Travel on public transport used by school kids and you'll soon discover we've a long way to go regards stamping out homophobia.
And yes, before anyone starts, I realise it's not just that age group with the problem, but if I was to compare 70s youth and today's on racism and homophobia, the former is hugely improved but the latter just as bad as ever.
@Right_in_the_Middle not one person on this thread has said anything other than how positive it would be for a gay player to come out. The stats show overwhelming support among fans in general. What on earth have you read in this discussion that makes you think it's "extremely unlikely" a player will come out?
@eric_plant said:
I suppose he next that if you talk about "accepting" it implies that there is something that needs to be accepted, and that being gay ought to be as unremarkable as being heterosexual, and no-one talks in terms of straight people needing "acceptance"
I completely agree. We have reached the point where the acceptance of differing sexualities (for the majority of the time) doesn't even need to be thought about, let alone discussed - which wasn't the case 50 years ago.
@arnos_grove School kids have and will always talk a load of shite.
The attitude of young people towards homosexuality is completely different now than in the 80s, at least in the places that I have experience of. I'm pretty sure there will be a body of evidence supporting this rather than just anecdotes but someone else can do the work!
@micra I assume you are joking but in case you are not one of my other favourite players in that gold medal team was Helen Richardson-Walsh.
@aloysius Everything is really positive but surely it actually has to be much nearer neutral for it to really happen? It shouldn't be celebrated. It should be that we almost don't care.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
Everything is really positive but surely it actually has to be much nearer neutral for it to really happen? It shouldn't be celebrated. It should be that we almost don't care.
Can't see that @Chris . Celebrating the integration of many different people is good but pointing out those differences is the most counter productive thing you can do. Gender quotas in board rooms, race quotas in the South African cricket team and listing foreign workers aren't helping that integration
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
micra I assume you are joking but in case you are not one of my other favourite players in that gold medal team was Helen Richardson-Walsh.
Not joking, I'm afraid. Had never heard of either because, rightly or wrongly, I didn't follow the Brazil Olympics. Good luck to both of them.
Interesting two Olympians spring to mind now you have mentioned Kate Richardson-Walsh. I was not aware she was married to one of the other players until she mentioned it in a context that was not about sexuality etc it was just a matter of fact normal thing she said. How cool I thought. Then there is fantastically hilarious Lee Pearson who wears his sexuality on his sleeve whilst undeniably being at the top of his game.
Same (non) issue in sport dealt with in different ways by the individual. Neither are judged or spoken about in anything but positive terms. I'm starting to think that football is the problem more than society or wider sport.
@Chris said:
arnos_grove School kids have and will always talk a load of shite.
The attitude of young people towards homosexuality is completely different now than in the 80s
Can't agree I'm afraid. It's very rare to hear racist stuff like in that environment like you would have done when I was younger. However, I still hear loads of stuff about fags, bandits etc. I'm sure they'll grow out of it doesn't seem like the kind of atmosphere any gay teenager would want to come out into.
@Right_in_the_Middle I'm all for quotas if they open up opportunities for people who may otherwise be denied those opportunities (through unconscious bias and cultural privilege as well as intentional discrimination) because of their gender or race.
I don't think integration is the right word here. Women, people from the majority ethnic group - they do not need to be integrated into the male, white society. The male, white society needs to change to be more fair, and quotas are one (effective) way of doing this.
In any case, I don't think this has much to do with celebration of differences that I was talking about in the first place. I was thinking more along the lines of Pride marches which are very much a positive thing.
Quotas are an awful idea and the 'minorities' chosen under them are at best under lots of pressure and at worst just tokens. You need to create a society and structure where if you are good enough it doesn't matter what part of society you've come from.
Apart from that I've not much of an idea what you are trying to argue. It's doesn't make any sense compared to what I've posted. I think we must be on different tracks altogether.
Quotas help give opportunities to those who wouldn't have them otherwise - and who would if society was fair to begin with. They are part of create a society and structure where if you are good enough it doesn't matter what part of society you've come from - which of course is a great end goal to have, but doesn't magically happen. Education and redistribution of wealth are parts of the solution, and so are quotas and positive discrimination.
Aside from that, I started out by saying that celebration of differences, e.g. Pride marches, can be a good thing. I think you were saying they weren't.
The treatment by South African cricket in the early career of Makhaya Ntini would have broken many a man. He was strong enough to get his chance but was carried along as a token for many test match. Quotas only add to differences.
Pride marches are fantastic things but don't you think they are all the better more recently when they have become much more inclusive for all. The are celebrations of life rather than a celebration of difference.
For white middle class heterosexual males who grew up in a white middle class heterosexual world I don't think there was ever a need for many of us on this board (I know - I'm generalising. But probably not that far removed) to need to celebrate who we are/were. For people outside that relatively narrow perspective - I can understand the need to have means to celebrate who you are. The joy is that we are - on the whole - free to celebrate with them.
As a parent with school aged children I can also say (based on their reports) openly gay children are on the whole more easily accepted at school than, in some instances, their family. So I do think things have changed for the better in that respect.
@bookertease exactly. It's hard for white, straight men to get their heads around why women/gays/people of colour want to make such a fuss. On the whole life has (also generalising) not been too bad for us. I remember my wife and I trying to explain why Obama becoming President was such a big thing to my daughter and she just shrugged...a black man president - so what? Which is a good thing. But anyone who thinks things are 'okay' now just has to take a moment to listen to what drops out of the mouths of Ukippers, Trumpanzees and some of the more extremist Brexiteers (not to mention some football fans) to realise that we've still got a long way to go and positive discrimination has a part to play in that...
I'm not sure what Right in a Muddle is getting at in his posts, they might make sense in a world where there is no advantage to be gained from coming from a certain background or having certain characteristics or innate preferences, but that isn't the world that we live in.
I wish that our society would consider things such as sexuality as banal a topic as whether someone is right or left handed, or preferred the colour blue to red, though it's clear that football in particular has a problem. The sooner someone cuts through the bullshit and breaks the ground for others to follow, the better for all concerned.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
The treatment by South African cricket in the early career of Makhaya Ntini would have broken many a man. He was strong enough to get his chance but was carried along as a token for many test match. Quotas only add to differences.
So your example opposing the quota system is a player who may not have been selected except for the quota system and who turned out to be a great player. Interesting.
Ntini himself said that Thami Tsolekile would have been selected to play for South Africa more often if he had been white.
@aloysius Sorry, mised your comment. In short, no I haven't missed either the last few seasons nor Vitals opposition fans views. I do feel that the reputation of our club, is very good, the reputation of our team is another viewpoint altogether. In the context of the post, I feel that I am correct in that the clubs' reputation is not in need of repair.
In my experience of watching Wycombe we are a fair and tolerant group all in all. I can think of many parts of our society where that 8% would be closer to 80%. Thinking most mainstream religions.
The poll taking of football fans as a 'group' seems to be more in line with an assumed idea, still, that football is more right leaning that other sports/social groups.
Sorry for dropping that earlier comment in and then going on holiday @chris. What I was obliquely referencing was the outrage several republican politicians garnered in the wake of the Trump tapes by stating that women should be "cherished", "celebrated" and any other number of patronising words that suggest they're something other than human. To my ears, and apparently @micra's, even the word "accepted" falls into this camp, as it implies that one has first taken notice of someone's "otherness" and then made a decision to accept that. As long as we humans look first for the difference in others we will have sexism, racism, homophobia and every other nastiness.
Funnily enough, "acceptance" was the theme of my 8 year old daughter's homework last week. She came to the same conclusion, having failed to think of anything about anyone in her group of friends that was different.
While I agree with some of that, I think it's right that we recognise that people are different. That doesn't mean anyone is better than anyone else, but we aren't all the same.
I think we're saying almost the same thing. But I don't see sexuality as a difference to be accepted any more than having blonde hair, being a woman, or liking Coldplay. We're all infinitely different, that one difference should be picked out over all the others to warrant "acceptance" is still highlighting that difference, and therefore still treating them as "other".
Comments
Ah, but is she gay "Righty"?
Travel on public transport used by school kids and you'll soon discover we've a long way to go regards stamping out homophobia.
And yes, before anyone starts, I realise it's not just that age group with the problem, but if I was to compare 70s youth and today's on racism and homophobia, the former is hugely improved but the latter just as bad as ever.
@Right_in_the_Middle not one person on this thread has said anything other than how positive it would be for a gay player to come out. The stats show overwhelming support among fans in general. What on earth have you read in this discussion that makes you think it's "extremely unlikely" a player will come out?
I completely agree. We have reached the point where the acceptance of differing sexualities (for the majority of the time) doesn't even need to be thought about, let alone discussed - which wasn't the case 50 years ago.
@arnos_grove School kids have and will always talk a load of shite.
The attitude of young people towards homosexuality is completely different now than in the 80s, at least in the places that I have experience of. I'm pretty sure there will be a body of evidence supporting this rather than just anecdotes but someone else can do the work!
@micra I assume you are joking but in case you are not one of my other favourite players in that gold medal team was Helen Richardson-Walsh.
@aloysius Everything is really positive but surely it actually has to be much nearer neutral for it to really happen? It shouldn't be celebrated. It should be that we almost don't care.
The kids that shout the loudest on public transport probably aren't representative of the majority.
Nah. Celebrating difference is a positive thing.
Wasn't Justin Fashinou the 1st footballer to be recognised as gay? Or was it that his suicide was because he was being "outed"?
Can't see that @Chris . Celebrating the integration of many different people is good but pointing out those differences is the most counter productive thing you can do. Gender quotas in board rooms, race quotas in the South African cricket team and listing foreign workers aren't helping that integration
Not joking, I'm afraid. Had never heard of either because, rightly or wrongly, I didn't follow the Brazil Olympics. Good luck to both of them.
Interesting two Olympians spring to mind now you have mentioned Kate Richardson-Walsh. I was not aware she was married to one of the other players until she mentioned it in a context that was not about sexuality etc it was just a matter of fact normal thing she said. How cool I thought. Then there is fantastically hilarious Lee Pearson who wears his sexuality on his sleeve whilst undeniably being at the top of his game.
Same (non) issue in sport dealt with in different ways by the individual. Neither are judged or spoken about in anything but positive terms. I'm starting to think that football is the problem more than society or wider sport.
Can't agree I'm afraid. It's very rare to hear racist stuff like in that environment like you would have done when I was younger. However, I still hear loads of stuff about fags, bandits etc. I'm sure they'll grow out of it doesn't seem like the kind of atmosphere any gay teenager would want to come out into.
You must travel on classier buses than me!
@Right_in_the_Middle I'm all for quotas if they open up opportunities for people who may otherwise be denied those opportunities (through unconscious bias and cultural privilege as well as intentional discrimination) because of their gender or race.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/29/south-africa-racial-quotas-sport-rugby-springboks-cricket
I don't think integration is the right word here. Women, people from the majority ethnic group - they do not need to be integrated into the male, white society. The male, white society needs to change to be more fair, and quotas are one (effective) way of doing this.
In any case, I don't think this has much to do with celebration of differences that I was talking about in the first place. I was thinking more along the lines of Pride marches which are very much a positive thing.
Quotas are an awful idea and the 'minorities' chosen under them are at best under lots of pressure and at worst just tokens. You need to create a society and structure where if you are good enough it doesn't matter what part of society you've come from.
Apart from that I've not much of an idea what you are trying to argue. It's doesn't make any sense compared to what I've posted. I think we must be on different tracks altogether.
Quotas help give opportunities to those who wouldn't have them otherwise - and who would if society was fair to begin with. They are part of create a society and structure where if you are good enough it doesn't matter what part of society you've come from - which of course is a great end goal to have, but doesn't magically happen. Education and redistribution of wealth are parts of the solution, and so are quotas and positive discrimination.
Aside from that, I started out by saying that celebration of differences, e.g. Pride marches, can be a good thing. I think you were saying they weren't.
The treatment by South African cricket in the early career of Makhaya Ntini would have broken many a man. He was strong enough to get his chance but was carried along as a token for many test match. Quotas only add to differences.
Pride marches are fantastic things but don't you think they are all the better more recently when they have become much more inclusive for all. The are celebrations of life rather than a celebration of difference.
For white middle class heterosexual males who grew up in a white middle class heterosexual world I don't think there was ever a need for many of us on this board (I know - I'm generalising. But probably not that far removed) to need to celebrate who we are/were. For people outside that relatively narrow perspective - I can understand the need to have means to celebrate who you are. The joy is that we are - on the whole - free to celebrate with them.
As a parent with school aged children I can also say (based on their reports) openly gay children are on the whole more easily accepted at school than, in some instances, their family. So I do think things have changed for the better in that respect.
@bookertease exactly. It's hard for white, straight men to get their heads around why women/gays/people of colour want to make such a fuss. On the whole life has (also generalising) not been too bad for us. I remember my wife and I trying to explain why Obama becoming President was such a big thing to my daughter and she just shrugged...a black man president - so what? Which is a good thing. But anyone who thinks things are 'okay' now just has to take a moment to listen to what drops out of the mouths of Ukippers, Trumpanzees and some of the more extremist Brexiteers (not to mention some football fans) to realise that we've still got a long way to go and positive discrimination has a part to play in that...
Surely positive discrimination still means that someone would be discriminated against. How can that be fair, or good?
I'm not sure what Right in a Muddle is getting at in his posts, they might make sense in a world where there is no advantage to be gained from coming from a certain background or having certain characteristics or innate preferences, but that isn't the world that we live in.
I wish that our society would consider things such as sexuality as banal a topic as whether someone is right or left handed, or preferred the colour blue to red, though it's clear that football in particular has a problem. The sooner someone cuts through the bullshit and breaks the ground for others to follow, the better for all concerned.
So your example opposing the quota system is a player who may not have been selected except for the quota system and who turned out to be a great player. Interesting.
Ntini himself said that Thami Tsolekile would have been selected to play for South Africa more often if he had been white.
@aloysius Sorry, mised your comment. In short, no I haven't missed either the last few seasons nor Vitals opposition fans views. I do feel that the reputation of our club, is very good, the reputation of our team is another viewpoint altogether. In the context of the post, I feel that I am correct in that the clubs' reputation is not in need of repair.
In my experience of watching Wycombe we are a fair and tolerant group all in all. I can think of many parts of our society where that 8% would be closer to 80%. Thinking most mainstream religions.
The poll taking of football fans as a 'group' seems to be more in line with an assumed idea, still, that football is more right leaning that other sports/social groups.
Can anyone with access to the article perhaps copy and paste it on here please?
Sorry for dropping that earlier comment in and then going on holiday @chris. What I was obliquely referencing was the outrage several republican politicians garnered in the wake of the Trump tapes by stating that women should be "cherished", "celebrated" and any other number of patronising words that suggest they're something other than human. To my ears, and apparently @micra's, even the word "accepted" falls into this camp, as it implies that one has first taken notice of someone's "otherness" and then made a decision to accept that. As long as we humans look first for the difference in others we will have sexism, racism, homophobia and every other nastiness.
Funnily enough, "acceptance" was the theme of my 8 year old daughter's homework last week. She came to the same conclusion, having failed to think of anything about anyone in her group of friends that was different.
While I agree with some of that, I think it's right that we recognise that people are different. That doesn't mean anyone is better than anyone else, but we aren't all the same.
I think we're saying almost the same thing. But I don't see sexuality as a difference to be accepted any more than having blonde hair, being a woman, or liking Coldplay. We're all infinitely different, that one difference should be picked out over all the others to warrant "acceptance" is still highlighting that difference, and therefore still treating them as "other".
FWIW @drcongo I think you're spot on. It's unfortunately a long way from reality though
Actually, can I take back what I said about liking Coldplay?