@LX1 my point was that's it's not really an issue. FIFA have interpreted their rules to conclude that it is not appropriate. That is a reasonable-ish conclusion. We should respect their decision as members of the 'club' rather than whinge about injustice or whatever it is that we are whinging about
The obvious irony in FIFA's stance is that all international players are required to display genuine political emblems on their left chests. Or across their middles in the days of the classic CCCP soviet kits
@bookertease I'm noy whingeing. Just trying to understand why a poppy is a political symbol whilst trying to keep the debate away from the hijacking from the Sun and the likes. Nobody has been able to explain this yet.
I agree it's been blown in silly directions by some parts of the media.
Isn't it sad that Remembrance Day appears to have been hijacked by those who would use it to push their own political agenda?
On one hand you've got The Sun using it to spread it's poison and Britain First attempting to turn the poppy into a symbol of racism (like the NF did with the Union Flag) and on the other you've got those who, for whatever reason, are determined to make a big song and dance about not wearing one and screaming 'Poppy facism' (not a thing) at anyone who dares to attempt to debate the issue with them.
I remember The Sun banging on last year about Jeremy Corbyn 'not bowing enough' at the Cenotaph. A complete non-story, but was all over their front page nonetheless. Personally, I found I was far more offended by The Sun using Remembrance Day to push it's own politics on people than I was by Corbyn apparently not bending his neck as much as the person stood next to him.
I like to go against what Rupert Murdoch tells me to do as much as the next fully functioning human, but it seems a shame to hear people say they wouldn't wear a poppy because of how the Sun aggressively pushes the cause. The Poppy Appeal isn't run by the The Sun. It's a very worthy charity and deserves our support.
People are free to wear or not wear a poppy as they wish and it's awful that people can't be allowed to make that choice without being scrutinised of even criticised/abused for it. My concern is that if more and more people are put off wearing a poppy, either by fear of being seen to promote right wing ideologies or for fear of being accused of 'poppy facism' (still not a thing), then it quite likely will be well and truly taken over by the racists and the bigots.
As for the wearing of white poppies, my only concern with them is - where does the money go? Presumably they're not made by the RBL, but does the money get passed on to them? Part of the reason of buying a poppy is for the money to be given to help injured servicemen and women and their families.
Personal feeling that a poppy is a personal statement of memory and its only natural for some people to feel more connected to the symbol than others due to family legacy. It is not an issue of Jonny Foreigner telling us what we can do or can't do its a clear rule that given breadth could be easily abused by some pretty horrid people.
However I do also feel that some responsibility could be taken by the players. If they want to wear a poppy armband they should and take the consequences. We have seen players raise shirts with messages and even advertise sh1t happily taking the consequences £££.
Storm in a tea cup for me
In the absence of any explanation I would suggest FIFA may be worried about the poppy deflecting attention from the McDonalds and Budweiser adverts. Or perhaps it is seen as a celebration of the Opium Wars in China?
Maybe the British Legion could give the worthy people at FIFA a modest payment in exchange for being 'Official Remembrance Provider of the FIFA World Cup'. They whore everything else out so why not?
Ideally the poppy should be an apolitical symbol of remembrance to those who lost their lives fighting for our freedom, though the way it has come to be co-opted by politicians to justify the more dubious wars our soldiers have been sent into in more recent times leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. Also the more recent trend of sporting teams incorporating the poppy on their strip seems to have coincided with this, which heightens my scepticism that the intention behind it is entirely apolitical.
I full respect those who see the poppy as what it was originally intended as, though I can also see FIFA's point of view that more benign symbols being displayed by teams will open the floodgates for less savoury ones being displayed by others.
There's some excellent posts in this thread (special mention @Jonny_King ). I'm almost tempted to go have a look at the single syllable, faux outrage that the WWFC Facebook page has probably cooked up on this issue.
I agree with you and agree with much of Jonny's post. The poppy should be a personal decision to have any meaning with no one being forced to wear or forced not to wear it by political pressure and bullying except in special circumstances (like while playing a football match in contravention of well established and sensible rules)
Jonny though denies "Poppy fascism" although I am not sure he has grasped the meaning of the term. It does not relate to the hijacking of the symbol by far right fascist groups unpleasant as that is. it does relate to the sadly increasing trend of intolerance towards those who choose not to reflected by the abuse handed out to James McClean, who has a differing view, to Jon Snow, who rebels against being forced to do anything, to Cameron who had to have a poppy airbrushed on to a photo to keep the thought police quiet, to Corbyn who rejects militaritism on conscientious grounds, even to those like the ITV presenter who doesn't want to prioritise this charity over others more dear to her and even Sienna Miller, whose poppy fell off prior to a TV appearance.
11 years ago we were grown up enough to play a friendly against a recent enemy on Nov 12th without having to wear the poppy. Those who wanted to wear the poppy did
because it meant something to them to do so, those who didn't didn't feel obliged too. What has gone wrong in the last 11 years? Why are we now obliged to make a collective show of support that we did not have to 11 years ago? Since when has Britain became so omnipotent that we can openly say we intend to flout the rules of an international body while playing in their tournament? Are we really so xenophobic that we cannot take orders from foreigners under any circumstances now? Are we so insecure that we cannot say oh well, it was just a nice gesture, doesn't stop us individually remembering the war dead if we so choose? Honestly I despair of the way this country is heading. This issue, while relatively minor, is symptomatic of a very unpleasant path we are heading down.
I think Britain has a pretty long history of thinking we are omnipotent, xenophobic and not taking orders for foreigners.
I went to a TV recording this week that will be shown after Rememberance Day and all the audience were told to remove poppies for the show.
I've not really got any rage or strong interest in our millionaire footballers wearing the poppy. It's a storm in a teacup. It would be interesting to canvas them to see how many even know what it means.
Not sure your TV experience is particularly enlightening, Righty. Go to the filming of a Christmas special in July and you'll be wearing heavy sweaters even if its 90 degrees outside.
I started this trend and perhaps the following comment from the Stoke Sentinel could perhaps be the final word
" Should you wear a poppy?
The first poppy appeal took place in 1921, a few short years after the end of the First World War.
The symbols commemorate members of the armed forces who died in war and is generally well-accepted by members of the public.
However the poppies are controversial in some quarters
Some people, including Channel 4 newsreader Jon Snow, refuse to wear them due to opposition to "poppy fascism" – with people making television appearances around Remembrance Sunday often being criticised in some quarters if they do not wear one.
The argument goes that the soldiers who gave their lives for the country's freedom did so in order for people to have a choice in what they did and what they wore – including the poppy.
Further controversy comes from the fact the poppies commemorate soldiers who died in every war since the First World War – with some of the UK's conflicts since 1918 very controversial in some quarters.
Recent conflicts, especially Iraq and Afghanistan, are also a sensitive subject for some.
The Royal British Legion themselves argue that wearing a poppy is entirely an individual's choice and that 'If the poppy became compulsory it would lose its meaning and significance.
Great discussion this. I must confess that I started very much agreeing with Dev's take on the subject but I've been swayed by the well argued points from LX and Johnny King
Jon Snow, the news presenter, has been mentioned several times in the course of this debate. It's important to make clear that, in common with Charlene White, the ITV news presenter (and others, for all I know), Jon Snow wears the poppy in his private life. As I understand it, they both adopt this approach for reasons of objectivity- not wanting to be seen to favour a particular charity or political cause.
I think just about everybody on this thread has agreed that everyone should be free to wear a poppy if they wish to commemorate those who have lost their lives in wars. Nobody that I have seen is suggesting this should be criticised. Equally virtually everyone (including Jonny King's generally excellent post) is united in arguing that those who wish to commemorate in other ways apart from wearing the poppy (perhaps they consider the symbol itself has become politicised and tainted) should be respected as should those whose political views are such that they oppose what the poppy stands for in some cases.
There is disagreement on whether the poppy itself is a political symbol and on the relatively unimportant issue of whether it is worn during a football match contrary to the Governing Body's view of the rules of the competition. Odd thing for the English FA to wish to burn its political capital with FIFA over.
There is a wider argument about whether military service is now on too high a pedestal and whether notions that all military personnel are necessarily heroes are healthy. For example today is the five year anniversary of an awful crash and fire on the M5 at Taunton that killed a number of people including two Ginsters drivers doing their work.
I am not entirely sure their death is any more or any less sad or any more or any less heroic or any more or any less worthy of national commemoration than the death at round about the same time of a soldier in Afghanistan. Maybe that argument is for another day.
Comments
@LX1 my point was that's it's not really an issue. FIFA have interpreted their rules to conclude that it is not appropriate. That is a reasonable-ish conclusion. We should respect their decision as members of the 'club' rather than whinge about injustice or whatever it is that we are whinging about
The obvious irony in FIFA's stance is that all international players are required to display genuine political emblems on their left chests. Or across their middles in the days of the classic CCCP soviet kits
@bookertease I'm noy whingeing. Just trying to understand why a poppy is a political symbol whilst trying to keep the debate away from the hijacking from the Sun and the likes. Nobody has been able to explain this yet.
I agree it's been blown in silly directions by some parts of the media.
A rare decisive move from the FA http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/fifa-poppy-ban-england-scotland-fa-players-will-wear-remembrance-day-a7393591.html
Another reason for me not supporting England anymore
@NorthumberlandBlue why so you feel that way?
Caving in to poppy facism
Who is caving in to 'poppy fascism?'
Young able bodied good looking young people who aren't 'old codgers?'
@LX1 sorry I wasn't addressing the whinging comment at you.
Isn't it sad that Remembrance Day appears to have been hijacked by those who would use it to push their own political agenda?
On one hand you've got The Sun using it to spread it's poison and Britain First attempting to turn the poppy into a symbol of racism (like the NF did with the Union Flag) and on the other you've got those who, for whatever reason, are determined to make a big song and dance about not wearing one and screaming 'Poppy facism' (not a thing) at anyone who dares to attempt to debate the issue with them.
I remember The Sun banging on last year about Jeremy Corbyn 'not bowing enough' at the Cenotaph. A complete non-story, but was all over their front page nonetheless. Personally, I found I was far more offended by The Sun using Remembrance Day to push it's own politics on people than I was by Corbyn apparently not bending his neck as much as the person stood next to him.
I like to go against what Rupert Murdoch tells me to do as much as the next fully functioning human, but it seems a shame to hear people say they wouldn't wear a poppy because of how the Sun aggressively pushes the cause. The Poppy Appeal isn't run by the The Sun. It's a very worthy charity and deserves our support.
People are free to wear or not wear a poppy as they wish and it's awful that people can't be allowed to make that choice without being scrutinised of even criticised/abused for it. My concern is that if more and more people are put off wearing a poppy, either by fear of being seen to promote right wing ideologies or for fear of being accused of 'poppy facism' (still not a thing), then it quite likely will be well and truly taken over by the racists and the bigots.
As for the wearing of white poppies, my only concern with them is - where does the money go? Presumably they're not made by the RBL, but does the money get passed on to them? Part of the reason of buying a poppy is for the money to be given to help injured servicemen and women and their families.
Personal feeling that a poppy is a personal statement of memory and its only natural for some people to feel more connected to the symbol than others due to family legacy. It is not an issue of Jonny Foreigner telling us what we can do or can't do its a clear rule that given breadth could be easily abused by some pretty horrid people.
However I do also feel that some responsibility could be taken by the players. If they want to wear a poppy armband they should and take the consequences. We have seen players raise shirts with messages and even advertise sh1t happily taking the consequences £££.
Storm in a tea cup for me
@bookertease I didn't think you were having a go at me! Good debate
@Johnny_King excellent post. It is a shame that such a positive cause has been slightly marred by confusion
In the absence of any explanation I would suggest FIFA may be worried about the poppy deflecting attention from the McDonalds and Budweiser adverts. Or perhaps it is seen as a celebration of the Opium Wars in China?
Maybe the British Legion could give the worthy people at FIFA a modest payment in exchange for being 'Official Remembrance Provider of the FIFA World Cup'. They whore everything else out so why not?
Ideally the poppy should be an apolitical symbol of remembrance to those who lost their lives fighting for our freedom, though the way it has come to be co-opted by politicians to justify the more dubious wars our soldiers have been sent into in more recent times leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. Also the more recent trend of sporting teams incorporating the poppy on their strip seems to have coincided with this, which heightens my scepticism that the intention behind it is entirely apolitical.
I full respect those who see the poppy as what it was originally intended as, though I can also see FIFA's point of view that more benign symbols being displayed by teams will open the floodgates for less savoury ones being displayed by others.
There's some excellent posts in this thread (special mention @Jonny_King ). I'm almost tempted to go have a look at the single syllable, faux outrage that the WWFC Facebook page has probably cooked up on this issue.
I agree with you and agree with much of Jonny's post. The poppy should be a personal decision to have any meaning with no one being forced to wear or forced not to wear it by political pressure and bullying except in special circumstances (like while playing a football match in contravention of well established and sensible rules)
Jonny though denies "Poppy fascism" although I am not sure he has grasped the meaning of the term. It does not relate to the hijacking of the symbol by far right fascist groups unpleasant as that is. it does relate to the sadly increasing trend of intolerance towards those who choose not to reflected by the abuse handed out to James McClean, who has a differing view, to Jon Snow, who rebels against being forced to do anything, to Cameron who had to have a poppy airbrushed on to a photo to keep the thought police quiet, to Corbyn who rejects militaritism on conscientious grounds, even to those like the ITV presenter who doesn't want to prioritise this charity over others more dear to her and even Sienna Miller, whose poppy fell off prior to a TV appearance.
11 years ago we were grown up enough to play a friendly against a recent enemy on Nov 12th without having to wear the poppy. Those who wanted to wear the poppy did
because it meant something to them to do so, those who didn't didn't feel obliged too. What has gone wrong in the last 11 years? Why are we now obliged to make a collective show of support that we did not have to 11 years ago? Since when has Britain became so omnipotent that we can openly say we intend to flout the rules of an international body while playing in their tournament? Are we really so xenophobic that we cannot take orders from foreigners under any circumstances now? Are we so insecure that we cannot say oh well, it was just a nice gesture, doesn't stop us individually remembering the war dead if we so choose? Honestly I despair of the way this country is heading. This issue, while relatively minor, is symptomatic of a very unpleasant path we are heading down.
Brexit.
I think Britain has a pretty long history of thinking we are omnipotent, xenophobic and not taking orders for foreigners.
I went to a TV recording this week that will be shown after Rememberance Day and all the audience were told to remove poppies for the show.
I've not really got any rage or strong interest in our millionaire footballers wearing the poppy. It's a storm in a teacup. It would be interesting to canvas them to see how many even know what it means.
Not sure your TV experience is particularly enlightening, Righty. Go to the filming of a Christmas special in July and you'll be wearing heavy sweaters even if its 90 degrees outside.
I started this trend and perhaps the following comment from the Stoke Sentinel could perhaps be the final word
" Should you wear a poppy?
The first poppy appeal took place in 1921, a few short years after the end of the First World War.
The symbols commemorate members of the armed forces who died in war and is generally well-accepted by members of the public.
However the poppies are controversial in some quarters
Some people, including Channel 4 newsreader Jon Snow, refuse to wear them due to opposition to "poppy fascism" – with people making television appearances around Remembrance Sunday often being criticised in some quarters if they do not wear one.
The argument goes that the soldiers who gave their lives for the country's freedom did so in order for people to have a choice in what they did and what they wore – including the poppy.
Further controversy comes from the fact the poppies commemorate soldiers who died in every war since the First World War – with some of the UK's conflicts since 1918 very controversial in some quarters.
Recent conflicts, especially Iraq and Afghanistan, are also a sensitive subject for some.
The Royal British Legion themselves argue that wearing a poppy is entirely an individual's choice and that 'If the poppy became compulsory it would lose its meaning and significance.
Great discussion this. I must confess that I started very much agreeing with Dev's take on the subject but I've been swayed by the well argued points from LX and Johnny King
Thanks all, very helpful and interesting reading
Jon Snow, the news presenter, has been mentioned several times in the course of this debate. It's important to make clear that, in common with Charlene White, the ITV news presenter (and others, for all I know), Jon Snow wears the poppy in his private life. As I understand it, they both adopt this approach for reasons of objectivity- not wanting to be seen to favour a particular charity or political cause.
I think just about everybody on this thread has agreed that everyone should be free to wear a poppy if they wish to commemorate those who have lost their lives in wars. Nobody that I have seen is suggesting this should be criticised. Equally virtually everyone (including Jonny King's generally excellent post) is united in arguing that those who wish to commemorate in other ways apart from wearing the poppy (perhaps they consider the symbol itself has become politicised and tainted) should be respected as should those whose political views are such that they oppose what the poppy stands for in some cases.
There is disagreement on whether the poppy itself is a political symbol and on the relatively unimportant issue of whether it is worn during a football match contrary to the Governing Body's view of the rules of the competition. Odd thing for the English FA to wish to burn its political capital with FIFA over.
There is a wider argument about whether military service is now on too high a pedestal and whether notions that all military personnel are necessarily heroes are healthy. For example today is the five year anniversary of an awful crash and fire on the M5 at Taunton that killed a number of people including two Ginsters drivers doing their work.
I am not entirely sure their death is any more or any less sad or any more or any less heroic or any more or any less worthy of national commemoration than the death at round about the same time of a soldier in Afghanistan. Maybe that argument is for another day.
Let's hope so @DevC .