The club seemingly lost £36m over the course of their ownership but they still made a profit selling it on to Mel Morris. So very successful for American Partners LLP, less so for the football club.
If their proposal turns out to be running up a debt of millions before selling it on to a successful local business man, I have a pretty good idea who that local businessman might be. And he’s already got the training ground off us.
No. It’s funny that. He’s been replying to a load of other threads today, but ignoring this one despite having insider knowledge that we're not privy to.
I haven’t yet read the whole of your link which is lengthy and complicated but my first impression was that the article contained the author’s opinions mixed in with facts and statistics which may have influenced the conclusions that were drawn. Incidentally, as you and Mr Harps are busy monitoring who has replied to what, perhaps you’d like to ask Nicecarrots why he is yet to reply to RITM’s post. To refresh your memory, he asked why Nicecarrots hadn’t asked the questions at the last Trust forum that he has constantly alluded to on here about Mr Stroud and his relationship with Beachdean.
Why don't you ask Mr Nice Carrots yourself, as personally it doesn't bother me how people ask questions, via email or in person.
But it clearly bother's you ?
You have completely missed the point, perhaps deliberately. It was RITM who posted the question and his issue was that although Nicecarrots was happy to make accusations on the Gasroom (nothing to do with emails) he failed to make them at the Trust forum.
My point was that if you were curious why I hadn’t responded to DrCongo’s post then I was not alone in that respect.
And whilst you have taken on the role of grammar policemen, may I politely point out that there is no apostrophe in bothers and your final sentence was a statement so did not require a question mark. However, your first sentence was a question so did require a question mark. Apologies for being pedantic.
I’ve read back through this thread @glasshalffull but I can’t find any of the stuff you’re alluding to. I did however find that post where you described an extra £36m of debt as “better shape”, and with tremendous irony, accused me of not checking my facts.
I’m still curious, is £36m more debt than they started with “better shape”?
I have now read the article you linked to more thoroughly.
My thoughts are this:
The article is written anonymously (author named as The Baron) in a publication (Price of Football) that I’ve never heard of so I have no idea how credible the information is.
He/she has certainly inserted a great deal of personal opinion and interpretation of figures into their conclusions. Doesn’t make it right, doesn’t make it wrong, but it fails to give the club or Derby’s past or present owners the opportunity to answer or explain any of the points raised.
Most of the questions asked about the club’s methods of accounting etc referred to season 2016-17, some two years after ‘the Americans’ had left.
They sold Derby to Mr Mel Morris in September 2015 and at the time Mr Morris had this to say to the Guardian newspaper, a publication I’m sure we’re all familiar with:
‘I pay tribute to North American ownership who collectively provided the finance and leadership stability the club needed following the traumatic times which followed the 2007-08 season in the Premier League.
They have been terrific to work with.’
@ChasHarps in fairness there's quite a difference between making "comments" on this board against someone who doesn't frequent it, to asking the person in the flesh.
@glasshalffull - Mel Morris's tribute specifically refers to "providing the finance" so logically, unless the money was a gift from the Americans, it had to be via loans putting the club in further debt. I accept the additional finance may have necessary, but Derby with their extra support and Championship status are in a better financial position to service any debt than we would be.
That is what worries me about the American's bid for our club. Once we have sight of the actual bid (assuming we do), I will have to be totally convinced before I vote in favour of it.
I simply posted the quote from Mr Morris to give some context and evidence that their tenure at Derby wasn’t necessarily a total disaster. I should also point out that when ‘the Americans’ were involved at Derby it was through their company and as part of a bigger consortium. Their proposed involvement at WWFC is as two individuals, Bill Luby and Jim Collis.
Anyway, in case I’m accused of ignoring questions, I now have some work to do so I’m signing off for the night.
Sorry, I don't know how to do the link malarkey but this is posted above on this thread and is essential reading for those who want to know why "a couple of shmos"/two private equity investors want to buy our club.
One thing remembering as to why Wycombe is that we are far less indebted than most football league clubs.
I still look back over the past few weeks (soon to become months &) wonder. Anyone that stands against the status quo is wrong, why do we do it? Maybe just because we believe. I am getting bored of the arguments. 3 choice, US, Harman or admin leading to non league. There is no silver bullet, 7 years of trust ownership with chancers as investors, Howard circuled like a vulture in 2012 wanting the catering contract. There were others.
I am tired. What do you want? I think I have 1 more battle in me. We won before. What do you want to win now???
@2longinthetooth said:
I still look back over the past few weeks (soon to become months &) wonder. Anyone that stands against the status quo is wrong, why do we do it? Maybe just because we believe. I am getting bored of the arguments. 3 choice, US, Harman or admin leading to non league. There is no silver bullet, 7 years of trust ownership with chancers as investors, Howard circuled like a vulture in 2012 wanting the catering contract. There were others.
I am tired. What do you want? I think I have 1 more battle in me. We won before. What do you want to win now???
You sound like you are brexit fatigued, beware jumping into something you don't want or understand because its all been going on too long.
Where to start. Fighting for the club invelves getting out there physically, inelectually or monetarily to give WWFC team, fans and patrons as much for their experience as poss. To say that AH hung around to secure our catering contract is disingenious. To say that for seven years the board has been looking out for themselves over WWFC is also far fetched. Ironically you are the one standing for the statis quo albeit seeing those last seven years as a series of battles.
Be bored of the arguments but always be willing to give of yourself to the Wanderers. We do in our oen way on here; being more involved is the only way to either retain control of the club within our means or let the new charges know how passionate we are about seeing Wycombe succeed on and off the putch.
This snow shovelling business is something the Norwegianns call "dugnad"; something we need in abundance to retain our identity as Wycombe Wanderers. To remain in our own hands we must involve ourselves in the club ever more, that's what being Fan owned is really all about.
@2longinthetooth said:
I still look back over the past few weeks (soon to become months &) wonder. Anyone that stands against the status quo is wrong, why do we do it? Maybe just because we believe. I am getting bored of the arguments. 3 choice, US, Harman or admin leading to non league. There is no silver bullet, 7 years of trust ownership with chancers as investors, Howard circuled like a vulture in 2012 wanting the catering contract. There were others.
I am tired. What do you want? I think I have 1 more battle in me. We won before. What do you want to win now???
There you go again with this first line. It's not by any means fact.
As for the second line, it's an example of how this whole situation is so hard to get a handle on, as there's so many grudges, mateships and smears going on from different sides.
Comments
I’m turning blue from holding my breath here.
@drcongo, interesting stuff but what's the connection between SevCo 5112 with two directors listed as Christopher & Melvyn Morris and the Americans?
Bottom of the article @twizz, there’s a financials table from the last few years of the American Partners LLP ownership.
As far as I can see the nett accrued losses increased 2009 to 2015 from £30m to £66m. Is this a successful tenure?
The club seemingly lost £36m over the course of their ownership but they still made a profit selling it on to Mel Morris. So very successful for American Partners LLP, less so for the football club.
If their proposal turns out to be running up a debt of millions before selling it on to a successful local business man, I have a pretty good idea who that local businessman might be. And he’s already got the training ground off us.
By the way @glasshalffull, if you put me in charge and let me run up £36m in debts I reckon I could make a couple of improvements too.
Mr Glasshalffull not responded yet ?
No. It’s funny that. He’s been replying to a load of other threads today, but ignoring this one despite having insider knowledge that we're not privy to.
I haven’t yet read the whole of your link which is lengthy and complicated but my first impression was that the article contained the author’s opinions mixed in with facts and statistics which may have influenced the conclusions that were drawn. Incidentally, as you and Mr Harps are busy monitoring who has replied to what, perhaps you’d like to ask Nicecarrots why he is yet to reply to RITM’s post. To refresh your memory, he asked why Nicecarrots hadn’t asked the questions at the last Trust forum that he has constantly alluded to on here about Mr Stroud and his relationship with Beachdean.
You could just look at the numbers at the bottom of that page.
Beachdean ? Surely a man renowned for his accurate reporting would have known the correct name of our former shirt sponsor.
No, let’s be very clear, the third option (assuming you mean continued Trust ownership) does not mean non-league.
My mistake for not checking that predictive text had spelt it incorrectly, but a convenient way for you to dodge the question that I posted.
Why don't you ask Mr Nice Carrots yourself, as personally it doesn't bother me how people ask questions, via email or in person.
But it clearly bother's you ?
You have completely missed the point, perhaps deliberately. It was RITM who posted the question and his issue was that although Nicecarrots was happy to make accusations on the Gasroom (nothing to do with emails) he failed to make them at the Trust forum.
My point was that if you were curious why I hadn’t responded to DrCongo’s post then I was not alone in that respect.
And whilst you have taken on the role of grammar policemen, may I politely point out that there is no apostrophe in bothers and your final sentence was a statement so did not require a question mark. However, your first sentence was a question so did require a question mark. Apologies for being pedantic.
I’ve read back through this thread @glasshalffull but I can’t find any of the stuff you’re alluding to. I did however find that post where you described an extra £36m of debt as “better shape”, and with tremendous irony, accused me of not checking my facts.
I’m still curious, is £36m more debt than they started with “better shape”?
Play nice!
I have now read the article you linked to more thoroughly.
My thoughts are this:
The article is written anonymously (author named as The Baron) in a publication (Price of Football) that I’ve never heard of so I have no idea how credible the information is.
He/she has certainly inserted a great deal of personal opinion and interpretation of figures into their conclusions. Doesn’t make it right, doesn’t make it wrong, but it fails to give the club or Derby’s past or present owners the opportunity to answer or explain any of the points raised.
Most of the questions asked about the club’s methods of accounting etc referred to season 2016-17, some two years after ‘the Americans’ had left.
They sold Derby to Mr Mel Morris in September 2015 and at the time Mr Morris had this to say to the Guardian newspaper, a publication I’m sure we’re all familiar with:
‘I pay tribute to North American ownership who collectively provided the finance and leadership stability the club needed following the traumatic times which followed the 2007-08 season in the Premier League.
They have been terrific to work with.’
@ChasHarps in fairness there's quite a difference between making "comments" on this board against someone who doesn't frequent it, to asking the person in the flesh.
@glasshalffull - Mel Morris's tribute specifically refers to "providing the finance" so logically, unless the money was a gift from the Americans, it had to be via loans putting the club in further debt. I accept the additional finance may have necessary, but Derby with their extra support and Championship status are in a better financial position to service any debt than we would be.
That is what worries me about the American's bid for our club. Once we have sight of the actual bid (assuming we do), I will have to be totally convinced before I vote in favour of it.
I simply posted the quote from Mr Morris to give some context and evidence that their tenure at Derby wasn’t necessarily a total disaster. I should also point out that when ‘the Americans’ were involved at Derby it was through their company and as part of a bigger consortium. Their proposed involvement at WWFC is as two individuals, Bill Luby and Jim Collis.
Anyway, in case I’m accused of ignoring questions, I now have some work to do so I’m signing off for the night.
drcongo
February 9
http://priceoffootball.com/derby-county-respectable/
Sorry, I don't know how to do the link malarkey but this is posted above on this thread and is essential reading for those who want to know why "a couple of shmos"/two private equity investors want to buy our club.
One thing remembering as to why Wycombe is that we are far less indebted than most football league clubs.
May I add that AP is worth today £8m. Can we screw around with this?
I still look back over the past few weeks (soon to become months &) wonder. Anyone that stands against the status quo is wrong, why do we do it? Maybe just because we believe. I am getting bored of the arguments. 3 choice, US, Harman or admin leading to non league. There is no silver bullet, 7 years of trust ownership with chancers as investors, Howard circuled like a vulture in 2012 wanting the catering contract. There were others.
I am tired. What do you want? I think I have 1 more battle in me. We won before. What do you want to win now???
You sound like you are brexit fatigued, beware jumping into something you don't want or understand because its all been going on too long.
Where to start. Fighting for the club invelves getting out there physically, inelectually or monetarily to give WWFC team, fans and patrons as much for their experience as poss. To say that AH hung around to secure our catering contract is disingenious. To say that for seven years the board has been looking out for themselves over WWFC is also far fetched. Ironically you are the one standing for the statis quo albeit seeing those last seven years as a series of battles.
Be bored of the arguments but always be willing to give of yourself to the Wanderers. We do in our oen way on here; being more involved is the only way to either retain control of the club within our means or let the new charges know how passionate we are about seeing Wycombe succeed on and off the putch.
This snow shovelling business is something the Norwegianns call "dugnad"; something we need in abundance to retain our identity as Wycombe Wanderers. To remain in our own hands we must involve ourselves in the club ever more, that's what being Fan owned is really all about.
POTD @NorsQuarters
There you go again with this first line. It's not by any means fact.
As for the second line, it's an example of how this whole situation is so hard to get a handle on, as there's so many grudges, mateships and smears going on from different sides.
I’d like to hear @glasshalffull say “nice carrots” at some point during his next commentary.