Thing is I'm pretty sure GA and the players will believe they can still turn this around. Whilst I and many other supporters will see this as highly improbable, the last thing I'd expect or indeed want to see is throwing in the towel and using the rest of the season to experiment with various players, tactics, formations. They will I hope believe that a huge amount can still happen in 20 games.
If we're relegated with 5-10 games still to go, then I'm sure we will see a few different options tested. Now however, is not the right time.
I am not convinced with our current squad we can do anything different that will work at this level @drcongo.
To maximise our chances of picking up points we have to play to our strengths and/or exploit the oppositions weaknesses. With our midfielders, however well they play, we cannot expect to outpass the likes of Brentford, Swansea etc. In those type of matches our best chances is to try and bypass midfield. However, against sides like Birmingham we should have taken the opportunity to get the ball down and played a bit more which we didn't do.
One of our strengths is from from set plays, so in that respect we have been badly hit with JJ's injury. Kashket and Uche are our only natural goalscorers so I could not get my head round Kaskets omission yesterday. Bayo is only really effective in plan B if Kashket is alongside him, so his arrival on the pitch yesterday was totally ineffective.
One experiment I would like to see in certain matches where the opposition's defence is not physically strong or good in the air, would be instead of substituting Uche for Bayo to have both on the pitch for the last 30 minutes. Probably wouldn't work, but would be interesting to see with JJ hitting free kicks and corners to them.
The other point which others have raised is we now have two good wingers, but I believe we have the narrowest pitch in the league so don't fully benefit from their ability. Why do we do this.
I agree with Wycombe85, until it’s mathematically impossible to stay up this is not the time to give up and start chucking in untested young players. However, that is not to say there is anything wrong with tweaking the tactics with a view to getting the wins we so desperately need.
I think Horgan is one of the best players Wycombe have ever had on a permanent deal and if we do go down and he sticks around then he will be a massive handful for league 1 defences.
@Chris said:
I think Horgan is one of the best players Wycombe have ever had on a permanent deal and if we do go down and he sticks around then he will be a massive handful for league 1 defences.
If Horgan and Mcleary did stick around for a season in League One, I would like to see the pitch returned to its original dimensions.
@Chris said:
I think Horgan is one of the best players Wycombe have ever had on a permanent deal and if we do go down and he sticks around then he will be a massive handful for league 1 defences.
If Horgan and Mcleary did stick around for a season in League One, I would like to see the pitch returned to its original dimensions.
McCleary isn't the pace meister he was in his prime though, and Horgan isn't a traditional winger, so I'm not sure we would do that.
I’m not sure what you expected this season. I thought it would be a tough battle and have actually been surprised both how tough and how we’ve competed in most games. We’ve hit a bit of a tough patch and I’m not throwing anyone under the bus.
So yes I do believe Ainsworth will get it right. I’m just not as impatient as some to ask for it to be now.
@Chris said:
I think Horgan is one of the best players Wycombe have ever had on a permanent deal and if we do go down and he sticks around then he will be a massive handful for league 1 defences.
If Horgan and Mcleary did stick around for a season in League One, I would like to see the pitch returned to its original dimensions.
McCleary has signed a contract extension, so he'll be here for sure.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
So yes I do believe Ainsworth will get it right. I’m just not as impatient as some to ask for it to be now.
That’s not actually what he asked though is it. And it’s not impatient to suggest after 26 games of the same tactic producing only 3 wins that it might be time to try something else. You seem to be answering an entirely different debate.
edit: correction - our one tactic has actually produced only one win - the other two wins when Gaz was absent we played a very different way. And won.
@Chris said:
I think Horgan is one of the best players Wycombe have ever had on a permanent deal and if we do go down and he sticks around then he will be a massive handful for league 1 defences.
I’m still not convinced we know what to do with Horgan. When he gets wide and does simple things he’s really effective. When he comes inside he can be really creative (his assist v PNE). But why does he not do it consistently? Is he told to roam or is that his thing? He seemed to hold width yesterday in the first half then wandered more as the game went on. An undoubted talent and a worker. Just needs tweaking. Just like Freeman.
@Chris said:
I think Horgan is one of the best players Wycombe have ever had on a permanent deal and if we do go down and he sticks around then he will be a massive handful for league 1 defences.
I’m still not convinced we know what to do with Horgan. When he gets wide and does simple things he’s really effective. When he comes inside he can be really creative (his assist v PNE). But why does he not do it consistently? Is he told to roam or is that his thing? He seemed to hold width yesterday in the first half then wandered more as the game went on. An undoubted talent and a worker. Just needs tweaking. Just like Freeman.
He's the type of player who needs a lot of ball, and smart players running into space and working off him.
I don't think we've seen even 25% of what he's capable of.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
So yes I do believe Ainsworth will get it right. I’m just not as impatient as some to ask for it to be now.
That’s not actually what he asked though is it. And it’s not impatient to suggest after 26 games of the same tactic producing only 3 wins that it might be time to try something else. You seem to be answering an entirely different debate.
edit: correction - our one tactic has actually produced only one win - the other two wins when Gaz was absent we played a very different way. And won.
Are you a subscriber to the Aloysius theory that when Gareth was incapacitated with his back problem he had no influence over team selection and tactics? If so, I can assure you that you are very much mistaken. He and Dobbo work in tandem and have the greatest respect for each other’s opinions. Everything they do they do as a partnership.
@Chris said:
I think Horgan is one of the best players Wycombe have ever had on a permanent deal and if we do go down and he sticks around then he will be a massive handful for league 1 defences.
If Horgan and Mcleary did stick around for a season in League One, I would like to see the pitch returned to its original dimensions.
McCleary isn't the pace meister he was in his prime though, and Horgan isn't a traditional winger, so I'm not sure we would do that.
Re McCleary, we said the same thing about Nathan Tyson a few years ago and we were amazed at how little his pace had declined. He was younger then than McCleary is now.
Although Horgan has been given (or taken upon himself) a more roving role, I think he is essentially a winger, like McCleary. I’d love to see them played as such, Horgan on the left and McCleary on the right.
@mooneyman says that Uche and Kashket are our only natural goalscorers.
The Admiral might take exception to that, having been (I’m pretty sure) a prolific goalscorer for Leicester Under 23s. Big step up, physically, of course but we’ve already seen evidence of his ability to be in the right place at the right time.
@drcongo does the definition of insanity include saying the same thing over and over and over again for months on a football forum? Just asking for a few Gasroomers
OK to clarify @micra "proven Football League" goalscorers. Dayle Southwell was a prolific scorer at Boston, but a damp squib when he moved to Adams Park.
@mooneyman said:
OK to clarify @micra "proven Football League" goalscorers. Dayle Southwell was a prolific scorer at Boston, but a damp squib when he moved to Adams Park.
Proven goal scorer is always an interesting turn of phrase.
Uche offers a lot, but by 25 he has just 1 career season of more than 10 goals.
Ever so slightly different backgrounds @mooneyman and I doubt whether Dayle Southwell scored two goals in four games for England U17s. I think Muskwe will prove to be a valuable signing. The video of his goals showed at least one with an assist from Josh Knight (playing in midfield) so, if Stewart and Tafazolli become a partnership, we could see something similar. Certainly hope so.
(...)instead of substituting Uche for Bayo to have both on the pitch for the last 30 minutes. Probably wouldn't work, but would be interesting to see with JJ hitting free kicks and corners to them.
I think this has been tried once or twice this season? It didn’t really work. In theory the idea of both of them causing mayhem in the box is a good one, but in practice most refs are pretty quick to blow up against them.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
So yes I do believe Ainsworth will get it right. I’m just not as impatient as some to ask for it to be now.
That’s not actually what he asked though is it. And it’s not impatient to suggest after 26 games of the same tactic producing only 3 wins that it might be time to try something else. You seem to be answering an entirely different debate.
edit: correction - our one tactic has actually produced only one win - the other two wins when Gaz was absent we played a very different way. And won.
Here's my point again. We have more than one tactic, more than one style of play and more than one formation. I don't see this 'one tactic' argument at all. I'm not even sure what the 'one tactic' is.
Simple fact is we are in a tough league with some talented players up against us. I'm not sure any tactic can change that so we go with what has worked to get us here and play to the strengths of a squad bought together on this purpose.
I really do think you are basically calling for the managers head if you are asking him to change his core values.
@Right_in_the_Middle - perhaps I’m watching different games but where are the different tactics and style of play you elude to. I and a number of other posters are only seeing the big hoof forward quickly as our main style , with no plan B. We are not calling for his head. We are calling for him to be braver and try something different. Like play on the floor and through midfield.
@davecz said: @Right_in_the_Middle - perhaps I’m watching different games but where are the different tactics and style of play you elude to. I and a number of other posters are only seeing the big hoof forward quickly as our main style , with no plan B. We are not calling for his head. We are calling for him to be braver and try something different. Like play on the floor and through midfield.
We have three or four different midfield set ups and can and do play either 1, 2 or 3 up front.
You’re not calling for Ainsworth’s head (I assume others haven’t named you their spokesman) but you want him to change his core values and set a team up in a way he never has before. Sounds like you want a different manager to me.
Firstly do you not accept that Gareth has played differently in the past? It's not true that he's never set his team up differently - what about the 2014-5 season where we played a 442?
Secondly if you don't think we have played differently this season under Gareth do you then agree with my theory that the matches where he was recovering from his back surgery, when we played very differently and won two matches, was due to it being Richard Dobson on the touchline?
And thirdly, I think it's a bit unfair for you to suggest Gareth won't ever change his style. All managers adapt to the circumstances they find themselves in. He may well have decided that the squad this season necessitates a safety first, hoof up to the big man style. But if we go down and he decides he has a squad that can compete with the best in League One by playing it on the ground, I fully expect Gareth to adapt his style to accommodate that.
@Right_in_the_Middle GA has played many different styles, formations and approaches. In fact he and Richard Dobson have been lauded for their analysis of opposition and situations and adapting to find solutions.
I would say his Core values are hard work and respect, and being open minded to different ways to fix different problems. Doesn’t mean occasionally he gets it wrong. On Saturday the final ball and delivery of set pieces meant that Wycombe offered very little threat at all. I’m sure that’s being looked at.
Did we really play that much differently in the Sheffield Wed and Birmingham games managed by Dobbo? If I remember correctly, Sheffield W was a Wheeler goal from a JJ corner and then a solid defensive performance, whilst Birmingham was a relatively typical away performance from us where we snatched it late on. I don't remember us playing particularly differently in either game.
Dobbo was also wearing an ear piece on the bench in both matches which at the time I assumed was a direct line through to Ainsworth. I don't think it's something he usually wears anyway.
The game I'd argue that's been the biggest standout this season was Preston in the cup, but that wasn't because we changed our style, more that we ramped up the intensity level against an opponent who looked disinterested.
Yes, this idea that we played a different style against Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham A is surely a myth? There was nothing spectacular about our win against Wednesday, just a gritty backs to the wall effort following a set piece goal. Birmingham we did play well, but there was plenty of long balls up to Bayo, mixed in with some good football on the deck. Pretty much what we try to do in most games when our confidence is up, as it was at that point?
@Last_Quarter said:
The game I'd argue that's been the biggest standout this season was Preston in the cup, but that wasn't because we changed our style, more that we ramped up the intensity level against an opponent who looked disinterested.
It also needs to be remembered that Preston rested most of their regular first team.
The more we get whacked the less likelihood /point there is of trying to set up to keep it tight unless you're only doing it for damage limitation, unfortunately with the games coming so fast, a bit of injury rotation and limited time on the training ground I can't see the general approach changing too much.
Agree with above though, Difference against Preston was just that it worked, we were 2 up before any special measures would have been considered.
Comments
Thing is I'm pretty sure GA and the players will believe they can still turn this around. Whilst I and many other supporters will see this as highly improbable, the last thing I'd expect or indeed want to see is throwing in the towel and using the rest of the season to experiment with various players, tactics, formations. They will I hope believe that a huge amount can still happen in 20 games.
If we're relegated with 5-10 games still to go, then I'm sure we will see a few different options tested. Now however, is not the right time.
I am not convinced with our current squad we can do anything different that will work at this level @drcongo.
To maximise our chances of picking up points we have to play to our strengths and/or exploit the oppositions weaknesses. With our midfielders, however well they play, we cannot expect to outpass the likes of Brentford, Swansea etc. In those type of matches our best chances is to try and bypass midfield. However, against sides like Birmingham we should have taken the opportunity to get the ball down and played a bit more which we didn't do.
One of our strengths is from from set plays, so in that respect we have been badly hit with JJ's injury. Kashket and Uche are our only natural goalscorers so I could not get my head round Kaskets omission yesterday. Bayo is only really effective in plan B if Kashket is alongside him, so his arrival on the pitch yesterday was totally ineffective.
One experiment I would like to see in certain matches where the opposition's defence is not physically strong or good in the air, would be instead of substituting Uche for Bayo to have both on the pitch for the last 30 minutes. Probably wouldn't work, but would be interesting to see with JJ hitting free kicks and corners to them.
The other point which others have raised is we now have two good wingers, but I believe we have the narrowest pitch in the league so don't fully benefit from their ability. Why do we do this.
I agree with Wycombe85, until it’s mathematically impossible to stay up this is not the time to give up and start chucking in untested young players. However, that is not to say there is anything wrong with tweaking the tactics with a view to getting the wins we so desperately need.
I think Horgan is one of the best players Wycombe have ever had on a permanent deal and if we do go down and he sticks around then he will be a massive handful for league 1 defences.
@drcongo - totally agree , we have 20 free games to try something different.
@Right_in_the_Middle - can you honestly say the managers way is working.
If Horgan and Mcleary did stick around for a season in League One, I would like to see the pitch returned to its original dimensions.
McCleary isn't the pace meister he was in his prime though, and Horgan isn't a traditional winger, so I'm not sure we would do that.
I’m not sure what you expected this season. I thought it would be a tough battle and have actually been surprised both how tough and how we’ve competed in most games. We’ve hit a bit of a tough patch and I’m not throwing anyone under the bus.
So yes I do believe Ainsworth will get it right. I’m just not as impatient as some to ask for it to be now.
Well said RITM, spot on.
McCleary has signed a contract extension, so he'll be here for sure.
That’s not actually what he asked though is it. And it’s not impatient to suggest after 26 games of the same tactic producing only 3 wins that it might be time to try something else. You seem to be answering an entirely different debate.
edit: correction - our one tactic has actually produced only one win - the other two wins when Gaz was absent we played a very different way. And won.
I’m still not convinced we know what to do with Horgan. When he gets wide and does simple things he’s really effective. When he comes inside he can be really creative (his assist v PNE). But why does he not do it consistently? Is he told to roam or is that his thing? He seemed to hold width yesterday in the first half then wandered more as the game went on. An undoubted talent and a worker. Just needs tweaking. Just like Freeman.
He's the type of player who needs a lot of ball, and smart players running into space and working off him.
I don't think we've seen even 25% of what he's capable of.
Are you a subscriber to the Aloysius theory that when Gareth was incapacitated with his back problem he had no influence over team selection and tactics? If so, I can assure you that you are very much mistaken. He and Dobbo work in tandem and have the greatest respect for each other’s opinions. Everything they do they do as a partnership.
No, I’m not. However we did keep the ball on the ground in those games and played some attractive and very effective football.
Re McCleary, we said the same thing about Nathan Tyson a few years ago and we were amazed at how little his pace had declined. He was younger then than McCleary is now.
Although Horgan has been given (or taken upon himself) a more roving role, I think he is essentially a winger, like McCleary. I’d love to see them played as such, Horgan on the left and McCleary on the right.
@mooneyman says that Uche and Kashket are our only natural goalscorers.
The Admiral might take exception to that, having been (I’m pretty sure) a prolific goalscorer for Leicester Under 23s. Big step up, physically, of course but we’ve already seen evidence of his ability to be in the right place at the right time.
@drcongo does the definition of insanity include saying the same thing over and over and over again for months on a football forum? Just asking for a few Gasroomers
OK to clarify @micra "proven Football League" goalscorers. Dayle Southwell was a prolific scorer at Boston, but a damp squib when he moved to Adams Park.
Proven goal scorer is always an interesting turn of phrase.
Uche offers a lot, but by 25 he has just 1 career season of more than 10 goals.
Ever so slightly different backgrounds @mooneyman and I doubt whether Dayle Southwell scored two goals in four games for England U17s. I think Muskwe will prove to be a valuable signing. The video of his goals showed at least one with an assist from Josh Knight (playing in midfield) so, if Stewart and Tafazolli become a partnership, we could see something similar. Certainly hope so.
(...)instead of substituting Uche for Bayo to have both on the pitch for the last 30 minutes. Probably wouldn't work, but would be interesting to see with JJ hitting free kicks and corners to them.
I think this has been tried once or twice this season? It didn’t really work. In theory the idea of both of them causing mayhem in the box is a good one, but in practice most refs are pretty quick to blow up against them.
Here's my point again. We have more than one tactic, more than one style of play and more than one formation. I don't see this 'one tactic' argument at all. I'm not even sure what the 'one tactic' is.
Simple fact is we are in a tough league with some talented players up against us. I'm not sure any tactic can change that so we go with what has worked to get us here and play to the strengths of a squad bought together on this purpose.
I really do think you are basically calling for the managers head if you are asking him to change his core values.
@Right_in_the_Middle - perhaps I’m watching different games but where are the different tactics and style of play you elude to. I and a number of other posters are only seeing the big hoof forward quickly as our main style , with no plan B. We are not calling for his head. We are calling for him to be braver and try something different. Like play on the floor and through midfield.
We have three or four different midfield set ups and can and do play either 1, 2 or 3 up front.
You’re not calling for Ainsworth’s head (I assume others haven’t named you their spokesman) but you want him to change his core values and set a team up in a way he never has before. Sounds like you want a different manager to me.
@Right_in_the_Middle three points.
Firstly do you not accept that Gareth has played differently in the past? It's not true that he's never set his team up differently - what about the 2014-5 season where we played a 442?
Secondly if you don't think we have played differently this season under Gareth do you then agree with my theory that the matches where he was recovering from his back surgery, when we played very differently and won two matches, was due to it being Richard Dobson on the touchline?
And thirdly, I think it's a bit unfair for you to suggest Gareth won't ever change his style. All managers adapt to the circumstances they find themselves in. He may well have decided that the squad this season necessitates a safety first, hoof up to the big man style. But if we go down and he decides he has a squad that can compete with the best in League One by playing it on the ground, I fully expect Gareth to adapt his style to accommodate that.
@Right_in_the_Middle GA has played many different styles, formations and approaches. In fact he and Richard Dobson have been lauded for their analysis of opposition and situations and adapting to find solutions.
I would say his Core values are hard work and respect, and being open minded to different ways to fix different problems. Doesn’t mean occasionally he gets it wrong. On Saturday the final ball and delivery of set pieces meant that Wycombe offered very little threat at all. I’m sure that’s being looked at.
Did we really play that much differently in the Sheffield Wed and Birmingham games managed by Dobbo? If I remember correctly, Sheffield W was a Wheeler goal from a JJ corner and then a solid defensive performance, whilst Birmingham was a relatively typical away performance from us where we snatched it late on. I don't remember us playing particularly differently in either game.
Dobbo was also wearing an ear piece on the bench in both matches which at the time I assumed was a direct line through to Ainsworth. I don't think it's something he usually wears anyway.
The game I'd argue that's been the biggest standout this season was Preston in the cup, but that wasn't because we changed our style, more that we ramped up the intensity level against an opponent who looked disinterested.
Yes, this idea that we played a different style against Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham A is surely a myth? There was nothing spectacular about our win against Wednesday, just a gritty backs to the wall effort following a set piece goal. Birmingham we did play well, but there was plenty of long balls up to Bayo, mixed in with some good football on the deck. Pretty much what we try to do in most games when our confidence is up, as it was at that point?
It also needs to be remembered that Preston rested most of their regular first team.
The more we get whacked the less likelihood /point there is of trying to set up to keep it tight unless you're only doing it for damage limitation, unfortunately with the games coming so fast, a bit of injury rotation and limited time on the training ground I can't see the general approach changing too much.
Agree with above though, Difference against Preston was just that it worked, we were 2 up before any special measures would have been considered.