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  • I'm not sure of the business/financial wisdom, but I have enjoyed the last few seasons enormously and the League One games I've seen so far, win lose or draw, have all been exciting to watch and we've seen - and have - some exciting players. It's a tricky balance. All hail Gareth!

  • When comparing with previous historic years, you do have to bear in mind the fall off in attendances that coincided for some reason with the trust taking over.

    1993-9 First six years averaged 5280
    1999-2005 next six averaged 5597
    2005-2012 next seven averaged 5018

    Then
    2012-2017 first five trust averaged 3869

    Those 1300 lost supporters per game per season is worth around half a million pounds gate money per season.

    Last season its good to see that average attendance recovered to 4705 helped no doubt by a promotion season and some bumper gates towards the end. Sadly that increased average attendance hasn't really translated into an improved financial performance.

  • results are everything.

    For all speculation and various contributory factors often tabled in business and football to explain relegations, poor runs of form, failing finances etc . Results are key,

    Managers win games they stay , lose games they are sacked.

    Same ultimately applies to off pitch financial performance and management.

    £1,029,903 profit year ending June 2017.
    £648,396 loss year ending June 2018z

    Our football club board of A Howard , D cook, I beeks, T Stroud and M Burrell have presided over a negative turnaround of £1,678,299 over two reporting periods

    On results , they have failed the club in a huge way.

    Worse, net liabilities were only £112,430 at June 2017 and are now £779,689 in June 2018.

    Frightening.

    Cash at hand has plummeted from £449,334 to just £172,192

    Whilst our creditors are owed £346,483 more now than the same time last year

    Outside of trade creditors we owe £769,491 to “ other creditors “ due in the next 12 months - these need explaining - to who ? Who are these people and in what terms and when did our FC board approve we go into debt with ?

    We owe an additional £387,500 to other creditors falling due after the next 12 months which by definition will be chairboy funder abd other schemes so it won’t be them ...

    The board has cleverly reported costs of sales and revenue centres in large “cover all “ columns such as “cost of sales “ and “administrative expenses “..

    so we cannot see the decline in commercial sales , increases is staff costs etc that show why and how this trade deficit and overall poorly performing off pitch club has created this poor position.

    REMEMBER. In November 2017 mid way through this reporting period that these poor figures rejected to , MARK BURRELL and TREVOR STROUD stood as directors of this company in front of an AGM if members and stated they had turned the financial performance around , our debts were solved , and we were “THRIVING”

    Not my words , theirs .

    Discuss..

  • edited October 2018

    Most football clubs reward their players/coaching staff for success on the pitch via bonuses. I see no reason why Wycombe's player contracts would not include such provisions, and probably more so, if the basic wages are relatively low.

    I think it is likely therefore that promotion will have cost the club a substantial sum through these extra payments and it may go some way to contributing towards part of the financial loss last season.

    It would be interesting to know the accumulative bonus figure.

  • @mooneyman , CMS and Saunders were on a reported 5k and 8k a week at their last clubs. Now while I don't think either could hope to get anywhere near that now, it'd be quite surprising if both weren't at the top of our pay scale.

  • Well @marlowchair , given that the 2016/7 were an alltime record financial performance due to the very large receipt from the Jordan Ibe sell-on, it is hardly surprising that the bottom line result in 2017/8 declined. Unless of course you hold the board responsible for not producing an Ibe transfer every year.

    Lose £600k and net assets/liabilities will decline - that's how it works.

    The accounts are in exactly the same format as they are every year - standard accounting practise.

    There are undoubtedly sustainability issues which the board have recommended a way to address. You suggest a different approach but as ever lack detail and evidence. We have been over this ground many times before. if you have evidence that a different approach will work, we would all no doubt be interested to hear it.

  • edited October 2018

    so @marlowchair given those figures which are, of the face of it, truly frightening...do you think it is possible that ANYONE would be able to get us out of the **** without some substantial outside investment/investors? (This is genuine question not a Dev challenge...)

  • edited October 2018
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @DevC said:
    When comparing with previous historic years, you do have to bear in mind the fall off in attendances that coincided for some reason with the trust taking over.

    1993-9 First six years averaged 5280
    1999-2005 next six averaged 5597
    2005-2012 next seven averaged 5018

    Then
    2012-2017 first five trust averaged 3869

    Those 1300 lost supporters per game per season is worth around half a million pounds gate money per season.

    Last season its good to see that average attendance recovered to 4705 helped no doubt by a promotion season and some bumper gates towards the end. Sadly that increased average attendance hasn't really translated into an improved financial performance.

    The level we are playing at would be the biggest factor in our average attendance wouldn't it?

    Since we've been in the football league our average League 1 attendance is 5,407. Our average League 2 attendance is 4,562

  • edited October 2018

    Not sure that tells the story eric. between 1993 and 2012 (20 seasons) on only three occasions did the attendance fall below 4900 and never below 4500.

    In the first five years of trust ownership never did it rise above 4050 until last year.

    many a lg2 season enjoyed a much higher attendance pre trust than what we initially achieved post trust (apart from last season).

    The drop seems to be related to ownership. I don't really understand why that should be, but it seems to be the case.

    (Figures by the way come from http://www.chairboys.co.uk/history/adamspark-attendances.htm and http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/league-two/besucherzahlen/wettbewerb/GB4/saison_id/2017)

  • Regarding loss supporters, it was a general feeling that we lost between 500 and 1000 supporters in the Wasps era. From 1994 we were in League 1( was league 2) for 12 years and had a good Cup run in 2001. TV continues to reduced the number of spectators who come to lower league grounds.

  • @Wendoverman said:
    so @marlowchair given those figures which are, of the face of it, truly frightening...do you think it is possible that ANYONE would be able to get us out of the **** without some substantial outside investment/investors? (This is genuine question not a Dev challenge...)

    It might be too late such is the mismanagement that had led to those figures . We as members should consider our options very carefully in terms of being told one thing at an AGM by directors when another thing was clearly unfolding and must have been known to them.

    What I suggest is what I have maintained-good governance and a measured, transparent approach, objective decision making.

    We are in no position to evaluate potential investor options. As a club we have no idea of our worth , so how can we secure a good deal from
    Any sale ?

    We must remove those responsible for creating the current poor position these figures demonstrate .

    Have a fresh board examine the current situation at a dysfunctional management structure ( off pitch ) , and present options after going to open market once having quantified our actual prospects.

    Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas. Our current board have overseen this huge decline, they even misled us telling us we were thriving less then 12 months ago.

    They MAY have run us optimally , they may be running us poorly.

    Until that huge variable has some objective , unbiased , third party eyes cast over it, we can never look each other in the eye and say we are furnished with enough information to consider different models for the future of our club .

  • @wformation

    that's not really borne out by the figures.

    Lg1 total attendances are flat between 2004/7 and 2015/8 (oldest data I can find can most recent seasons) and lg2 up by 10%. obviously depends a little on what teams are in what division but no sign of reducing attendances year on year.

    No sign either of a wasps effect either when they came or when they left that I can see.

  • @marlowchair said:

    The board has cleverly reported costs of sales and revenue centres in large “cover all “ columns such as “cost of sales “ and “administrative expenses “..

    That is pretty unfair. As @DevC points out, this is standard accounting presentation. Furthermore, there is no statutory need for the P&L to even be included (it is removed in the version which has been filed with Companies House) so they are giving more information that they actually legally need to.

  • @DevC said:
    Not sure that tells the story eric. between 1993 and 2012 (20 seasons) on only three occasions did the attendance fall below 4900 and never below 4500.

    In the first five years of trust ownership never did it rise above 4050 until last year.

    many a lg2 season enjoyed a much higher attendance pre trust than what we initially achieved post trust (apart from last season).

    The drop seems to be related to ownership. I don't really understand why that should be, but it seems to be the case.

    (Figures by the way come from http://www.chairboys.co.uk/history/adamspark-attendances.htm and http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/league-two/besucherzahlen/wettbewerb/GB4/saison_id/2017)

    Before you declare the drop entirely down to ownership, have you bothered to look at the overall lower league attendance trends of other clubs over the same period?

  • @DevC There is no way that my statement re the loss to Wasps can be verified by looking at the figures. However conversations in Wycombe with former supporters who no longer came to matches in the main stated that they now watched Wasps rather than the Chairboys. The total number cannot be calculated but it was a figure that I believe was generally accepted at Adams Park. After they left we struggled for a couple of seasons but maybe the recent increase is due to some of them returning. Certainly if we keep winning at home the crowds will increase.

  • For the last 2 years I have donated to the club each month, when I asked about this year I was told “we have decided not to run the scheme this year”
    Why not, if as is being suggested we are in the mucky stuff every penny helps.

  • be careful of "generally accepted " figures @wformation. They don't always reflect reality. I guess we'll never know. Certainly doesn't seem to have been a bounce when they left (apart from last season when the average increased significantly).

    generally @OxfordBlue , lower league attendances have been on a minor upward curve. Nothing like the drop we experienced and sustained immediately after trust ownership. I cant see any reason why ownership itself would have reduced numbers but there must have been something in play that caused those figures. obviously the first season was dire on the field but subsequently pretty good.

  • @fame_46 said:
    @peterparrotface

    Fair point, I'm not privvy to all that is going inside the club. What I can see is living in the community and bring very active, I rarely see commercial marketing of the club.

    Gareth Ainsworth does most of it via local media when he talks of drumming up crowd numbers for the game.

    I'm pretty sure if you walk into the urinals you can see posters up from circa 2015. My point is that if there is commercial management it's not great and it's certainly not as visible as it should be.

    The profit margins on catering and commercial activities are good. Also an increased gates of 300-500 people per year could be achieved with the right approach.

    I'm not saying it will cover the full deficit year on year but it would make a difference and grow the awareness in the local community.

    Any club that is privately owned will have a clear agenda and blueprint on what they want to achieve for a ROI. In my opinion fan owned clubs need the same to be sustainable, as the end goal differs.

    All fair and interesting comment. And the 2016/17 fixture list outside Montys is a bugbear of mine too, wonder if the plastic case is locked or something.

  • @FmG said:

    @marlowchair said:

    The board has cleverly reported costs of sales and revenue centres in large “cover all “ columns such as “cost of sales “ and “administrative expenses “..

    That is pretty unfair. As @DevC points out, this is standard accounting presentation. Furthermore, there is no statutory need for the P&L to even be included (it is removed in the version which has been filed with Companies House) so they are giving more information that they actually legally need to.

    I think our expectations of our board as a supporters trust owner club are that more than statutory requirements should be provided . Full disclosure where not bound by commercial in confidence is surely the basic requirement of a trust owned club ?

  • @peterparrotface said:

    @fame_46 said:
    @peterparrotface

    Fair point, I'm not privvy to all that is going inside the club. What I can see is living in the community and bring very active, I rarely see commercial marketing of the club.

    Gareth Ainsworth does most of it via local media when he talks of drumming up crowd numbers for the game.

    I'm pretty sure if you walk into the urinals you can see posters up from circa 2015. My point is that if there is commercial management it's not great and it's certainly not as visible as it should be.

    The profit margins on catering and commercial activities are good. Also an increased gates of 300-500 people per year could be achieved with the right approach.

    I'm not saying it will cover the full deficit year on year but it would make a difference and grow the awareness in the local community.

    Any club that is privately owned will have a clear agenda and blueprint on what they want to achieve for a ROI. In my opinion fan owned clubs need the same to be sustainable, as the end goal differs.

    All fair and interesting comment. And the 2016/17 fixture list outside Montys is a bugbear of mine too, wonder if the plastic case is locked or something.

    Agreed, an excellent post indeed.

  • Talking of "bugbears", mine is the missing cistern over the urinal in the bog in the Beechdean. It's been missing for months. Don't want an outbreak of some tropical disease akin to a post earthquake region! :-)

  • What @EwanHoosaami said - given the average age in the Beechdean it could take quite a few of us out...and then where would attendances be!

  • Had a genuine LOL at @marlowchair 's attempt to blame not getting a second huge Ibe windfall on the current Trust board. I am guessing you don't really grasp the information given in the accounts.
    Also worth remembering Balance Sheets are just a snapshot in time. Hard to make judgements without more detail.
    The underlying losses taking out player sales are pretty consistent over time and, to answer @trevor 's point are funded at other clubs by owner cash.
    Finally promotion bonuses were discussed at the last minute. I am guessing they outweighed the excitement of the ride to promotion that has lured potential investors. They will increase the loss but are hopefully balanced a fair bit by increased income in the next financial year.

  • Does anyone know what salaries these guys command

  • @yorkyblue said:
    For the last 2 years I have donated to the club each month, when I asked about this year I was told “we have decided not to run the scheme this year”
    Why not, if as is being suggested we are in the mucky stuff every penny helps.

    We are not running the 500 Club again at this stage but will review should the need to enter into business during January transfer window arise.

    You can still donate monthly into The Trust if you wish, or buy community shares through the Share Scheme. Email me [email protected] if you want to know more.

  • If you are looking for positive progress in the current set of accounts, there is an improvement in the loss per attendance from 2016/7 to 2017/8.

    Trading loss before profit on disposal of Player registrations is as follows:

    Operating loss 2017 = £888,164 ave att: 3917 = £226.75
    Operating loss 2018 + £680,455 Ave Att: 4705 =£144.62

  • That's simply what you'd expect when attendance increases. If the attendance was high enough, it would turn into a 'profit per attendance'; and if it was lower the loss per attendance would be higher. Not really a useful indicator of anything.

  • Correlation and causation are very different things @DevC. Next you’ll be telling us that Nicholas Cage causes drowning deaths.

  • All we need now is for @OakwoodExile to pile in with a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" and we can mark the thread closed

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