that. Here's hoping !
Agree but as usual there is a balance, constantly banging it forward didn't always work either and made some very average opposition centre halves look like prime beckenbauer as they restarted attacks after basically being handed the ball by ours under no pressure. Some of the standout Anthony Stewart masterclasses were great but possibly avoidable...and new Bayo's who can keep the defenders honest and win a good proportion of long balls fired from distance while being maekedare not easy to find
Think Blooms is getting the balance right after the failed experiments earlier on.
Surely unlikely to pass but agreeing to drop it even for 6 months would be really welcome by those who actually pay to get in. Really good statement from them tbh, not about blame but realisation that it doesn't fit well with live stadium sport, hasn't really helped with it's purpose and has added a load of grief rather than smoothing anything.
It's ok blaming the refs but they aren't going to be able to improve them significantly or replace them anytime soon and every additional rules tinker makes it harder for them.
Hmm, this is why kids get to the adult game not being able to do it .
I've seen kids football here where the attacking team has to retreat to their own half for goal kicks precisely to allow the team taking a goal kick to pass it out from the back.
I like that, and I must say kids coaching has progressed so far since I played kids football. Back then you'd just pick a big kid who could kick it the furthest to play at the back and in fact be told off if you "messed about with it" in defence
The emphasis now seems to be far more on actually coaching kids how to play and I think we're seeing the results in the national team
Hamilton Academical v Inverness Caledonian Thistle, Championship Qualification Final, on BBC Alba/iPlayer now. Alex Samuel starts for ICT.
I get the point, but it feels a bit like there being a dearth of amazing adult guitarists because kids weren't trying to learn Jimi Hendrix solos at 9 years old.
Well not necessarily. We don’t have all the data that football clubs do. So it’s impossible to say. There are various knock on effects and chains of events which will get broken down frame by frame.
But simple logic tells us that if you keep giving possession away at a rate of 1 in 2 from goal kicks - you are at a disadvantage.
The other team has the ball, and will come at you.
But IF you retain the ball MORE from playing out, that is reduced.
Is there a "yeah, that's EXACTLY the same" gif/meme? 😉
I don't think you can learn that tbf
Two scenarios - a team loses the ball 5 yards inside the opposition half vs losing it on the edge of their own penalty area.
I cannot believe any stats will confirm you concede more goals for every 100 occasions this happens for the former over the latter.
Passing out from the back has a place in the game but for me it’s gone too far the wrong way for the average team and in some cases even the very good teams. Spurs being a prime example this season of falling on their own sword.
(sorry, couldn't resist).
A vote triggered by Wolves. What a surprising move by them, I wonder why?
Agree It’s obviously a more risky affair. But the rewards are higher. Depends on your risk appetite really. And football preference.
Fingers crossed VAR is binned off. It was predictable that it would be shit before it was introduced. The only surprise is that it has actually been worse than I expected.
I could reluctantly tolerate video reviews for serious foul play and maybe penalties. But VAR for offsides has got to go, or be completely overhauled. The current system is absolutely atrocious.
The only argument in favour of VAR is from the tv companies who like manufactured drama for armchair fans.
Sadly, I expect it will stay.
Easiest way to solve it is to only allow four cameras at each ground, one in each stand and ban slow motion replays. Remove VAR altogether.
Then the pundits and TV will really struggle to show that the officials have made a mistake.
Alternatively, do what it was intended to do. Check for clear and obvious errors.
Fouls and handballs should only be shown in real time and changed if there was a clear error by the referee.
Offside rule should be adjusted. If any part of the torso is level with the defenders torso then it is onside. Due to stride patterns, using feet is ridiculous. Any player who scores or assists a goal who was offside during the play is offside - particularly the center forward who was three yards offside when the ball was played down the wing and subsequently taps it in. He has gained a lasting advantage.
Commoner sense.
The reality is that however you amend the offside rule, there will always be really really marginal decisions. Its unavoidable.
The reality is that on really marginal decisions, it is impossible for the naked eye to reliably make a judgement. The linesman has to essentially guess.
Its not a popular opinion at the moment, I know, but I prefer a system where we get as many decisions right as possible and hence support VAR accepting 1) that even with VAR we will not get to 100% right and accepting 2) that with many decisions (less so with offside) there is no right or wrong answer - judgement remains involved. VAR's role there is to show the referee what actually happened - it remains his job to interpret it and form a judgement - that judgement may remain a minority opinion.
One thing I have never got is the clear error argument or the umpire's call in cricket or the rugby equivalent. I get the argument not to have VAR at all in all those sports. If you have it at all though, then surely its best to go with the informed best decision even if its only a 70-30 chance the ball would have hit the stumps rather than going with the umpire who on those really tight calls is surely no better than 50-50.
You either fit sensors to every player and every blade of grass, and totally automate offside, like with goal line tech, or leave it to the guys with the flag.
Umpire's call was updated in 2016. it used to be 50% of the ball needed to be hitting 50% of the stump.
Now it's 50% of the ball hitting any part of the stump. Interesting article here:
Television killed the umpiring star (thecricketmonthly.com)
The Player review has clouded it slightly but most players and fans are happy with the jeopardy it brings because the rules are applied consistently and there is a significant amount of respect across all stakeholders in the game for Umpires and the role they play. This for me is the key difference between football and cricket.
@DevC The thing with offsides is that pre-VAR whenever there were marginal calls, absolutely nobody was complaining about the decisions. We all rightly complained about the Horgan offside against Derby because he was a good ten yards onside. There've been a few marginals both for and against us this season and they get a passing "from where I was sat" comment, often accompanied by "I was right inline with", but we're all happy to accept the lino's call if it's not egregiously wrong. It worked perfectly well for over 100 years, but now it's a painful spectacle killer.
Ultimately the point for me is that VAR has made football worse.
The argument that it will get some decisions closer to being precisely correct is ok but everything has error bars.
The game was fine without VAR, we need people to accept mistakes for what they are and accept they sometimes happen but are in the main made in good faith. I could understand the odd intervention (eg Zidane headbutt) but basically not having VAR at all is the best option to maximise the enjoyment of football (for me).
There's very little worse in football than a fan celebrating a goal in the moment.
Then suddenly thinking, oh hang on, it's not a marginal VAR check is it.
Then the dreaded VAR nonsense comes up and sometimes takes 2-3mins, while they try and find a reason to get rid of the goal.
It just brings an extra level of "it's corrupt" for goon fans too, as they now have faceless VAR operators to get all conspiracy about too.
It doesn't help when you have stuff like Michael Oliver being paid wads to ref in the middle east and such places, then ref teams with owners involved in those areas.