As far as I can see nobody is suggesting that a no swearing policy be introduced, that would be ridiculous. However there is a difference between common place swearing and threatening behaviour. If I call someone a cunt it's ok, but if I say I am going to knock your fucking lights out, that in my view is beyond acceptability.
Why extraordinary eric_plant ? I painted a picture of a likely scenario . It appears that some on here would accept it as part of the match experience but I bet there are plenty on here who would not . Do you find it acceptable ? or realistic to think it could be stopped without banning half the crowd ?
@Right_in_the_Middle - I think you either misunderstood my post, or you are a very sensitive and prim individual. If you think that a non swearing rule could be implemented at Adams Park or any other football ground, then I am afraid you are also deluded. Threatening behaviour can, and should be dealt with by our club
My earlier comment related to conduct in the ground only. Swearing in football grounds is not a new phenomena and has been present probably long before you were born. I was on a train to Brighton on Saturday on which there were a number of Geordies (many of which were over 50 years old) on their way to the match and every other word was a swear word. However I never felt threatened and they happily chatted to me. To be honest I would feel less threatened in their company, than with some of our own Mr Stoke's like supporters
@mooneyman Not that sure you are following me either. I'm not really bothered with most swearing. There are a few kids around me at home games so I try not to but the last few minutes of the Luton game might have tested that.
Where we are probably confused is that swearing generally is very different to swearing at someone directly. I would say that your example was abusive and uncalled for. I would probably have punched you if you had said it to me. Shouting it in to the general direction of a player is not so bad although I would never use the word you have used. I don't think that is acceptable in any circumstance. Does that make me prim? So be it
The comment by @Right_in_the_Middle that, in the absence of certain elements of the crowd, "... the silent void will be filled with support and cheering from others. It will probably be more consistent, louder and from all sides of the terrace or ground," resonates with me.
I like to join in with songs and chants to encourage the team, as do my children. Prone to spontaneous eruptions of shouting encouragement, I also historically have joined in with the "Chairboys! Barmy Army!!", "Since I was young", "1-0 to the Wanderers", type stuff when others in the crowd have started it off. Increasingly, however, as the less pleasant chanting has increased, I have been joining in less and less. I can't get over the feeling that, by joining in with the group when they start innocuous chants, I could be seen to be supportive of, or at least not opposed to, their less pleasant ones. My young son has definitely become very wary of joining in chants when they have been started by the more "boisterous" element, lest others may think he is or has aspirations to be part of the pack.
On a related note, there is a big difference IMO between singing that "We hate Col U" and calling them "Scum", and singing that we should kick a Col U fan's "f*!cking head in". Banter is one thing; exhorting violence is another and should be considered completely unacceptable in what is supposed to be a family environment (and yes, a family environment is indeed what WWFC aims to provide). If I was in charge at the club anyone seen or heard to be singing the latter vile chant would be banned for life.
@mooneyman I think calling someone a c@#nt is a direct verbal threat and I for one would receive it so and would likely resort to instant physical violence in reply as would the majority of people. I don't use that word even when referring to DDH!
@Right_in_the_Middle - Your likely reaction to me swearing at you mirrors the Pierre incident and we know who ended up with the most grief. I would certainly not resort to violence if someone swore at me, but I accept we all have different views and reactions. If DDH reacted like you and @EwanHoosaami he would have very sore hands!
@mooneyman, in what way is that ok? That's the sort of entitlement attitude that sees people have zero respect for others, and leads to those who are so used to being abusive in the crowd situation, start to believe it's acceptable outside a ground.
Could you imagine they banned these youngsters reeking "havoc" on match days. The players certainly wouldn't be tweeting praising our vocal support that's for sure.
@IanBeale If the players had witnessed the scenes outside of the ground after the match prior to tweeting their praise, I suspect they would have thought twice about what they tweeted.
@Uncle_T said:
IanBeale If the players had witnessed the scenes outside of the ground after the match prior to tweeting their praise, I suspect they would have thought twice about what they tweeted.
I witnessed the happenings post victory on Saturday. A few verbals exchanged between opposing sets of supporters. Hardly scenes out of football factory.
By far the best outcome would be for the "yoof" to consistently stay on the right side of the line, not tarnish the reputation of the club, continue to travel to far flung grounds and by noisy and be friendly ambassadors for the club. At times at away games, I have been "proud" of them and the way they conduct themselves, at times less so.
If they can do that, that would be great, but sadly they continue to let themselves down.
If they cant, it comes down to the club making a choice between at times noisy support
and at times cringeworthy stupidity that damages the club and its supporters reputation or cracking down and losing both.
So far to be fair the club has chosen to accept the status quo. I think that is pretty shameful but it is for the club and the trust to make that choice.
@DevC said:
No you are right, ian. it would be a real shame.
By far the best outcome would be for the "yoof" to consistently stay on the right side of the line, not tarnish the reputation of the club, continue to travel to far flung grounds and by noisy and be friendly ambassadors for the club. At times at away games, I have been "proud" of them and the way they conduct themselves, at times less so.
If they can do that, that would be great, but sadly they continue to let themselves down.
If they cant, it comes down to the club making a choice between at times noisy support
and at times cringeworthy stupidity that damages the club and its supporters reputation or cracking down and losing both.
So far to be fair the club has chosen to accept the status quo. I think that is pretty shameful but it is for the club and the trust to make that choice.
Agree with most of your points in this. I just feel as though they are unfairly targeted by individuals on this page. Their efforts at most games have to be applauded in generating an atmosphere. Getting over excited at Colchester, yes not really needed but it's rare that they step out of line. I am completely against the smoke bombs however.
We have had a reasonable vocal contingent, usually more than comparable clubs in my opinion, ever since I started watching and in the days when my vocal chords didn’t object after the first shout I was very much a part of it.
Swearing was always a part of that, although not to the extent it is now, but we live in a world where ‘cunt’ is openly used on the BBC, etc without the Daily Mail throwing a wobbly, so I guess that is to be expected (if not to my tastes).
Post-Hillsborough however most of it was generally respectful. To my perception the last 2 or 3 seasons has however seen an increase in the level of abuse, not only to the opposition but also to our own supporters and players.
At away matches this seems to mainly generate from a clique of maybe a couple of dozen. When it is good-humoured (Grimsby for example) it can be quite good fun, but at other times (Colchester) it is just nasty.
If we are at the stage where we are in effect subsidising their ‘right’ to behave like idiots, then it probably is time the club took action.
I think @James point about silence is a little over-dramatic as I’m sure others will fill the void and I agree with the previous point that a little targeted keyhole surgery would probably keep the main organ reasonably healthy
Plenty of posts @DevC however not really addressing my point that defining what is unacceptable behaviour is a difficult line to draw. Perhaps as you seem to see this as such a black and white matter you can draw up a proposed code of conduct and I can let you know my thoughts?
I think each individual case needs judging on its own merits. E.g. the person letting off a pyro on Saturday should be punished and banned accordingly given the club's repeated stance on this subject.
For what it's worth I personally think the recent case of online abuse has also been handled acceptably.
@ EwanHoosaami. So you are saying you are above behaving like a yob unless someone calls you a cunt , then you would resort to physical violence ? I am 6' 4" and even I would have more self control than that . This is far worse than what the youth are being accused of in my mind . "but he called me a cunt your honor " would very likely not cut the ice .
What a weird response @mooneyman . Why don't you try going up to 10 random people at the game tonight and saying to them what you put in your original post. Let me know what happens. I'm almost sad that you think that kind of behaviour is even close to being ok. What kind of life have you had?
I am very happy to take people on a case by case basis and never judge a person except by their witnessed actions. I do not denigrate nor stereotype our more vocal supporters here - I am a more vocal than average terrace-dweller myself.
For me, while one can talk for ever about what this club or that police force or whoever should or should not do, this comes down to how individuals choose to comport themselves. Like @Uncle_T above, I love to sing in support of the team and love the spirit and sense of camaraderie it brings about. That the players seem to react to it and to genuinely appreciate it at times is a tremendous bonus and makes it worthwhile. To the extent that this singing is initiated by anyone who was part of the bus stop mob on Saturday, I am with them wholly in support of the team.
However, like @Uncle_T, I do not join in with songs that insult or abuse the opposition or their fans. I find such songs rude and stupid. They are unsupportive of the team and, instead, are only designed to denigrate. They support the mindless them-and-us attitude that is at the root of much that is wrong with football. That said, I can tolerate an amount of that every game if the payoff is a load of positive support for the team the rest of the time. The line is clearly drawn when this negative and insulting chanting carries on outside the ground and around other people. This is where those concerned have a responsibility to respect the sensibilities of their fellow citizens and comport themselves with proper consideration. There is a reason that the criminal law recognises offences involving disorderly conduct: it causes alarm and fear in those exposed to it. Every Wycombe supporter leaving the ground on Saturday would have been, as I was, well-pleased with the outcome. I fancy those least sincerely pleased for the team's success were those whose minds could think only of continuing their insulting singing. As a matter of simple human nature, when one is truly happy for any reason one is least rather than most likely to behave without consideration, no?
The behaviour of those fans outside the ground on Saturday made the experience a less pleasant one for me and I was not within close range nor on the "other" side. I am not calling anyone a hooligan. I am not belittling or dismissing a class of Wycombe supporter. There is no need for such labels or generalisations. I am saying that this behaviour was antisocial and undesirable. It was wrong, regardless of the benefits to the team that those responsible for it might bring at other times. I disassociate myself from it as strongly as I can and call on the individuals behaving in such a way to reconsider and to moderate their behaviour the next time so as to show due regard for others.
It may be a difficult line to draw, Dj (I accept that). A degree of difficulty doesn't excuse the club/trust complete failure to attempt to draw the line (pyros and possibly online abuse excepted).
As I said before, the Trust and the off-field club management (and the onfield one as it happens) have generally done a very good job in the last couple of years. In my view they have dropped the ball badly on this one though.
@bill_stickers . I tend to move between the main stand and the terrace and have done for many years . Back in the nineties I used to her homophobic , sexist and racist chants but I have to say I am scratching my head to remember any occasion in the last 10 years that I have experienced it . Unless I have missed it , you kind of prove my point . I feel that there is an over reaction to the youngsters in the terrace . They did mention the male phallus a few times not so long back but certainly not in the context that it could have been labelled anything more than immature . Things like "Luton town is a shit hole , I want to go home " or repeating "wanker" repeatedly does happen but these are chants heard at most grounds . I would not say they are particularly offensive unless you mistake Luton for a nice place or you are too sensitive .
Interested on how Dev has such strong views of how our younger fans behave and how they should be cracked down on, despite only going to watch us play Exeter once a year.
I don't mean to interrupt @DJWYC14 but can i answer that question? I don't agree with everything that @DevC has said on this thread, but he does have a point about the lack of action taken. This problem didn't start at about 5pm on Saturday. Even from afar it's easy enough to have been aware of it for the last several months, up to, and probably before the Tesco incident.
You are 100% correct that it is difficult to draw a line when it comes to public behavior. But, that doesn't mean that line shouldn't be drawn. This may be as simple as pulling the offenders to one side on a matchday and making them aware of the concerns many other fans have about their conduct, Or sending them a letter, or connecting with them on social media. This, i would have thought, would be well within the remit of the Fans' Council.
It's not actually that difficult to go to a football match, even away from home, even at ColU, and not attract the negative attention of your fellow supporters, or rouse the suspicions of the police.
Comments
Balance and reasonableness is all anyone is asking for, james.
No need for the yoof to act like chickens.
As far as I can see nobody is suggesting that a no swearing policy be introduced, that would be ridiculous. However there is a difference between common place swearing and threatening behaviour. If I call someone a cunt it's ok, but if I say I am going to knock your fucking lights out, that in my view is beyond acceptability.
that is an extraordinary post
I'm pretty sure being called that is not ok with most reasonable people. Do you really believe that @mooneyman ?
Not sure where the no swearing idea came from @James . Sounds like your moving the debate away from the areas you started trying to defend.
Why extraordinary eric_plant ? I painted a picture of a likely scenario . It appears that some on here would accept it as part of the match experience but I bet there are plenty on here who would not . Do you find it acceptable ? or realistic to think it could be stopped without banning half the crowd ?
I was referring to moneyman's post
Oh ok
@Right_in_the_Middle - I think you either misunderstood my post, or you are a very sensitive and prim individual. If you think that a non swearing rule could be implemented at Adams Park or any other football ground, then I am afraid you are also deluded. Threatening behaviour can, and should be dealt with by our club
My earlier comment related to conduct in the ground only. Swearing in football grounds is not a new phenomena and has been present probably long before you were born. I was on a train to Brighton on Saturday on which there were a number of Geordies (many of which were over 50 years old) on their way to the match and every other word was a swear word. However I never felt threatened and they happily chatted to me. To be honest I would feel less threatened in their company, than with some of our own Mr Stoke's like supporters
@mooneyman Not that sure you are following me either. I'm not really bothered with most swearing. There are a few kids around me at home games so I try not to but the last few minutes of the Luton game might have tested that.
Where we are probably confused is that swearing generally is very different to swearing at someone directly. I would say that your example was abusive and uncalled for. I would probably have punched you if you had said it to me. Shouting it in to the general direction of a player is not so bad although I would never use the word you have used. I don't think that is acceptable in any circumstance. Does that make me prim? So be it
The comment by @Right_in_the_Middle that, in the absence of certain elements of the crowd, "... the silent void will be filled with support and cheering from others. It will probably be more consistent, louder and from all sides of the terrace or ground," resonates with me.
I like to join in with songs and chants to encourage the team, as do my children. Prone to spontaneous eruptions of shouting encouragement, I also historically have joined in with the "Chairboys! Barmy Army!!", "Since I was young", "1-0 to the Wanderers", type stuff when others in the crowd have started it off. Increasingly, however, as the less pleasant chanting has increased, I have been joining in less and less. I can't get over the feeling that, by joining in with the group when they start innocuous chants, I could be seen to be supportive of, or at least not opposed to, their less pleasant ones. My young son has definitely become very wary of joining in chants when they have been started by the more "boisterous" element, lest others may think he is or has aspirations to be part of the pack.
On a related note, there is a big difference IMO between singing that "We hate Col U" and calling them "Scum", and singing that we should kick a Col U fan's "f*!cking head in". Banter is one thing; exhorting violence is another and should be considered completely unacceptable in what is supposed to be a family environment (and yes, a family environment is indeed what WWFC aims to provide). If I was in charge at the club anyone seen or heard to be singing the latter vile chant would be banned for life.
@mooneyman I think calling someone a c@#nt is a direct verbal threat and I for one would receive it so and would likely resort to instant physical violence in reply as would the majority of people. I don't use that word even when referring to DDH!
Nothing wrong with a bit of effing and jeffing on the terrace. Football is one of the last irrational great Victorian pleasures of life.
However, 90 minutes of outright unimaginative abuse is not on, along with homophobia, sexism, racism and such.
@Right_in_the_Middle - Your likely reaction to me swearing at you mirrors the Pierre incident and we know who ended up with the most grief. I would certainly not resort to violence if someone swore at me, but I accept we all have different views and reactions. If DDH reacted like you and @EwanHoosaami he would have very sore hands!
@mooneyman, in what way is that ok? That's the sort of entitlement attitude that sees people have zero respect for others, and leads to those who are so used to being abusive in the crowd situation, start to believe it's acceptable outside a ground.
ie, see the Pierre situation.
Could you imagine they banned these youngsters reeking "havoc" on match days. The players certainly wouldn't be tweeting praising our vocal support that's for sure.
@IanBeale If the players had witnessed the scenes outside of the ground after the match prior to tweeting their praise, I suspect they would have thought twice about what they tweeted.
I witnessed the happenings post victory on Saturday. A few verbals exchanged between opposing sets of supporters. Hardly scenes out of football factory.
No you are right, ian. it would be a real shame.
By far the best outcome would be for the "yoof" to consistently stay on the right side of the line, not tarnish the reputation of the club, continue to travel to far flung grounds and by noisy and be friendly ambassadors for the club. At times at away games, I have been "proud" of them and the way they conduct themselves, at times less so.
If they can do that, that would be great, but sadly they continue to let themselves down.
If they cant, it comes down to the club making a choice between at times noisy support
and at times cringeworthy stupidity that damages the club and its supporters reputation or cracking down and losing both.
So far to be fair the club has chosen to accept the status quo. I think that is pretty shameful but it is for the club and the trust to make that choice.
Agree with most of your points in this. I just feel as though they are unfairly targeted by individuals on this page. Their efforts at most games have to be applauded in generating an atmosphere. Getting over excited at Colchester, yes not really needed but it's rare that they step out of line. I am completely against the smoke bombs however.
We have had a reasonable vocal contingent, usually more than comparable clubs in my opinion, ever since I started watching and in the days when my vocal chords didn’t object after the first shout I was very much a part of it.
Swearing was always a part of that, although not to the extent it is now, but we live in a world where ‘cunt’ is openly used on the BBC, etc without the Daily Mail throwing a wobbly, so I guess that is to be expected (if not to my tastes).
Post-Hillsborough however most of it was generally respectful. To my perception the last 2 or 3 seasons has however seen an increase in the level of abuse, not only to the opposition but also to our own supporters and players.
At away matches this seems to mainly generate from a clique of maybe a couple of dozen. When it is good-humoured (Grimsby for example) it can be quite good fun, but at other times (Colchester) it is just nasty.
If we are at the stage where we are in effect subsidising their ‘right’ to behave like idiots, then it probably is time the club took action.
I think @James point about silence is a little over-dramatic as I’m sure others will fill the void and I agree with the previous point that a little targeted keyhole surgery would probably keep the main organ reasonably healthy
Sadly I don't think it is anything like rare enough.
I think action from the club and trust is way overdue.
Hopefully if and when the club acts, they will change their behaviour. I think the club may have delayed a little too long however.
Plenty of posts @DevC however not really addressing my point that defining what is unacceptable behaviour is a difficult line to draw. Perhaps as you seem to see this as such a black and white matter you can draw up a proposed code of conduct and I can let you know my thoughts?
I think each individual case needs judging on its own merits. E.g. the person letting off a pyro on Saturday should be punished and banned accordingly given the club's repeated stance on this subject.
For what it's worth I personally think the recent case of online abuse has also been handled acceptably.
@ EwanHoosaami. So you are saying you are above behaving like a yob unless someone calls you a cunt , then you would resort to physical violence ? I am 6' 4" and even I would have more self control than that . This is far worse than what the youth are being accused of in my mind . "but he called me a cunt your honor " would very likely not cut the ice .
What a weird response @mooneyman . Why don't you try going up to 10 random people at the game tonight and saying to them what you put in your original post. Let me know what happens. I'm almost sad that you think that kind of behaviour is even close to being ok. What kind of life have you had?
I am very happy to take people on a case by case basis and never judge a person except by their witnessed actions. I do not denigrate nor stereotype our more vocal supporters here - I am a more vocal than average terrace-dweller myself.
For me, while one can talk for ever about what this club or that police force or whoever should or should not do, this comes down to how individuals choose to comport themselves. Like @Uncle_T above, I love to sing in support of the team and love the spirit and sense of camaraderie it brings about. That the players seem to react to it and to genuinely appreciate it at times is a tremendous bonus and makes it worthwhile. To the extent that this singing is initiated by anyone who was part of the bus stop mob on Saturday, I am with them wholly in support of the team.
However, like @Uncle_T, I do not join in with songs that insult or abuse the opposition or their fans. I find such songs rude and stupid. They are unsupportive of the team and, instead, are only designed to denigrate. They support the mindless them-and-us attitude that is at the root of much that is wrong with football. That said, I can tolerate an amount of that every game if the payoff is a load of positive support for the team the rest of the time. The line is clearly drawn when this negative and insulting chanting carries on outside the ground and around other people. This is where those concerned have a responsibility to respect the sensibilities of their fellow citizens and comport themselves with proper consideration. There is a reason that the criminal law recognises offences involving disorderly conduct: it causes alarm and fear in those exposed to it. Every Wycombe supporter leaving the ground on Saturday would have been, as I was, well-pleased with the outcome. I fancy those least sincerely pleased for the team's success were those whose minds could think only of continuing their insulting singing. As a matter of simple human nature, when one is truly happy for any reason one is least rather than most likely to behave without consideration, no?
The behaviour of those fans outside the ground on Saturday made the experience a less pleasant one for me and I was not within close range nor on the "other" side. I am not calling anyone a hooligan. I am not belittling or dismissing a class of Wycombe supporter. There is no need for such labels or generalisations. I am saying that this behaviour was antisocial and undesirable. It was wrong, regardless of the benefits to the team that those responsible for it might bring at other times. I disassociate myself from it as strongly as I can and call on the individuals behaving in such a way to reconsider and to moderate their behaviour the next time so as to show due regard for others.
It may be a difficult line to draw, Dj (I accept that). A degree of difficulty doesn't excuse the club/trust complete failure to attempt to draw the line (pyros and possibly online abuse excepted).
As I said before, the Trust and the off-field club management (and the onfield one as it happens) have generally done a very good job in the last couple of years. In my view they have dropped the ball badly on this one though.
@bill_stickers . I tend to move between the main stand and the terrace and have done for many years . Back in the nineties I used to her homophobic , sexist and racist chants but I have to say I am scratching my head to remember any occasion in the last 10 years that I have experienced it . Unless I have missed it , you kind of prove my point . I feel that there is an over reaction to the youngsters in the terrace . They did mention the male phallus a few times not so long back but certainly not in the context that it could have been labelled anything more than immature . Things like "Luton town is a shit hole , I want to go home " or repeating "wanker" repeatedly does happen but these are chants heard at most grounds . I would not say they are particularly offensive unless you mistake Luton for a nice place or you are too sensitive .
Interested on how Dev has such strong views of how our younger fans behave and how they should be cracked down on, despite only going to watch us play Exeter once a year.
So are you going to let me know where you think the line is?
Or do you just think the club/ trust have not done enough? If not, what should have been done that hasn't?
I don't mean to interrupt @DJWYC14 but can i answer that question? I don't agree with everything that @DevC has said on this thread, but he does have a point about the lack of action taken. This problem didn't start at about 5pm on Saturday. Even from afar it's easy enough to have been aware of it for the last several months, up to, and probably before the Tesco incident.
You are 100% correct that it is difficult to draw a line when it comes to public behavior. But, that doesn't mean that line shouldn't be drawn. This may be as simple as pulling the offenders to one side on a matchday and making them aware of the concerns many other fans have about their conduct, Or sending them a letter, or connecting with them on social media. This, i would have thought, would be well within the remit of the Fans' Council.
It's not actually that difficult to go to a football match, even away from home, even at ColU, and not attract the negative attention of your fellow supporters, or rouse the suspicions of the police.