Yes, this idea that we played a different style against Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham A is surely a myth? There was nothing spectacular about our win against Wednesday, just a gritty backs to the wall effort following a set piece goal. Birmingham we did play well, but there was plenty of long balls up to Bayo, mixed in with some good football on the deck. Pretty much what we try to do in most games when our confidence is up, as it was at that point?
Correct, but Aloysius has a theory and he will stick to it no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary. Does anyone else really believe that Dobbo said to the players before those games ‘Right, the manager isn’t here so I want to rip up everything we’ve done for the last few years and try a completely different approach until he’s back and we revert to the same old thing again.’
Alex Neill after that game - "The simple fact is we gave opportunities to players who haven't been playing of late, and people ask why they haven't been playing, and I think it was quite clear today. They shouldn't have any complaints if they're not in the team for a long time."
Matt Bloomfield was in Dobbo's ear during both of the games Gareth missed so perhaps it's not Dobbo who made the subtle but successful changes in tactics but Bloomers? And he had an earpiece as well. And I heard Mrs Bloomfield was sat in the car-park on her telephone. These things need looking into...
@glasshalffull said:
Incidentally, did anyone notice that Forest’s first two goals on Saturday both came from long balls (one a set piece) from inside their own half?
You of course well know the length of the ball is rarely the main issue people are getting at when they moan about direct / long ball football. Nobody minds when a defender finds someone in space with a quick ball or a long crossfield pass sets a winger away on the charge.
The issue is when it's a punt forward to nobody and it comes straight back winning you maybe 3 seconds calm before you are under pressure again or when hopeful balls to nobody in particular become the first option as people don't have the confidence to find a pass or hold the ball.
This is where Freeman (and Curtis on form) made a difference to general play, if not always to the score and where a once magnetic Bayo was so effective. A lot is said about his ability to flick on towards someone but I fear that like in the last days of Paul Hayes he's rarely up with play or effective enough any more for this to work.
@StrongestTeam said:
Nobody minds when a defender finds someone in space with a quick ball or a long crossfield pass sets a winger away on the charge.
This is the single biggest change I've noticed in the quality of our opposition this year (aside from finishing accuracy), and I think it might be a huge factor in why we're struggling - teams in this division have far better accuracy with long passes, particularly with regards to switching flank. We're often caught out with too many of our players heading to the side of the pitch the ball is at only for the opposition to switch play out to someone in acres of space on the opposite side. The teams that were able to do that with any degree of success in League 1 were few and far between. I don't have any ideas for how we counter that, just something that I've noticed this season.
I think the phrase 'keeping your shape' was not needed in League One and Two @drcongo the times everyone was all bunched over one side of the pitch and I used to shout pass it out wide to Harriman he has an absolutely clear run on goal. Obviously no-one ever heard me or I would be in the management team!
@StrongestTeam said:
Nobody minds when a defender finds someone in space with a quick ball or a long crossfield pass sets a winger away on the charge.
This is the single biggest change I've noticed in the quality of our opposition this year (aside from finishing accuracy), and I think it might be a huge factor in why we're struggling - teams in this division have far better accuracy with long passes, particularly with regards to switching flank. We're often caught out with too many of our players heading to the side of the pitch the ball is at only for the opposition to switch play out to someone in acres of space on the opposite side. The teams that were able to do that with any degree of success in League 1 were few and far between. I don't have any ideas for how we counter that, just something that I've noticed this season.
Part of that is Gape not being about to fill in gaps at the back, he does a lot of that unseen and part of it is just dominating your space as a defender and having adequate cover. Not sure Fred or Horgan and some others are always prepared to defend as much as is needed. Also everyone we play is that bit bigger or quicker or cleverer because people who have the £ have the choice, and we are defending more.
Taff showed some signs in his first game back of being a massive collossus that would dominate anything aerial or our wide to the left but not so much since and it's a big ask. Knight just looks Knackered and surely Stewart is chomping at the bit to come back in.
We need to vary our attacking too, and hassle and occupy the defenders but it's easier said than done.
Firstly do you not accept that Gareth has played differently in the past? It's not true that he's never set his team up differently - what about the 2014-5 season where we played a 442?
Secondly if you don't think we have played differently this season under Gareth do you then agree with my theory that the matches where he was recovering from his back surgery, when we played very differently and won two matches, was due to it being Richard Dobson on the touchline?
And thirdly, I think it's a bit unfair for you to suggest Gareth won't ever change his style. All managers adapt to the circumstances they find themselves in. He may well have decided that the squad this season necessitates a safety first, hoof up to the big man style. But if we go down and he decides he has a squad that can compete with the best in League One by playing it on the ground, I fully expect Gareth to adapt his style to accommodate that.
You are messing with me aren't you? My exact point is that Ainsworth isn't a single tactic manager. He dies though have his core values and all his changes stay within that framework. He's not going to suddenly start playing like Barcelona.
I'm sure he'll adapt but it will be within that core. He evolves each season. To suggest we were totally different while he was in hospital is just a conspiracy theory. We just played a bit better than the last couple of games.
Against Sheffield Wednesday we scored right on half time and it was then backs to the wall for the entire second half as Wednesday dominated possession. I don’t recall it being any different to most other games except that we held on for the win.
@glasshalffull said:
Against Sheffield Wednesday we scored right on half time and it was then backs to the wall for the entire second half as Wednesday dominated possession. I don’t recall it being any different to most other games except that we held on for the win.
It was like watching Brazil in the early 80's for some it seems.
Maybe an exaggeration but something the manager has done has to be the reason we won. It can't be down to the players or the opposition.
I still think the best I’ve seen is play this season (taking out Preston) was the game against Watford. From memory we mixed up our style really well and should have won. Certainly better for the 90 minutes than the Birmingham and Sheff Wed games which immediately followed the Watford game.
Saying that we played a completely different style of football is rewriting history.
Looking back it’s of note that this was just after Bayo came back into the side
For me, this whole debate boils down to one simple, harsh truth. We just don’t have the quality or Championship experience in our squad to outplay our opponents in a pure football contest so we do what we are best at doing.
Talking of stats, since 2005 when the EFL rebranded the names of its divisions, nine of the 15 clubs promoted from League One through the playoffs went straight back down again the following season. We are not alone in finding the step up a very difficult challenge.
@glasshalffull said:
For me, this whole debate boils down to one simple, harsh truth. We just don’t have the quality or Championship experience in our squad to outplay our opponents in a pure football contest so we do what we are best at doing.
An interesting statistic is that Bayo has started 9 games in which we secured 8 points. The other 17 games he didn't start we also earnt 8 points.
Another interesting(ish) statistic for those who see Freeman as answer to all our problems. He has started three league games - one draw and two defeats but in the draw we equalised after he went off. he has subbed on four times - one draw three defeats but in the draw we were ahead when he came on and then conceded. So in each of the seven league games while he was on the field the opposition scored more goals than us.
The main issue for me this season has been injuries to our core team. Stewart, Gape and Bayo from last seasons heroes. Tafazolli and Uche from this seasons new starters. Plus a lot of others have spent time on the sidelines.
Those early season injuries have caused us some headaches. We had a a near perfect year with injuries last season, and this season it could hardly be much worse.
GA has talked a lot about wanting to express ourselves and leave our imprint on games. I think that approach has led to us trying to attack at will and score goals in the first 30 minutes of games, the reality though is that the positive nature of that has left us so exposed at the back and invariably a goal or two down. Particularly in away games. We did not attack like this against the best teams last season although our record against top 10 last season was very poor so perhaps this is where the change of approach has come from.
We had a long period of playing 5 attackers and one midfielder, which does not work. It was at its absolute worst with the starting line-up at Forest, square pegs in round holes. A game we could and should have got something out of if we'd had another central midfielder playing and a proper striker.
At this level you cannot really afford to expose yourself at the back, teams have watched how we played over the those first few months and have now worked out that if they switch play quickly they'll generally get enough chances to beat us as we often have three up the pitch, leaving lots of gaps to exploit.
Knight has been excellent this season but Glenn Murray gave him a real lesson on Saturday. Their opening two goals really being down to Knight losing Murray and us paying the consequences. The last 30 we were poor but perhaps more from the realisation we could not come back from 2 down.
I don't think we need to tweak much to perhaps get the fans and team united again. A more conservative approach in the opening half, with protection for both full backs.
Two center mids to battle for the ball with Muskwe just in front of them. Two of Wheeler, Fred, McCleary and Horgan out wide. The other two replacing them after 60. Uche up front. Our final ball in needs some significant improvement, I lost count of how many we overhit on Saturday having got into good positions.
At our lowest confidence we hoof the ball aimlessly to Uche or Bayo, at our best we mix up short passing and long balls. We saw glimpses of our best in that first hour on Saturday. Hopefully GA can encourage that tomorrow against Sheffield.
We all know we are a team that tends to go on good runs and bad runs. A positive performance tomorrow might just start a little run of good games and something to smile about, lets keep the faith! COYB!
@StrongestTeam said:
A little more thought at times when we are on the ball isn't necessarily a bad thing however understandable the approach is.
Don’t disagree with that, but I think confidence plays a big part. Remember the relaxed football we played in the cup tie against Preston when we had the comfort of a 2/3 goal lead, something we haven’t had in a single league match this season.
An interesting stat from my commentary notes on Saturday:
Wycombe completed just 80 passes against Birmingham in their 0-0 draw in their last match – the second fewest by a team in the top four tiers of English football in a league match this season, behind Wycombe’s tally of 78 vs Sheffield Wednesday in October.
Two games which have produced a quarter of our points tally so far.
@Chris said:
And the trouble is when it doesn’t work it doesn’t look pretty.
It was never that pretty when it did work and the massive surprise of getting us up coupled with the fact that we have the nucleus of the same squad does suggest that whatever tactics, players added, players dumped, players not used, GA made or makes, we were never likely to survive. But if we do...and I'm still clinging to the leaky lifeboat of hope...him and Dobbo are the men most likely to do it with this team. Anyone who thought we would become a stylish, eye-catching footballing side cutting a swathe through moneybags Championship clubs (or even the struggling ones!) to become favourites of pundits and opposition fans alike may not have been 'watching this every week' for long enough! At the worst, we will still have a club if we go down and possibly a stronger team ready to bore League One again. I know it is quite grim at present but for me footy has always been long periods of stress and horror alleviated by the odd moment of magic...a few more excellent Uche goals may have to do this season.
Comments
Gaz plays a > @Wycombe85 said:
Correct, but Aloysius has a theory and he will stick to it no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary. Does anyone else really believe that Dobbo said to the players before those games ‘Right, the manager isn’t here so I want to rip up everything we’ve done for the last few years and try a completely different approach until he’s back and we revert to the same old thing again.’
Did Preston have their first choice 11 on the pitch for that cup game?
No, as Mooneyman said above they made (from memory) about eight changes from their previous league game.
Alex Neill after that game - "The simple fact is we gave opportunities to players who haven't been playing of late, and people ask why they haven't been playing, and I think it was quite clear today. They shouldn't have any complaints if they're not in the team for a long time."
Incidentally, did anyone notice that Forest’s first two goals on Saturday both came from long balls (one a set piece) from inside their own half?
Martin O'Neill has suggested this morning, "Wycombe needed at least tree fellas to step up if they were to cut through Forest."
Matt Bloomfield was in Dobbo's ear during both of the games Gareth missed so perhaps it's not Dobbo who made the subtle but successful changes in tactics but Bloomers? And he had an earpiece as well. And I heard Mrs Bloomfield was sat in the car-park on her telephone. These things need looking into...
You of course well know the length of the ball is rarely the main issue people are getting at when they moan about direct / long ball football. Nobody minds when a defender finds someone in space with a quick ball or a long crossfield pass sets a winger away on the charge.
The issue is when it's a punt forward to nobody and it comes straight back winning you maybe 3 seconds calm before you are under pressure again or when hopeful balls to nobody in particular become the first option as people don't have the confidence to find a pass or hold the ball.
This is where Freeman (and Curtis on form) made a difference to general play, if not always to the score and where a once magnetic Bayo was so effective. A lot is said about his ability to flick on towards someone but I fear that like in the last days of Paul Hayes he's rarely up with play or effective enough any more for this to work.
This is the single biggest change I've noticed in the quality of our opposition this year (aside from finishing accuracy), and I think it might be a huge factor in why we're struggling - teams in this division have far better accuracy with long passes, particularly with regards to switching flank. We're often caught out with too many of our players heading to the side of the pitch the ball is at only for the opposition to switch play out to someone in acres of space on the opposite side. The teams that were able to do that with any degree of success in League 1 were few and far between. I don't have any ideas for how we counter that, just something that I've noticed this season.
I think the phrase 'keeping your shape' was not needed in League One and Two @drcongo the times everyone was all bunched over one side of the pitch and I used to shout pass it out wide to Harriman he has an absolutely clear run on goal. Obviously no-one ever heard me or I would be in the management team!
Part of that is Gape not being about to fill in gaps at the back, he does a lot of that unseen and part of it is just dominating your space as a defender and having adequate cover. Not sure Fred or Horgan and some others are always prepared to defend as much as is needed. Also everyone we play is that bit bigger or quicker or cleverer because people who have the £ have the choice, and we are defending more.
Taff showed some signs in his first game back of being a massive collossus that would dominate anything aerial or our wide to the left but not so much since and it's a big ask. Knight just looks Knackered and surely Stewart is chomping at the bit to come back in.
We need to vary our attacking too, and hassle and occupy the defenders but it's easier said than done.
You are messing with me aren't you? My exact point is that Ainsworth isn't a single tactic manager. He dies though have his core values and all his changes stay within that framework. He's not going to suddenly start playing like Barcelona.
I'm sure he'll adapt but it will be within that core. He evolves each season. To suggest we were totally different while he was in hospital is just a conspiracy theory. We just played a bit better than the last couple of games.
Against Sheffield Wednesday we scored right on half time and it was then backs to the wall for the entire second half as Wednesday dominated possession. I don’t recall it being any different to most other games except that we held on for the win.
It was like watching Brazil in the early 80's for some it seems.
Maybe an exaggeration but something the manager has done has to be the reason we won. It can't be down to the players or the opposition.
I still think the best I’ve seen is play this season (taking out Preston) was the game against Watford. From memory we mixed up our style really well and should have won. Certainly better for the 90 minutes than the Birmingham and Sheff Wed games which immediately followed the Watford game.
Saying that we played a completely different style of football is rewriting history.
Looking back it’s of note that this was just after Bayo came back into the side
It's funny how quickly views change.
People mentioned how we only secured points when Bayo was playing, and now some react with horror at him even coming on as sub.
Bayo was immense against Watford, that really gave a bit of hope. I'm not convinced since but I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
Our style needs a dominant target man to hold the ball up. Bayo has been immense and I'm not sure Uche is that player.
For me, this whole debate boils down to one simple, harsh truth. We just don’t have the quality or Championship experience in our squad to outplay our opponents in a pure football contest so we do what we are best at doing.
An interesting statistic is that Bayo has started 9 games in which we secured 8 points. The other 17 games he didn't start we also earnt 8 points.
Talking of stats, since 2005 when the EFL rebranded the names of its divisions, nine of the 15 clubs promoted from League One through the playoffs went straight back down again the following season. We are not alone in finding the step up a very difficult challenge.
Completely agree.
And the trouble is when it doesn’t work it doesn’t look pretty.
Another interesting(ish) statistic for those who see Freeman as answer to all our problems. He has started three league games - one draw and two defeats but in the draw we equalised after he went off. he has subbed on four times - one draw three defeats but in the draw we were ahead when he came on and then conceded. So in each of the seven league games while he was on the field the opposition scored more goals than us.
Funny things statistics.
A little more thought at times when we are on the ball isn't necessarily a bad thing however understandable the approach is.
The main issue for me this season has been injuries to our core team. Stewart, Gape and Bayo from last seasons heroes. Tafazolli and Uche from this seasons new starters. Plus a lot of others have spent time on the sidelines.
Those early season injuries have caused us some headaches. We had a a near perfect year with injuries last season, and this season it could hardly be much worse.
GA has talked a lot about wanting to express ourselves and leave our imprint on games. I think that approach has led to us trying to attack at will and score goals in the first 30 minutes of games, the reality though is that the positive nature of that has left us so exposed at the back and invariably a goal or two down. Particularly in away games. We did not attack like this against the best teams last season although our record against top 10 last season was very poor so perhaps this is where the change of approach has come from.
We had a long period of playing 5 attackers and one midfielder, which does not work. It was at its absolute worst with the starting line-up at Forest, square pegs in round holes. A game we could and should have got something out of if we'd had another central midfielder playing and a proper striker.
At this level you cannot really afford to expose yourself at the back, teams have watched how we played over the those first few months and have now worked out that if they switch play quickly they'll generally get enough chances to beat us as we often have three up the pitch, leaving lots of gaps to exploit.
Knight has been excellent this season but Glenn Murray gave him a real lesson on Saturday. Their opening two goals really being down to Knight losing Murray and us paying the consequences. The last 30 we were poor but perhaps more from the realisation we could not come back from 2 down.
I don't think we need to tweak much to perhaps get the fans and team united again. A more conservative approach in the opening half, with protection for both full backs.
Two center mids to battle for the ball with Muskwe just in front of them. Two of Wheeler, Fred, McCleary and Horgan out wide. The other two replacing them after 60. Uche up front. Our final ball in needs some significant improvement, I lost count of how many we overhit on Saturday having got into good positions.
At our lowest confidence we hoof the ball aimlessly to Uche or Bayo, at our best we mix up short passing and long balls. We saw glimpses of our best in that first hour on Saturday. Hopefully GA can encourage that tomorrow against Sheffield.
We all know we are a team that tends to go on good runs and bad runs. A positive performance tomorrow might just start a little run of good games and something to smile about, lets keep the faith! COYB!
Don’t disagree with that, but I think confidence plays a big part. Remember the relaxed football we played in the cup tie against Preston when we had the comfort of a 2/3 goal lead, something we haven’t had in a single league match this season.
An interesting stat from my commentary notes on Saturday:
Wycombe completed just 80 passes against Birmingham in their 0-0 draw in their last match – the second fewest by a team in the top four tiers of English football in a league match this season, behind Wycombe’s tally of 78 vs Sheffield Wednesday in October.
Two games which have produced a quarter of our points tally so far.
It was never that pretty when it did work and the massive surprise of getting us up coupled with the fact that we have the nucleus of the same squad does suggest that whatever tactics, players added, players dumped, players not used, GA made or makes, we were never likely to survive. But if we do...and I'm still clinging to the leaky lifeboat of hope...him and Dobbo are the men most likely to do it with this team. Anyone who thought we would become a stylish, eye-catching footballing side cutting a swathe through moneybags Championship clubs (or even the struggling ones!) to become favourites of pundits and opposition fans alike may not have been 'watching this every week' for long enough!
At the worst, we will still have a club if we go down and possibly a stronger team ready to bore League One again. I know it is quite grim at present but for me footy has always been long periods of stress and horror alleviated by the odd moment of magic...a few more excellent Uche goals may have to do this season.
POTD Mr Wendover.