@OakwoodExile said:
I've not changed my position because of all the speculation. I can understand your frisson @micra , and I would be delighted if we were to stay up as a result of all this. But we absolutely shouldn't be campaigning for it to happen or taking legal action in an attempt to force it to happen. Let the cards fall where they will.
I reiterate my aim here, which is to continue/create the voice or conversation about all this in the hope that enough people up the chain will eventually hear and understand we care about our club. When the cards eventually fall, as you say, then the judgement/punishment should be applied to cover the period of the offence and if possible, some of the consequential damage caused to the clubs concerned. I don't believe we're campaigning, just expecting proper action following the EFL disciplinary process which is likely now to follow. Like ignoring racist and other antisocial behavior, turning your back is almost as bad as the act itself.
EFL to officially announce outcome of appeal tomorrow apparently. Sounds very much like any points deduction would be applied to next season. Oh, and the appeal could be appealed.
Thanks #glasshalffull Sadly, the publishers wouldn’t commission a follow-up. How could you beat the astonishing story of last year? Only, I suppose, if a team lost its first seven matches, procured an Albanian magician, was undone by several horrendous refereeing decisions, dazzled by the antics of a veteran goalkeeper at both ends of the pitch, was never off the bottom of the table until the final day of the season where they win 3-0 away at a club with 100 times its financial clout and then stayed in the Championship by virtue of a club that survived by one point being relegated for cheating financially. It would simply be another story too fantastic to credit.
The quicker this is cleared up the better but if the EFL are going to apply the points deduction next season which I think they will they better have a cast iron case based upon precedent because Bobby C is fully fluent in legal English not to mention what our friends in Sheffield could do
Regardless of whether we benefit from it or not the EFL need to come down on Wayne Rooney's Derby County (tm) the better. Having a player wearing the number 32 as he has his wages partly paid for by a betting company with the same name stinks and that's before the cheating.
As for the whole don't punish the fans thing well that's part and parcel of football sadly. You were happy to cheer on Wayne knowing the 'cost'.
@MorrisItal_ said:
The quicker this is cleared up the better but if the EFL are going to apply the points deduction next season which I think they will they better have a cast iron case based upon precedent because Bobby C is fully fluent in legal English not to mention what our friends in Sheffield could do
Think the precedent is Sheff Wed this season isn't it?
The real interesting thing is if Derby are being punished for new stuff, or stuff related to the same time as Sheffield Wed's offence.
If it's the latter that is awkward.
But sifting through the legal geniuses on various threads (I thought it was only Liverpool who every fan was a legal source after Suarez and many other recent disgraced like the super league and suchlike) it appears points deductions have to be applied the next season if done after March.
I believe this might be from nothing to a points deduction . As opposed to a prior points deduction being increased as was I think Macclesfield's case?
Having a read through the Derby forums, they appear to be in a complete financial mess, the owners have failed/refused to publish over due accounts. Regardless of whether Derby are fined/deducted points this season or next. It seems a relegation may be the least of the Rams problems.
For all that Rob Couhig's comments have made the headlines I actually think we're a bit-part player in this.
If Derby are given a points deduction to be applied in a different season to Sheff Wednesday's then they (Sheff Weds) would have huge justification for feeling hard done by.
Whatever the outcome of all this then surely their punishments need to be applied to the same season?
.......it appears points deductions have to be applied the next season if done after March.
I believe this might be from nothing to a points deduction . As opposed to a prior points deduction being increased as was I think Macclesfield's case?
Surely the March cutoff would be from a new charge being raised. In this case the charge of FPP breaking was made at the start of the season.
Did DC know at the start of the season that FPP rules existed? -Yes
Had DC accepted these rules? - Yes, by virtue of being in the competition
Were DC advised of the charge at the start of the season? - Yes
Have DC survived this season by virtue of a points deduction on another team charged at the same time? - Yes
Were DC aware of the EFL intention to appeal the previous decision before the end of the season? - Probably yes and probably before March
Is there precedent for points deductions after “last” game of the season? - Yes, Macclesfield , and also Championship not yet finalised as still playoffs to be completed.
So, in my view,IF a points deduction is the penalty it should be applied this season to be fair to SW if no-one else.
WWFC should not argue for a points deduction, that is the role of EFL to determine. If however that is the decision I do not see any representation that it should be this season rather than the next as being unsporting.
@ChasHarps said:
Having a read through the Derby forums, they appear to be in a complete financial mess, the owners have failed/refused to publish over due accounts. Regardless of whether Derby are fined/deducted points this season or next. It seems a relegation may be the least of the Rams problems.
As an aside to this conversation but on a similar note, Swindon may be the next club to really go to pieces. They are in complete financial meltdown. There is an ongoing investigation into how Lee Power came to buy the club in 2013; he wants to sell to an American consortium who appear to be elusive at best and has said he'll put the club into administration if the sale doesn't go through. A significant points deduction for next season looks likely, and that's before the whole financial mess consuming the club is sorted. Swindon must be the most long-term basket case club in the league, going back decades. Wholesale changes in football governance are needed, but does anyone hold out any hope they'll happen?
I'm sure Derby will just drag their feet over this now to delay any decision for as long as possible - if they're asked to provide further details of accounts etc.
And in any case, if nothing can be applied after the end of the season, their season has already finished - the end date applies to the specific club, so unless you're in the play-offs your season is already considered to have been completed.
We absolutely should be trying to force the issue, though - if only to get clarity so we can plan for next season.
Regardless of our position in all this, Derby being allowed another season of extra money in the Championship despite knowingly breaking the rules is akin to a burglar being allowed to keep the stuff they stole.
if it's the same misdemeanour as SWFC and was heard originally at the same time, it does seem crazy for the punishment not to be retrospective, in order to appear fair to SWFC. There seems to be something cynical in the timing, with all the activity around this suddenly happening a couple of days after they've played their last match.
And if the punishment ends up being only financial, are they going to wait til next season to send them the fine?
It would be shocking if the points deduction was postponed until next season. The only reason they weren't charged and punished at the same time as SWFC was because they actively tried to hide their wrongdoings with this accounting trick.
If the punishment is pushed back (and relegation ultimately avoided) because of that, it is basically rewarding their blatant cheating on the player amortisation. I know that some on this forum differ on whether we should get involved, but I think Rob Couhig should be all over this
You sound quite indignant but FWIW I think you've got some facts incorrect.
SW were originally charged in November 2019, for offences which hinged on the sale of their ground in July 2018.
Derby were charged in January 2020 for offences which hinged on their accounting practice over a three year period ending June 2018. Charges relating to the valuation of their ground in the sale and lease back are not the issue.
Any sense, therefore, that they have been cheated out of a place in the championship should be reserved for those clubs in the league in previous seasons.
The reason that no sanction has yet been applied to Derby is because the panel didn't originally find in favour of the EFL, on appeal that has now changed, it's got nothing to do with what the offence was.
As an aside to this conversation but on a similar note, Swindon may be the next club to really go to pieces. They are in complete financial meltdown. There is an ongoing investigation into how Lee Power came to buy the club in 2013; he wants to sell to an American consortium who appear to be elusive at best and has said he'll put the club into administration if the sale doesn't go through. A significant points deduction for next season looks likely, and that's before the whole financial mess consuming the club is sorted. Swindon must be the most long-term basket case club in the league, going back decades. Wholesale changes in football governance are needed, but does anyone hold out any hope they'll happen?
The Derby scenario would have been very interesting if for instance they had made the playoffs this season. What would the EFL have done then, especially if they won the play-offs or even got promoted automatically.
I suspect if that had been the case that they may well have been denied promotion, so why is it different with then just escaping relegation.
@Blue_since_1990 said:
The Derby scenario would have been very interesting if for instance they had made the playoffs this season. What would the EFL have done then, especially if they won the play-offs or even got promoted automatically.
I suspect if that had been the case that they may well have been denied promotion, so why is it different with then just escaping relegation.
@Blue_since_1990 said:
The Derby scenario would have been very interesting if for instance they had made the playoffs this season. What would the EFL have done then, especially if they won the play-offs or even got promoted automatically.
I suspect if that had been the case that they may well have been denied promotion, so why is it different with then just escaping relegation.
Swindon were denied promotion to the first Division in 1990 despite winning the play-off final, due to illegal payments to players.
Prospective new owner Erik Alonso has just been rumbled tweeting a video of what he claims to be his very opulent house - but he's actually just pinched a random TikTok. Safe to say Derby fans don't really want him involved.
If they had gone up automatically they would not then be subject to EFL rules. Wasn't that the case with QPR who only got fined once they got relegated from the Premier.
Comments
Life is never dull when you follow Wycombe Wanderers!
This could end up being the most unusual two seasons in the history of any club.
I reiterate my aim here, which is to continue/create the voice or conversation about all this in the hope that enough people up the chain will eventually hear and understand we care about our club. When the cards eventually fall, as you say, then the judgement/punishment should be applied to cover the period of the offence and if possible, some of the consequential damage caused to the clubs concerned. I don't believe we're campaigning, just expecting proper action following the EFL disciplinary process which is likely now to follow. Like ignoring racist and other antisocial behavior, turning your back is almost as bad as the act itself.
Where is Neil Harman when you need him? ‘Close Quarters, the sequel’ would have been another great read.
Oh no @glassalffull, you mean there isn't another one in the pipeline this season??
Oh well time for bed, Grandson to look after tomorrow.
EFL to officially announce outcome of appeal tomorrow apparently. Sounds very much like any points deduction would be applied to next season. Oh, and the appeal could be appealed.
Thanks #glasshalffull Sadly, the publishers wouldn’t commission a follow-up. How could you beat the astonishing story of last year? Only, I suppose, if a team lost its first seven matches, procured an Albanian magician, was undone by several horrendous refereeing decisions, dazzled by the antics of a veteran goalkeeper at both ends of the pitch, was never off the bottom of the table until the final day of the season where they win 3-0 away at a club with 100 times its financial clout and then stayed in the Championship by virtue of a club that survived by one point being relegated for cheating financially. It would simply be another story too fantastic to credit.
Yes, now you put it that way @OldEchoMan, it's ridiculous and clearly would be a work of fiction!???
The quicker this is cleared up the better but if the EFL are going to apply the points deduction next season which I think they will they better have a cast iron case based upon precedent because Bobby C is fully fluent in legal English not to mention what our friends in Sheffield could do
Totally agree @OakwoodExile
Regardless of whether we benefit from it or not the EFL need to come down on Wayne Rooney's Derby County (tm) the better. Having a player wearing the number 32 as he has his wages partly paid for by a betting company with the same name stinks and that's before the cheating.
As for the whole don't punish the fans thing well that's part and parcel of football sadly. You were happy to cheer on Wayne knowing the 'cost'.
Think the precedent is Sheff Wed this season isn't it?
The real interesting thing is if Derby are being punished for new stuff, or stuff related to the same time as Sheffield Wed's offence.
If it's the latter that is awkward.
But sifting through the legal geniuses on various threads (I thought it was only Liverpool who every fan was a legal source after Suarez and many other recent disgraced like the super league and suchlike) it appears points deductions have to be applied the next season if done after March.
I believe this might be from nothing to a points deduction . As opposed to a prior points deduction being increased as was I think Macclesfield's case?
Having a read through the Derby forums, they appear to be in a complete financial mess, the owners have failed/refused to publish over due accounts. Regardless of whether Derby are fined/deducted points this season or next. It seems a relegation may be the least of the Rams problems.
For all that Rob Couhig's comments have made the headlines I actually think we're a bit-part player in this.
If Derby are given a points deduction to be applied in a different season to Sheff Wednesday's then they (Sheff Weds) would have huge justification for feeling hard done by.
Whatever the outcome of all this then surely their punishments need to be applied to the same season?
Surely the March cutoff would be from a new charge being raised. In this case the charge of FPP breaking was made at the start of the season.
Did DC know at the start of the season that FPP rules existed? -Yes
Had DC accepted these rules? - Yes, by virtue of being in the competition
Were DC advised of the charge at the start of the season? - Yes
Have DC survived this season by virtue of a points deduction on another team charged at the same time? - Yes
Were DC aware of the EFL intention to appeal the previous decision before the end of the season? - Probably yes and probably before March
Is there precedent for points deductions after “last” game of the season? - Yes, Macclesfield , and also Championship not yet finalised as still playoffs to be completed.
So, in my view,IF a points deduction is the penalty it should be applied this season to be fair to SW if no-one else.
WWFC should not argue for a points deduction, that is the role of EFL to determine. If however that is the decision I do not see any representation that it should be this season rather than the next as being unsporting.
As an aside to this conversation but on a similar note, Swindon may be the next club to really go to pieces. They are in complete financial meltdown. There is an ongoing investigation into how Lee Power came to buy the club in 2013; he wants to sell to an American consortium who appear to be elusive at best and has said he'll put the club into administration if the sale doesn't go through. A significant points deduction for next season looks likely, and that's before the whole financial mess consuming the club is sorted. Swindon must be the most long-term basket case club in the league, going back decades. Wholesale changes in football governance are needed, but does anyone hold out any hope they'll happen?
I'm sure Derby will just drag their feet over this now to delay any decision for as long as possible - if they're asked to provide further details of accounts etc.
And in any case, if nothing can be applied after the end of the season, their season has already finished - the end date applies to the specific club, so unless you're in the play-offs your season is already considered to have been completed.
We absolutely should be trying to force the issue, though - if only to get clarity so we can plan for next season.
Regardless of our position in all this, Derby being allowed another season of extra money in the Championship despite knowingly breaking the rules is akin to a burglar being allowed to keep the stuff they stole.
Spot on @MindlessDrugHoover. An absolute travesty if they retain their place in the Championship.
if it's the same misdemeanour as SWFC and was heard originally at the same time, it does seem crazy for the punishment not to be retrospective, in order to appear fair to SWFC. There seems to be something cynical in the timing, with all the activity around this suddenly happening a couple of days after they've played their last match.
And if the punishment ends up being only financial, are they going to wait til next season to send them the fine?
It would be shocking if the points deduction was postponed until next season. The only reason they weren't charged and punished at the same time as SWFC was because they actively tried to hide their wrongdoings with this accounting trick.
If the punishment is pushed back (and relegation ultimately avoided) because of that, it is basically rewarding their blatant cheating on the player amortisation. I know that some on this forum differ on whether we should get involved, but I think Rob Couhig should be all over this
You sound quite indignant but FWIW I think you've got some facts incorrect.
SW were originally charged in November 2019, for offences which hinged on the sale of their ground in July 2018.
Derby were charged in January 2020 for offences which hinged on their accounting practice over a three year period ending June 2018. Charges relating to the valuation of their ground in the sale and lease back are not the issue.
Any sense, therefore, that they have been cheated out of a place in the championship should be reserved for those clubs in the league in previous seasons.
The reason that no sanction has yet been applied to Derby is because the panel didn't originally find in favour of the EFL, on appeal that has now changed, it's got nothing to do with what the offence was.
Surely Sheffield Wednesday would have a claim against the EFL if Derby get away with a much less severe penalty for a similar offence?
I believe Nige Tassell, who did the excellent 'Bottom Corner', is doing a season in the Championship book, and we are one of the featured teams?
https://bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57069145
You really can't help some clubs!
The Derby scenario would have been very interesting if for instance they had made the playoffs this season. What would the EFL have done then, especially if they won the play-offs or even got promoted automatically.
I suspect if that had been the case that they may well have been denied promotion, so why is it different with then just escaping relegation.
Excellent point
Swindon were denied promotion to the first Division in 1990 despite winning the play-off final, due to illegal payments to players.
Prospective new owner Erik Alonso has just been rumbled tweeting a video of what he claims to be his very opulent house - but he's actually just pinched a random TikTok. Safe to say Derby fans don't really want him involved.
If they had gone up automatically they would not then be subject to EFL rules. Wasn't that the case with QPR who only got fined once they got relegated from the Premier.