@eric_plant Maybe one of the reasons crowds are like that at cricket is because they're treated with respect and credited with intelligence in the first place, creating a more cordial atmosphere where it is safe for them to drink in the stands, whereas football fans are routinely treated like some sort of human powderkeg. I believe in sociology it's called a 'self-fulfilling prophecy', although I got an E so maybe don't take my word for it.
I think the 1985 rule is pretty outdated as football crowds have come a long way since what was obviously a pretty dark period for the sport. Unfortunately, as I have often argued, football fans are still quite overtly treated as a lower class and in this age of progress and modernity it is still apparently acceptable for this to be the case. Notice that no-one's talking about banning alcohol sales at racecourses despite the well-publicised consistent outbreaks of violence at meetings, some very serious with people being beaten unconscious. There has also been a marked increase in cases of hooliganism at rugby grounds, but they haven't banned alcohol there either. Don't think that classism does't play a part here.
Whether it's fans of other sports, people attending a concert or festival, or even political demonstrations, I believe no other large group of people are treated in such a draconian manner in this country as football fans, whether it's restrictions on alcohol, restriction of movement, or heavy-handed treatment by police or stewards.
Unfortunately we've been made to believe that it is 'our' fault we're treated this way and I believe that is reflected in some of the comments above.
@Jonny_King "There has also been a marked increase in cases of hooliganism at rugby grounds"
has there?
I don't disagree at all that over the years football fans have been treated appallingly by the authorities.
The fact remains though that I have been to football, cricket, rugby, ice hockey, horse racing, athletics, darts, boxing, tennis, cycling (there must be others but you get the point) and the worst behaviour I have seen by a million miles is at football.
That said, that's just one person's experience and it must be added that I have been to hundreds and hundreds of football matches and at the vast majority there has been no trouble whatsoever
I was just making the general point that the same people behave differently at different sports. I do myself. I wouldn't even necessarily want to change it particularly. I quite like the fact that you can have different experiences at different events
@Jonny_King you're not wrong...all valid points which is exactly why, personally, I think it's safer to keep booze out of the grounds for our own good, not because it necessarily will lead to more anti-social shenannigans inside but because the slightest incident with the slightest hint that 20mls of drink was a possible cause...it will be a case of - 'you see what happens when you let yobs have a drink at the football...not like at Twickers/The Oval/Wimbledon etc.
(When I lived Berkshire way for a short period some of the drunken scenes on the stations and trains pre- and post Ascot 'Ladies Day (!! ) would make the 1970s football specials look pale...)
totally agree @Jonny_King, @eric_plant is arguing that I’m being simplistic by asking for a measured introduction of something that’s pretty much available around the ground and up to kickoff I would just allow patrons to take plastic beakers to seating areas. I’d argue the opposite is true and how much more simplistic can you get than thinking football supporters are as a whole a different breed unable to cope with the heady mix of the beautiful game and a pint.
@Wendoverman I don’t see your argument the alcohol is in the ground already you can buy a pretty horrible plastic bottle of lager in the concourse under the FA and have been able to for years.
I have a dream that one day I could buy a pint of a local ale, perhaps Rebellion or something from the Chiltern brewery and walk to my seat to watch the game surrounded by the usual mix of confused OAPs and even more confused irregular attendees that are searching for a particular seat in a row of twenty unoccupied ones without being pepper sprayed and frogmarched out of the ground
@Morris_Ital said:
totally agree @Jonny_King, @eric_plant is arguing that I’m being simplistic by asking for a measured introduction of something that’s pretty much available around the ground and up to kickoff I would just allow patrons to take plastic beakers to seating areas. I’d argue the opposite is true and how much more simplistic can you get than thinking football supporters are as a whole a different breed unable to cope with the heady mix of the beautiful game and a pint.
No I wasn't
I was saying that it is simplistic to argue that if people behave a certain way at one event then they would behave in exactly the same way at another
@Morris_Ital I know it's in the ground...but you know what I mean about being in the stands or on the terrace. Twenty men with sculpted hair in suits and pink braces having a punch-up under the royal box at Ascot is high spirits...football fan trips and spills his Speckled Hen on a steward means lifetime ban and the authorities ' just the sort of terrible incident we were worried about...'
@eric_plant they cheer, they clap, they chant, they swear, and there’s even a drummer, what the hell are you doing at football matches that’s different and how would being able to sit and sip a beer make it worse. @Wendoverman There’s always going to be people who oppose social change with the excuse that “they” couldn’t cope with the extra responsibility, what would happen is that a couple of years down the line we would wonder why we didn’t change it earlier (with the exception of Eric who’s behaviour would change inexplicably.)
@Morris_Ital I celebrate your optimism about both human nature and the relevant authorities! I will gladly drink four or five pints in your honour if it comes about!
@Jonny_King ,you seem surprised that people treat football fans with suspicion.
While there are the types who walk in big menacing groups, often chanting offensive stuff outside grounds, and who can "kick off" at any time, it's right for that to continue.
You surely do not get that in any other sport.
Other sports seem to give off a "it'd be nice to win, but doesn't really matter" sort of vibe, which is why fans seem to be able to mix in, have booze etc.
Only issue that I forsee is that football is tribal which gets exaggerated when fuelled by booze when one side feels very wronged. I stopped going in the 80s because of the terrace battles and we were allowed to drink whilst watching. Think it might be worth a new trial run though.
I probably misremember this but i’m sure I was able to buy a beer during the game from a bar at the top of the terrace at Orient on a very hot last game of the season in the mid 90’s.
On the more general point I find it hard to imagine that adding a 90 minute drinking window will have a particularly adverse effect for those whose football & drinking combined experience is often approaching 12 hours and may have a benefit for the club and those whose primary experience is the football but are also quite happy to include overly priced, cooled and fizzy ‘beer’ at the same time.
But perceptions and prejudices being what they are it will probably (wrongly in my view) be seen as a step too far to treat football fans as actual people. (And I know a minority probably don’t deserve to be, but as others have said this should be a manageable problem).
In all seriousness I say trial it if permitted- get a licence, try it in the Beechdean and see how it goes. Potential revenue increaser assuming the licence and possibly extra stewarding required and staff to pull pints don’t outweigh sales revenue. Which thinking about it, they might well....
I usually drink 2 or 3 pints in the Vere. Being able to drink outside isn't going to make me drink more. Consequently for the extra outlay @Manboobs suggests the club are not going to make any money out of me in fact with the extra costs they will lose.
I may be in the minority and most supporters will drink more, but I would suggest that you would need to sell a lot more beer for it to be financially advantageous for the club. You have to also factor in that a significant percentage of fans drive to the game.
Comments
@mooneyman I wasn't planning on going, but now I know it's a living football museum...
@eric_plant Maybe one of the reasons crowds are like that at cricket is because they're treated with respect and credited with intelligence in the first place, creating a more cordial atmosphere where it is safe for them to drink in the stands, whereas football fans are routinely treated like some sort of human powderkeg. I believe in sociology it's called a 'self-fulfilling prophecy', although I got an E so maybe don't take my word for it.
I think the 1985 rule is pretty outdated as football crowds have come a long way since what was obviously a pretty dark period for the sport. Unfortunately, as I have often argued, football fans are still quite overtly treated as a lower class and in this age of progress and modernity it is still apparently acceptable for this to be the case. Notice that no-one's talking about banning alcohol sales at racecourses despite the well-publicised consistent outbreaks of violence at meetings, some very serious with people being beaten unconscious. There has also been a marked increase in cases of hooliganism at rugby grounds, but they haven't banned alcohol there either. Don't think that classism does't play a part here.
Whether it's fans of other sports, people attending a concert or festival, or even political demonstrations, I believe no other large group of people are treated in such a draconian manner in this country as football fans, whether it's restrictions on alcohol, restriction of movement, or heavy-handed treatment by police or stewards.
Unfortunately we've been made to believe that it is 'our' fault we're treated this way and I believe that is reflected in some of the comments above.
At my age urinating freely is something from days gone by
@Jonny_King "There has also been a marked increase in cases of hooliganism at rugby grounds"
has there?
I don't disagree at all that over the years football fans have been treated appallingly by the authorities.
The fact remains though that I have been to football, cricket, rugby, ice hockey, horse racing, athletics, darts, boxing, tennis, cycling (there must be others but you get the point) and the worst behaviour I have seen by a million miles is at football.
That said, that's just one person's experience and it must be added that I have been to hundreds and hundreds of football matches and at the vast majority there has been no trouble whatsoever
I was just making the general point that the same people behave differently at different sports. I do myself. I wouldn't even necessarily want to change it particularly. I quite like the fact that you can have different experiences at different events
@Jonny_King you're not wrong...all valid points which is exactly why, personally, I think it's safer to keep booze out of the grounds for our own good, not because it necessarily will lead to more anti-social shenannigans inside but because the slightest incident with the slightest hint that 20mls of drink was a possible cause...it will be a case of - 'you see what happens when you let yobs have a drink at the football...not like at Twickers/The Oval/Wimbledon etc.
(When I lived Berkshire way for a short period some of the drunken scenes on the stations and trains pre- and post Ascot 'Ladies Day (!! ) would make the 1970s football specials look pale...)
totally agree @Jonny_King, @eric_plant is arguing that I’m being simplistic by asking for a measured introduction of something that’s pretty much available around the ground and up to kickoff I would just allow patrons to take plastic beakers to seating areas. I’d argue the opposite is true and how much more simplistic can you get than thinking football supporters are as a whole a different breed unable to cope with the heady mix of the beautiful game and a pint.
@Morris_Ital you've obviously not been to Derby
@Wendoverman I don’t see your argument the alcohol is in the ground already you can buy a pretty horrible plastic bottle of lager in the concourse under the FA and have been able to for years.
I have a dream that one day I could buy a pint of a local ale, perhaps Rebellion or something from the Chiltern brewery and walk to my seat to watch the game surrounded by the usual mix of confused OAPs and even more confused irregular attendees that are searching for a particular seat in a row of twenty unoccupied ones without being pepper sprayed and frogmarched out of the ground
No I wasn't
I was saying that it is simplistic to argue that if people behave a certain way at one event then they would behave in exactly the same way at another
@Morris_Ital I know it's in the ground...but you know what I mean about being in the stands or on the terrace. Twenty men with sculpted hair in suits and pink braces having a punch-up under the royal box at Ascot is high spirits...football fan trips and spills his Speckled Hen on a steward means lifetime ban and the authorities ' just the sort of terrible incident we were worried about...'
@eric_plant they cheer, they clap, they chant, they swear, and there’s even a drummer, what the hell are you doing at football matches that’s different and how would being able to sit and sip a beer make it worse.
@Wendoverman There’s always going to be people who oppose social change with the excuse that “they” couldn’t cope with the extra responsibility, what would happen is that a couple of years down the line we would wonder why we didn’t change it earlier (with the exception of Eric who’s behaviour would change inexplicably.)
@Morris_Ital I celebrate your optimism about both human nature and the relevant authorities! I will gladly drink four or five pints in your honour if it comes about!
@Morris_Ital presumably you'd do away with segregation at football as well then?
Huzzah @Wendoverman i’ll stand you two of those
Do you need to be segregated @eric_plant?
cool
Have a good weekend
@Morris_Ital do you watch much football other than Wycombe games out of interest?
As others are alluding to, I enjoy segregation.
I dislike violence and anti-social behaviour, but I think league football is a richer experience for segregation.
@peterparrotface yes why do you ask?
Just curious
@Jonny_King ,you seem surprised that people treat football fans with suspicion.
While there are the types who walk in big menacing groups, often chanting offensive stuff outside grounds, and who can "kick off" at any time, it's right for that to continue.
You surely do not get that in any other sport.
Other sports seem to give off a "it'd be nice to win, but doesn't really matter" sort of vibe, which is why fans seem to be able to mix in, have booze etc.
@peterparrotface is that the “just curious” of someone that knows someone or just curious.
Not sure what you mean, genuinely curious how you find football supporters at other grounds. I don't have an opinion either way.
Only issue that I forsee is that football is tribal which gets exaggerated when fuelled by booze when one side feels very wronged. I stopped going in the 80s because of the terrace battles and we were allowed to drink whilst watching. Think it might be worth a new trial run though.
Judging by the seats at the far side of the Woodlands, you can still take a shit at your seat...
If you’re a bird.
I probably misremember this but i’m sure I was able to buy a beer during the game from a bar at the top of the terrace at Orient on a very hot last game of the season in the mid 90’s.
On the more general point I find it hard to imagine that adding a 90 minute drinking window will have a particularly adverse effect for those whose football & drinking combined experience is often approaching 12 hours and may have a benefit for the club and those whose primary experience is the football but are also quite happy to include overly priced, cooled and fizzy ‘beer’ at the same time.
But perceptions and prejudices being what they are it will probably (wrongly in my view) be seen as a step too far to treat football fans as actual people. (And I know a minority probably don’t deserve to be, but as others have said this should be a manageable problem).
A tale of two halves......
If this comes to pass can I bring a hip flask instead of a tea flask?
And why are flasks allowed in when a can of coke isn’t? Does the accompanying tartan blanket make a difference?
In all seriousness I say trial it if permitted- get a licence, try it in the Beechdean and see how it goes. Potential revenue increaser assuming the licence and possibly extra stewarding required and staff to pull pints don’t outweigh sales revenue. Which thinking about it, they might well....
I usually drink 2 or 3 pints in the Vere. Being able to drink outside isn't going to make me drink more. Consequently for the extra outlay @Manboobs suggests the club are not going to make any money out of me in fact with the extra costs they will lose.
I may be in the minority and most supporters will drink more, but I would suggest that you would need to sell a lot more beer for it to be financially advantageous for the club. You have to also factor in that a significant percentage of fans drive to the game.