@ReadingMarginalista - it is my own point of view of course, but refusing to support your own team for a game because of hatred for the away team is surely the very definition of negative passion trumping positive passion? I do appreciate your perspective, and you develop your points well. I also completely agree about the need to stand against removing a club from it's home - I just think that when it comes to what shape that takes, people should stand on their own principles, rather than expecting others to refuse to say a name, or boycott games. (I really don't find being compared to @DevC an insult either - I have no problem with him at all.)
On the BBC south thing, the Oxford transmitter moved away from London into the BBC south region twenty odd years ago. I suppose people saw themselves as more southern than Londoners. Looks like High Wycombe is very close to the border. Club may be in “London” but many in the area get there signal from Oxford.
On the subject of positive versus negative support, Scunny fans were an example on Saturday. Needing to win their game and Southend lose on Saturday, they nonetheless loudly cheered Southend being ahead at half time as that was bad news for opponents Plymouth also. I don’t understand that mentality. Mind you I don’t understand either the two Plymouth fans who invaded the pitch to flick v signs at scunny fans after 10 minutes of a crucial game and unsurprisingly got thrown out. Weird.
Particularly as their opening 'regional map' shows Princes Risborough, High Wycombe and indeed pictures of Wycombe Town Center. Someone once told me that we are considered by the Beeb to be a 'London' club!
Edit to say: This comment is a little out of phase as I hadn't seen the extra page when I added my comment to page 2. Must pay attention and try harder!
@ValleyWanderer said:
MK Dons were founded (relocated?) in 2004. I do not agree or like the idea of franchising, however, it happened for whatever reason and now 15 years have passed and both MKD and Wimbledon have moved on. Personally, I feel that MKD should consider a name change to MK Town (City if they get that eventually) or AFC MK, to further distance themselves from the past.
@ValleyWanderer, there is currently a Milton Keynes City FC, a junior boys and girls club. In fact, their U-16 girls team were at Adams Park yesterday for the B & B Cup Final and lost 14-0 (fourteen) to Tilehurst Panthers.
Before them were two other MK City Clubs, the first from 1974-85, who we played in the B & B, and who were previously known as Bletchley & WIPAC and Bletchley Town, and the second from from 1998-2003, originally a Sunday League team called Mercedes-Benz FC. They folded when Franchise came into being. Both clubs aimed to represent MK as a whole but couldn't get the interest of the locals.
MK is not a city, so why would you call yourself City anyway?
@Shev We'll have to agree to disagree. Taking a stand against something patently wrong isn't 'negative' where I come from. I choose to call them 'Franchise' as their use of the 'Dons' sobriquet is a permanent reminder of the club that they destroyed. Their using it is like someone stealing the identity of someone they've murdered and then parading around in public like nothing's happened. You might think it's petty, but that's your own prerogative.
It's something that particularly hits very close to home as our own chairman, shortly before the whole sorry episode, himself threatened to move Wycombe Wanderers to MK because he was disappointed with attendances at Adams Park. At the time it was taken as an idle threat, though when Wimbledon FC was unceremoniously tossed into the dustbin of history it made a fair few wonder how close our club was to being torn away from South Bucks.
No one is forcing or expecting anyone to not attend. I appreciate there isn't the consensus for organising a boycott, but why should anyone set on going be offended if someone on an internet forum says they won't attend because they don't want to give Winkleman & co. a single penny?
@ValleyWanderer said:
MKD have a huge community program and development structure, including disabled sport which can only be a good thing for both football and the local community.
They could have done that if they started from scratch and went up the leagues like everyone else has had to do since the prevailing pyramid structure was put in place. Fig leaves like that out don't make their buying of a place in the 2nd tier of English football any less of a disgrace.
It is true that one cannot bury the past........British Imperialism included. The lessons of history should perhaps be used for the education, illumination and guidance of future generations rather than just continued and festering dislike/hatred. Principals are important but they must develop and adapt and not be set in stone or we would all still be in the dark ages. I hope we do not ever see another franchising episode or indeed anything similar, however, league football has sold it's sole to money and the fat cats in control will no doubt have ideas based purely on profit.
I doubt the MKD programs are there just as a fig leaf (they have a substantial following anyway so who are they trying to impress?) more likely, it is sound commercial and community sense. I wish WWFC were in a similar position financially and could then have a similar program (and squad!).
My issue with this argument about personal boycotts, etc is that it’s hitting the wrong targets. The fault for this trampling over football history and culture should, in my view, lie mainly with the FA and Football League for accepting something that was patently unacceptable.
I don’t blame Winkleman for trying to pull a stunt like he did (well I do but...) but chairmen will almost always put themselves first. The custodians of the game should have been strong enough to have told him where to go.
And I know Beeks said what he said but no way did he mean it. A lot of his role has been about polishing his ego. He’d hardly have been popular in the town if he had really planned on uprooting it. To me it was the owners equivalent of tearing up your season ticket after a 3-0 home loss to cheltenham.
@eric_plant said:
They don't have a substantial following
Well the average home league attendance this season was 8,224 and although not huge like Sunderland, I'd say that was pretty substantial. 20,718 were at Saturday's match. Wycombe's average is 5,389.
@bookertease You are certainly right to say that the FA and FL could have nipped the situation in the bud, but their panel of three on their appeals panel overturned the original unanimous decision to reject uprooting Wimbledon FC to Milton Keynes.
This Guardian article from seven years ago has a good overview of the FA and FL's treacherous role in the whole debacle:
With regards as to whether a person boycott is the right course of action, from my point of view those looking to prey on struggling Football League clubs are put off by adverse publicity and supporters staying away. The moment that Franchise are treated as any other legitimate football club is the moment that the door is opened for it to happen again. It's a moot point as to whether the sustained campaigning by supporters of various clubs has put paid to it ever happening again, or at the other end of the scale football supporters in general are too apathetic to care anymore.
Re: Beeks, whether he meant those words or not, it still left me and many other Wanderers with a big sinking feeling with that quote echoing in our heads when the announcement was made that Koppel and Winkleman had been allowed to destroy Wimbledon and allow Milton Keynes to effectively buy a place high up in the Football League.
@eric_plant said:
They don't have a substantial following
Well the average home league attendance this season was 8,224 and although not huge like Sunderland, I'd say that was pretty substantial. 20,718 were at Saturday's match. Wycombe's average is 5,389.
Yeah, was going to say, we can't exactly knock them when we get about 3,500 hard core fans, a bunch of floaters and the bigger away teams swelling our numbers!
@ValleyWanderer said:
MK Dons were founded (relocated?) in 2004. I do not agree or like the idea of franchising, however, it happened for whatever reason and now 15 years have passed and both MKD and Wimbledon have moved on. Personally, I feel that MKD should consider a name change to MK Town (City if they get that eventually) or AFC MK, to further distance themselves from the past.
@ValleyWanderer, there is currently a Milton Keynes City FC, a junior boys and girls club. In fact, their U-16 girls team were at Adams Park yesterday for the B & B Cup Final and lost 14-0 (fourteen) to Tilehurst Panthers.
Before them were two other MK City Clubs, the first from 1974-85, who we played in the B & B, and who were previously known as Bletchley & WIPAC and Bletchley Town, and the second from from 1998-2003, originally a Sunday League team called Mercedes-Benz FC. They folded when Franchise came into being. Both clubs aimed to represent MK as a whole but couldn't get the interest of the locals.
MK is not a city, so why would you call yourself City anyway?
The B & B game against City was in 81/82, when we beat them 4-2 at home in the SF. The more important against them was in 74/75, when we won 2-0 at home in the FA Cup 2QR, on our way to Middlesbrough in the Third Round. We also played them in the Shaw & Kilburn Floodlit league in 77/78, winning 2-0 at home and 1-0 away.
Sadly had he started club from scratch and risen through the leagues with a captive population MK could have been a massive success. On the issue of franchising I think the fact that it has been such a divisive issue would make it unlikely to happen again. Fingers crossed. If I was them I would rename the team as MK Franchise. Do wonders for merchandise sales!
@NewburyWanderer said: @micra Blackbird Leys FC. Same logic as the old Headington United. Nickname "The Joyriders".
MK Dons apart, I dislike any nicknaming of football clubs. “The Franchise” is fully justified. It’s a fact. It’s a one-off and extremely unlikely to be repeated. But I’d prefer it if they discarded the “Dons” bit.
Comments
It doesn’t infuriate me but I do get tired of otherwise seemingly mature and reasonable people referring to Oxford United as Poxford.
@ReadingMarginalista - it is my own point of view of course, but refusing to support your own team for a game because of hatred for the away team is surely the very definition of negative passion trumping positive passion? I do appreciate your perspective, and you develop your points well. I also completely agree about the need to stand against removing a club from it's home - I just think that when it comes to what shape that takes, people should stand on their own principles, rather than expecting others to refuse to say a name, or boycott games. (I really don't find being compared to @DevC an insult either - I have no problem with him at all.)
@ValleyWanderer as the voice of reason, as so often!
On the BBC south thing, the Oxford transmitter moved away from London into the BBC south region twenty odd years ago. I suppose people saw themselves as more southern than Londoners. Looks like High Wycombe is very close to the border. Club may be in “London” but many in the area get there signal from Oxford.
On the subject of positive versus negative support, Scunny fans were an example on Saturday. Needing to win their game and Southend lose on Saturday, they nonetheless loudly cheered Southend being ahead at half time as that was bad news for opponents Plymouth also. I don’t understand that mentality. Mind you I don’t understand either the two Plymouth fans who invaded the pitch to flick v signs at scunny fans after 10 minutes of a crucial game and unsurprisingly got thrown out. Weird.
How about Headington, @micra? An acceptably playful reference, with a nod to their illustrious non-League past...?
Particularly as their opening 'regional map' shows Princes Risborough, High Wycombe and indeed pictures of Wycombe Town Center. Someone once told me that we are considered by the Beeb to be a 'London' club!
Edit to say: This comment is a little out of phase as I hadn't seen the extra page when I added my comment to page 2. Must pay attention and try harder!
@micra , plucky non leaguers better?
@ValleyWanderer, there is currently a Milton Keynes City FC, a junior boys and girls club. In fact, their U-16 girls team were at Adams Park yesterday for the B & B Cup Final and lost 14-0 (fourteen) to Tilehurst Panthers.
Before them were two other MK City Clubs, the first from 1974-85, who we played in the B & B, and who were previously known as Bletchley & WIPAC and Bletchley Town, and the second from from 1998-2003, originally a Sunday League team called Mercedes-Benz FC. They folded when Franchise came into being. Both clubs aimed to represent MK as a whole but couldn't get the interest of the locals.
MK is not a city, so why would you call yourself City anyway?
@micra Blackbird Leys FC. Same logic as the old Headington United. Nickname "The Joyriders".
@Shev We'll have to agree to disagree. Taking a stand against something patently wrong isn't 'negative' where I come from. I choose to call them 'Franchise' as their use of the 'Dons' sobriquet is a permanent reminder of the club that they destroyed. Their using it is like someone stealing the identity of someone they've murdered and then parading around in public like nothing's happened. You might think it's petty, but that's your own prerogative.
It's something that particularly hits very close to home as our own chairman, shortly before the whole sorry episode, himself threatened to move Wycombe Wanderers to MK because he was disappointed with attendances at Adams Park. At the time it was taken as an idle threat, though when Wimbledon FC was unceremoniously tossed into the dustbin of history it made a fair few wonder how close our club was to being torn away from South Bucks.
No one is forcing or expecting anyone to not attend. I appreciate there isn't the consensus for organising a boycott, but why should anyone set on going be offended if someone on an internet forum says they won't attend because they don't want to give Winkleman & co. a single penny?
They could have done that if they started from scratch and went up the leagues like everyone else has had to do since the prevailing pyramid structure was put in place. Fig leaves like that out don't make their buying of a place in the 2nd tier of English football any less of a disgrace.
It is true that one cannot bury the past........British Imperialism included. The lessons of history should perhaps be used for the education, illumination and guidance of future generations rather than just continued and festering dislike/hatred. Principals are important but they must develop and adapt and not be set in stone or we would all still be in the dark ages. I hope we do not ever see another franchising episode or indeed anything similar, however, league football has sold it's sole to money and the fat cats in control will no doubt have ideas based purely on profit.
I doubt the MKD programs are there just as a fig leaf (they have a substantial following anyway so who are they trying to impress?) more likely, it is sound commercial and community sense. I wish WWFC were in a similar position financially and could then have a similar program (and squad!).
They don't have a substantial following
My issue with this argument about personal boycotts, etc is that it’s hitting the wrong targets. The fault for this trampling over football history and culture should, in my view, lie mainly with the FA and Football League for accepting something that was patently unacceptable.
I don’t blame Winkleman for trying to pull a stunt like he did (well I do but...) but chairmen will almost always put themselves first. The custodians of the game should have been strong enough to have told him where to go.
And I know Beeks said what he said but no way did he mean it. A lot of his role has been about polishing his ego. He’d hardly have been popular in the town if he had really planned on uprooting it. To me it was the owners equivalent of tearing up your season ticket after a 3-0 home loss to cheltenham.
Exactly - the proud conference history of the three-sided ones is to be celebrated - the PNLs they are and always must be.
Well the average home league attendance this season was 8,224 and although not huge like Sunderland, I'd say that was pretty substantial. 20,718 were at Saturday's match. Wycombe's average is 5,389.
They give away a lot of tickets
When they inevitably slide out of the league they will fold like a pack of cards
We 'give away a lot of tickets' to under 12's.
@bookertease You are certainly right to say that the FA and FL could have nipped the situation in the bud, but their panel of three on their appeals panel overturned the original unanimous decision to reject uprooting Wimbledon FC to Milton Keynes.
This Guardian article from seven years ago has a good overview of the FA and FL's treacherous role in the whole debacle:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/nov/17/afc-wimbledon-mk-dons-grievances
With regards as to whether a person boycott is the right course of action, from my point of view those looking to prey on struggling Football League clubs are put off by adverse publicity and supporters staying away. The moment that Franchise are treated as any other legitimate football club is the moment that the door is opened for it to happen again. It's a moot point as to whether the sustained campaigning by supporters of various clubs has put paid to it ever happening again, or at the other end of the scale football supporters in general are too apathetic to care anymore.
Re: Beeks, whether he meant those words or not, it still left me and many other Wanderers with a big sinking feeling with that quote echoing in our heads when the announcement was made that Koppel and Winkleman had been allowed to destroy Wimbledon and allow Milton Keynes to effectively buy a place high up in the Football League.
Yeah, was going to say, we can't exactly knock them when we get about 3,500 hard core fans, a bunch of floaters and the bigger away teams swelling our numbers!
We've been around for over 130 years. Our support is well established.
They are a passing fad
The B & B game against City was in 81/82, when we beat them 4-2 at home in the SF. The more important against them was in 74/75, when we won 2-0 at home in the FA Cup 2QR, on our way to Middlesbrough in the Third Round. We also played them in the Shaw & Kilburn Floodlit league in 77/78, winning 2-0 at home and 1-0 away.
Thanks for the detailed response @ReadingMarginalista.
The key point for me is your comment:
“The moment that Franchise are treated as any other legitimate football club is the moment that the door is opened for it to happen again.”
Really hard to argue against that statement.
Sadly had he started club from scratch and risen through the leagues with a captive population MK could have been a massive success. On the issue of franchising I think the fact that it has been such a divisive issue would make it unlikely to happen again. Fingers crossed. If I was them I would rename the team as MK Franchise. Do wonders for merchandise sales!
MK Dons apart, I dislike any nicknaming of football clubs. “The Franchise” is fully justified. It’s a fact. It’s a one-off and extremely unlikely to be repeated. But I’d prefer it if they discarded the “Dons” bit.
@micra , so you don't even like our lovely choirboys tag?
Prefer Chairboys.
I suppose I should have said derogatory nicknaming @Malone .