It's an interesting interview and explains why the club were tweeting about Henry Winter being at the training ground yesterday. JJ particularly interesting on the boisterousness in the Wycombe changing room, which sounds like it treads a fine line between banter and offensiveness. Also very intriguing comments about how welcoming the players would be if one of them came out as gay. I'd love Wycombe to be the pioneers here, not least because I'm sure players, staff and fans alike would all be very supportive and restore our image as a nice club in one fell swoop.
Obviously it is entirely for individuals concerned who happened to be gay and happened to be professional footballers whether they wish to go public and receive what would be considerable attention or not.
I have no doubt players and officials of the club would be supportive both if a WWFC player chose to be the first to go public or for that matter if it was an opposition player. Fans>? All I think would support a home player. I like to think the majority would similarly support an opposition player, all fans - not sure.
Obviously it is not Wycombe's choice to be the pioneer here, even assuming that one of our players happen to be gay. That choice can only be for the individual or individuals concerned.
I have just read the JJ article. I have met him (and his dad & brother) a couple of times. Always well spoken and respectful. My interpretation is that some of the "banter" at WW is if not wrong at least not thought through and insensitive. Hopefully the squad will read it and reflect.
Just caught up with the interview and didn't really read anything that worried me about the Wycombe dressing room or the club at large. I had expected to after some of the comments above. Joe comes across well and thankfully there is no mention of the clubs media hungry centre forward.
@EwanHoosaami Have you missed the last few seasons, or at very least, @Vital's sterling summaries of the opposition view after each match?!
@DevC for the avoidance of any doubt I wasn't suggesting in the slightest that the club force a player to come out. That would be crazy. However I would hope that this club - and in fact every football club - would let it be known among the dressing room that, should any player be in a position where they would want to come out, the club has the structures in place to support them fully; in terms of an understanding and supportive atmosphere internally and bespoke support for handling the additional attention externally. I am assuming the Football Association has also put together a package of additional support for any player who comes out, including access to counselling if required, comms support to help protect privacy etc etc.
It's worth reading the interview if you can get hold of a copy of The Times or sneak a peak in a newsagent. If it were a politician being interviewed the words would read very strongly like a coded message to a particular colleague, almost as if JJ was aware of a player thinking of coming out and sending a public message of support. Clearly he's not a politician and he's probably actually talking in generalities. But in an interview on anti-Semitism it struck me as a very interesting diversion.
Fair enough, Aloysius, apologies for misunderstanding.
For those who haven't, you can read it online, you have to register but doesn't have to be a real email address (you can be [email protected]) and it only takes 30secs. No cost.
Overall to be honest I read the anti-semitism part of the article much the same as RITM - not adding a huge amount to what we already know. The gas noises that some supporters utter are as moronic as songs about Munich, Hillsborough, death of children on the M6 etc IMHO. What is wrong with people that they think this is witty or in anyway OK.
I did get the same thought as Aloysius as wondering if he was sending a signal to a mate - current or in the past. Hopefully it will happen sooner or later and that a players sexuality will be of no more passing interest than his nationality or religion or colour of hair. I am sure there would be plenty of support but undoubtedly the first one would get a huge amount of attention which inevitably would be a distraction. Not sure I would have the courage to be the first if I was in that situation.
Mrs Micra, Gawd bless 'er, just came in with a copy of the Times. Always enjoyed Henry Winter's stuff so looking forward to reading the article. May comment later. Have avoided reading what people have posted so far for fear of being prejudiced!
I think football is no where near ready for a gay player to come out with impunity. There is far too much emotional prejudice on and off the pitch.
We spent much most of the summer and early autumn cheering and celebrating women Olympian and Paralympic athletes yet when we had a female assistant on Saturday the misogynist sh1t I could hear being shouted in her direction was pretty embarrassing. Whilst I am sure 99% of people asked would say they would never abuse an 'out' player the first time he was involved in a contentious moment the truth selfs would be out.
Interesting thought. Not sure you are right though for the majority.
An opposition player commits a bad foul and we regard it as acceptable to scream you f&king dirty c%"t at him. If he is a little portly, we may ignore our own bulging beer bellies and scream you f&king fat dirty c%"t at him. That is acceptable too, it seems. If he happens to be black, few would these days scream "you f*&king black dirty c%"t" at him and rightly so. Would "gay" be like "fat" or like "black". I like to think for the vast majority it would be the latter, unacceptable even to those prepared to make gas noises to Jews or shout murderer to McCormick.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub - that's exactly why the game needs a player to come out sooner rather than later. It will almost certainly be difficult at first - there will be chanting or innuendo and undoubtedly invasions of privacy by some of the more scurrilous gossip websites. But it's only by confronting this head-on that people will actually start thinking about their prejudices and how their 'banter' can be construed as homophobia.
It's exactly the same national debate we had when bananas were being thrown at John Barnes, or indeed when the first female assistant referees popped up. In fact, it's exactly the same national debate we had with the ordination of female vicars and then, a couple of decades later, legislating for gay marriage. Lots of complaints from the usual suspects in advance then, when it's happened, an understanding that society hasn't collapsed and an incrementally progressive shift in people's attitudes and perceptions.
No one can or should pretend the first footballer coming out will have it easy. It's precisely why it needs a strong character with a good support network to do it, to challenge perceptions and change footballing culture for the better. If we wait for football to have caught up to societal norms, to create the perfect climate for coming out, it will never happen. It's only by confronting prejudice head-on that prejudice can be overcome.
Look at Graeme LeSaux, a decent family man and a player that was persecuted for being educated and therefore 'gay'. I still find it astounding to type it. This groundless abuse not only was on the terrace but on the pitch as well (Mr R Fowler of Toxteth). So if you were a footballer who was actually gay (as opposed to someone who dared read a book) could you really be bothered to put yourself in that position in your working life? Racism was not reduced (certainly not overcome) by football but by society. Prejudice against sexual orientation is still thriving, largely ignored and certainly not stigmatised.
I would love to see a player in our colours who was not afraid of his sexual orientation and I would cheer them as much as any other player but I think in some ways it is actually harder to overcome than race hatred. When you factor in religious bigotry against gay people the dressing room could become a very poisonous place. And sadly if the better player is the one making the 'jokes' he will be kept the other guy shipped off.
Not sure anyone would argue that it would not be good for society or football as a whole for a gay footballer to be able to be open about his sexuality.
Personally I am more optimistic about chants from the terraces than either of the two above posters. No one is obliged to join in a chant from a moron next to you , I would hope that just as racial abuse is virtually eliminated now, I'm not sure that homophobic abuse would be any more socially acceptable.
Having said that, the hullabaloo that would surround the first player to be openly gay would undoubtedly be significant and frankly that alone would risk having a detrimental effect on performance and possibly be a distraction to the rest of the team. Every bad game would be blamed on the announcement and not simply that he happened to have a bad game. I wouldn't be brave enough to be the first. If honest if I was GA and a player asked my advice, I would offer to support him in every way possible if he chose to do it but I think I would advise him for footballing reasons to leave it to the next guy. I wonder how often that conversation has been had at clubs across the country.
Interesting article on the subject of homophobia http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/37760114
8% would stop supporting their team if they signed a gay player
15% think having a gay player would make their teammates feel uncomfortable
Jeez.
The majority of fans will be supportive of any gay footballer that it is that minority which is the issue. 8% is alot of fans but I couldn't see a sample size.
I'd be amazed if at least one gay player hasn't come out to at least some of his teammates. I don't see that as the issue here but the recent example of the first openly gay NFL player is a sobering story that might make me wrong on that too.
Personally I think homophobia is growing from Carry on 'ooo err missus' childlike behaviour into something more sinister. We recently saw the extraordinary thoughts of Andre Grey. Bigotry is also more prevalent in the name of mis-guided religion. I think that Wycombe has a decent cultural mix in the dressing room and see that at least two of our players value their belief very highly on Twitter. How this would reconcile with a player who's sexuality was at odds with their religion is yet another factor for a player coming out or a manager signing a publicly out player.
Fascinating survey, though actually I'm pretty encouraged that 82% would have no issue whatsoever with a player at the club they supported coming out. This stat also tickled me:
More sports fans (12%) would feel uncomfortable with a rival player joining their club than a gay player (8%)
There does seem to be a real head of steam building up on a player coming out, almost as if someone has indicated they're ready to do so and the ground is now being softened up for him. If rugby league and union, basketball, American football and cricket players can do it without the world collapsing, it's about time a footballer grasped the bull by the horns, so to speak...
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub homophobia isn't growing, quite the opposite, it's a far more tolerant society than it was even, say, ten years ago.
Homophobia of the 'Carry On' era wasn't just oo er missus - 14 Carry On films had been released before the point when homosexual acts stopped being illegal (in 1967). And I think we're finally starting to reach a point where people who are gay are not just tolerated but accepted and celebrated.
I'm not sure what it was meant to mean either, maybe that it would be better if it was something entirely unremarkable. Unfortunately the reality is that there is still a significant amount of ingrained prejudice against anyone outside of what is conisdered by many to be 'normal'. Anyone taking a stand should be applauded, or even 'accepted and celebrating'.
I suppose he next that if you talk about "accepting" it implies that there is something that needs to be accepted, and that being gay ought to be as unremarkable as being heterosexual, and no-one talks in terms of straight people needing "acceptance"
"And I think we're finally starting to reach a point where people who are gay are not just tolerated but accepted and celebrated."
Tolerated implies that the majority regard homosexuality as inferior but are prepared to put up with it.
Accepted implies that gay and straight are regarded as equals
Celebrated implies that gay people somehow should be regarded as special and worthy of special appreciation.
The first gay player will hopefully be accepted and celebrated.
The aim must be that gay players are eventually simply accepted just the same as black, ginger, foreign left footed players are and therefore don't need to be "celebrated".
I am pretty sure that was what Chris was aiming for too. Sometimes you have to understand the underlying meaning rather than finding ways to take offence.
I'm wondering what form the celebration should take. I do get very annoyed with people of my generation (and, less frequently, younger folk) who refuse to accept that being "gay" is not a life choice.
I suppose I fall into the "acceptance" category but even that has a pejorative ring. I use the term only in the sense that I treat everyone I meet "as I find them". If I find I cannot "accept" someone (whether gay, bisexual, transsexual or heterosexual) it will be on grounds of personality, attitude or character and I like to think that this will become the "norm" over the next decade or two, wishful thinking as that may be.
PS. I've added the above because my late night 'hear hear' to @drcongo seemed, in the light of subsequent posts, torequire a bit of elaboration!
I think this discussion shows exactly why it is extremely unlikely a gay footballer will ever come out whilst still playing. It's a sad state of affairs but most things that are acceptable norms don't carry this weight of debate.
One of my favourite sports people is Kate Richardson-Walsh, the Team GB hockey captain. A fantastic player and an exceptional leader of her team and ambassador of her sport. If you get a chance listen to her talking about her sport.
Comments
It's an interesting interview and explains why the club were tweeting about Henry Winter being at the training ground yesterday. JJ particularly interesting on the boisterousness in the Wycombe changing room, which sounds like it treads a fine line between banter and offensiveness. Also very intriguing comments about how welcoming the players would be if one of them came out as gay. I'd love Wycombe to be the pioneers here, not least because I'm sure players, staff and fans alike would all be very supportive and restore our image as a nice club in one fell swoop.
Obviously it is entirely for individuals concerned who happened to be gay and happened to be professional footballers whether they wish to go public and receive what would be considerable attention or not.
I have no doubt players and officials of the club would be supportive both if a WWFC player chose to be the first to go public or for that matter if it was an opposition player. Fans>? All I think would support a home player. I like to think the majority would similarly support an opposition player, all fans - not sure.
Obviously it is not Wycombe's choice to be the pioneer here, even assuming that one of our players happen to be gay. That choice can only be for the individual or individuals concerned.
Don;t worry @DevC I don't think anyone was planning on forcing them out so we can support them.
I thought that was exactly what Aloysius was suggesting, or at least encouraging. Perhaps on reflection I misunderstood him.
I have just read the JJ article. I have met him (and his dad & brother) a couple of times. Always well spoken and respectful. My interpretation is that some of the "banter" at WW is if not wrong at least not thought through and insensitive. Hopefully the squad will read it and reflect.
Anyone got a link to the article that bypasses Murdoch's paywall?
@aloysius I was unaware that the image of our club needed restoring. Have I missed something!?
Just caught up with the interview and didn't really read anything that worried me about the Wycombe dressing room or the club at large. I had expected to after some of the comments above. Joe comes across well and thankfully there is no mention of the clubs media hungry centre forward.
@EwanHoosaami Have you missed the last few seasons, or at very least, @Vital's sterling summaries of the opposition view after each match?!
@DevC for the avoidance of any doubt I wasn't suggesting in the slightest that the club force a player to come out. That would be crazy. However I would hope that this club - and in fact every football club - would let it be known among the dressing room that, should any player be in a position where they would want to come out, the club has the structures in place to support them fully; in terms of an understanding and supportive atmosphere internally and bespoke support for handling the additional attention externally. I am assuming the Football Association has also put together a package of additional support for any player who comes out, including access to counselling if required, comms support to help protect privacy etc etc.
It's worth reading the interview if you can get hold of a copy of The Times or sneak a peak in a newsagent. If it were a politician being interviewed the words would read very strongly like a coded message to a particular colleague, almost as if JJ was aware of a player thinking of coming out and sending a public message of support. Clearly he's not a politician and he's probably actually talking in generalities. But in an interview on anti-Semitism it struck me as a very interesting diversion.
Fair enough, Aloysius, apologies for misunderstanding.
For those who haven't, you can read it online, you have to register but doesn't have to be a real email address (you can be [email protected]) and it only takes 30secs. No cost.
Overall to be honest I read the anti-semitism part of the article much the same as RITM - not adding a huge amount to what we already know. The gas noises that some supporters utter are as moronic as songs about Munich, Hillsborough, death of children on the M6 etc IMHO. What is wrong with people that they think this is witty or in anyway OK.
I did get the same thought as Aloysius as wondering if he was sending a signal to a mate - current or in the past. Hopefully it will happen sooner or later and that a players sexuality will be of no more passing interest than his nationality or religion or colour of hair. I am sure there would be plenty of support but undoubtedly the first one would get a huge amount of attention which inevitably would be a distraction. Not sure I would have the courage to be the first if I was in that situation.
Mrs Micra, Gawd bless 'er, just came in with a copy of the Times. Always enjoyed Henry Winter's stuff so looking forward to reading the article. May comment later. Have avoided reading what people have posted so far for fear of being prejudiced!
I think football is no where near ready for a gay player to come out with impunity. There is far too much emotional prejudice on and off the pitch.
We spent much most of the summer and early autumn cheering and celebrating women Olympian and Paralympic athletes yet when we had a female assistant on Saturday the misogynist sh1t I could hear being shouted in her direction was pretty embarrassing. Whilst I am sure 99% of people asked would say they would never abuse an 'out' player the first time he was involved in a contentious moment the truth selfs would be out.
Interesting thought. Not sure you are right though for the majority.
An opposition player commits a bad foul and we regard it as acceptable to scream you f&king dirty c%"t at him. If he is a little portly, we may ignore our own bulging beer bellies and scream you f&king fat dirty c%"t at him. That is acceptable too, it seems. If he happens to be black, few would these days scream "you f*&king black dirty c%"t" at him and rightly so. Would "gay" be like "fat" or like "black". I like to think for the vast majority it would be the latter, unacceptable even to those prepared to make gas noises to Jews or shout murderer to McCormick.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub - that's exactly why the game needs a player to come out sooner rather than later. It will almost certainly be difficult at first - there will be chanting or innuendo and undoubtedly invasions of privacy by some of the more scurrilous gossip websites. But it's only by confronting this head-on that people will actually start thinking about their prejudices and how their 'banter' can be construed as homophobia.
It's exactly the same national debate we had when bananas were being thrown at John Barnes, or indeed when the first female assistant referees popped up. In fact, it's exactly the same national debate we had with the ordination of female vicars and then, a couple of decades later, legislating for gay marriage. Lots of complaints from the usual suspects in advance then, when it's happened, an understanding that society hasn't collapsed and an incrementally progressive shift in people's attitudes and perceptions.
No one can or should pretend the first footballer coming out will have it easy. It's precisely why it needs a strong character with a good support network to do it, to challenge perceptions and change footballing culture for the better. If we wait for football to have caught up to societal norms, to create the perfect climate for coming out, it will never happen. It's only by confronting prejudice head-on that prejudice can be overcome.
Look at Graeme LeSaux, a decent family man and a player that was persecuted for being educated and therefore 'gay'. I still find it astounding to type it. This groundless abuse not only was on the terrace but on the pitch as well (Mr R Fowler of Toxteth). So if you were a footballer who was actually gay (as opposed to someone who dared read a book) could you really be bothered to put yourself in that position in your working life? Racism was not reduced (certainly not overcome) by football but by society. Prejudice against sexual orientation is still thriving, largely ignored and certainly not stigmatised.
I would love to see a player in our colours who was not afraid of his sexual orientation and I would cheer them as much as any other player but I think in some ways it is actually harder to overcome than race hatred. When you factor in religious bigotry against gay people the dressing room could become a very poisonous place. And sadly if the better player is the one making the 'jokes' he will be kept the other guy shipped off.
Not sure anyone would argue that it would not be good for society or football as a whole for a gay footballer to be able to be open about his sexuality.
Personally I am more optimistic about chants from the terraces than either of the two above posters. No one is obliged to join in a chant from a moron next to you , I would hope that just as racial abuse is virtually eliminated now, I'm not sure that homophobic abuse would be any more socially acceptable.
Having said that, the hullabaloo that would surround the first player to be openly gay would undoubtedly be significant and frankly that alone would risk having a detrimental effect on performance and possibly be a distraction to the rest of the team. Every bad game would be blamed on the announcement and not simply that he happened to have a bad game. I wouldn't be brave enough to be the first. If honest if I was GA and a player asked my advice, I would offer to support him in every way possible if he chose to do it but I think I would advise him for footballing reasons to leave it to the next guy. I wonder how often that conversation has been had at clubs across the country.
Interesting article on the subject of homophobia
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/37760114
8% would stop supporting their team if they signed a gay player
15% think having a gay player would make their teammates feel uncomfortable
Jeez.
The majority of fans will be supportive of any gay footballer that it is that minority which is the issue. 8% is alot of fans but I couldn't see a sample size.
I'd be amazed if at least one gay player hasn't come out to at least some of his teammates. I don't see that as the issue here but the recent example of the first openly gay NFL player is a sobering story that might make me wrong on that too.
Personally I think homophobia is growing from Carry on 'ooo err missus' childlike behaviour into something more sinister. We recently saw the extraordinary thoughts of Andre Grey. Bigotry is also more prevalent in the name of mis-guided religion. I think that Wycombe has a decent cultural mix in the dressing room and see that at least two of our players value their belief very highly on Twitter. How this would reconcile with a player who's sexuality was at odds with their religion is yet another factor for a player coming out or a manager signing a publicly out player.
Fascinating survey, though actually I'm pretty encouraged that 82% would have no issue whatsoever with a player at the club they supported coming out. This stat also tickled me:
More sports fans (12%) would feel uncomfortable with a rival player joining their club than a gay player (8%)
There does seem to be a real head of steam building up on a player coming out, almost as if someone has indicated they're ready to do so and the ground is now being softened up for him. If rugby league and union, basketball, American football and cricket players can do it without the world collapsing, it's about time a footballer grasped the bull by the horns, so to speak...
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub homophobia isn't growing, quite the opposite, it's a far more tolerant society than it was even, say, ten years ago.
Homophobia of the 'Carry On' era wasn't just oo er missus - 14 Carry On films had been released before the point when homosexual acts stopped being illegal (in 1967). And I think we're finally starting to reach a point where people who are gay are not just tolerated but accepted and celebrated.
I reckon it'd be worth every club signing an openly gay player just to drive that 8% away from the game.
Accepting and celebrating is just as bad Chris. They're just people, like you and me.
Hear hear.
I really don't understand your point.
What is just as bad as what?
Acceptance is the same thing as 'people, just like you and me' isn't it?
I'm not sure what it was meant to mean either, maybe that it would be better if it was something entirely unremarkable. Unfortunately the reality is that there is still a significant amount of ingrained prejudice against anyone outside of what is conisdered by many to be 'normal'. Anyone taking a stand should be applauded, or even 'accepted and celebrating'.
I suppose he next that if you talk about "accepting" it implies that there is something that needs to be accepted, and that being gay ought to be as unremarkable as being heterosexual, and no-one talks in terms of straight people needing "acceptance"
"And I think we're finally starting to reach a point where people who are gay are not just tolerated but accepted and celebrated."
Tolerated implies that the majority regard homosexuality as inferior but are prepared to put up with it.
Accepted implies that gay and straight are regarded as equals
Celebrated implies that gay people somehow should be regarded as special and worthy of special appreciation.
The first gay player will hopefully be accepted and celebrated.
The aim must be that gay players are eventually simply accepted just the same as black, ginger, foreign left footed players are and therefore don't need to be "celebrated".
I am pretty sure that was what Chris was aiming for too. Sometimes you have to understand the underlying meaning rather than finding ways to take offence.
I'm wondering what form the celebration should take. I do get very annoyed with people of my generation (and, less frequently, younger folk) who refuse to accept that being "gay" is not a life choice.
I suppose I fall into the "acceptance" category but even that has a pejorative ring. I use the term only in the sense that I treat everyone I meet "as I find them". If I find I cannot "accept" someone (whether gay, bisexual, transsexual or heterosexual) it will be on grounds of personality, attitude or character and I like to think that this will become the "norm" over the next decade or two, wishful thinking as that may be.
PS. I've added the above because my late night 'hear hear' to @drcongo seemed, in the light of subsequent posts, torequire a bit of elaboration!
I think this discussion shows exactly why it is extremely unlikely a gay footballer will ever come out whilst still playing. It's a sad state of affairs but most things that are acceptable norms don't carry this weight of debate.
One of my favourite sports people is Kate Richardson-Walsh, the Team GB hockey captain. A fantastic player and an exceptional leader of her team and ambassador of her sport. If you get a chance listen to her talking about her sport.