Looking in general for a moment, in themselves no, but any marketing professional will tell you that his aim is to have potential customers being aware of, interested in and talking about his product positively. If he can do that, he has more chance that they will then go on to buy his product.
In football context, it is much the same. Hard as it is for those who regularly go to understand, but to many in the catchment area a Lg2 club is not that attractive or interesting in this age of wall to wall premiership football domination. The theory goes that if you can attract their attention, get them talking about the club, you may just persuade some to give the club a go and maybe then get hooked.
You can't have it both ways. You cant constantly complain that the club doesn't market itself and then also complain when it does. Whether it is a value for money marketing strategy depends on cost which we don't know (and in Akinfenwa case whether we see him primarily as a footballer with a marketing benefit attached or the opposite).
Personally I am a little sceptical about the benefits of marketing of any type in respect of Lg2 football clubs but I am prepared to admit I may be wrong.
"Personally I am a little sceptical about the benefits of marketing of any type in respect of Lg2 football clubs but I am prepared to admit I may be wrong."
You're definitely wrong. Better marketing could reap major benefits for the club commercially.
Sure, you have a finite number of potential valuable/repeat customers and businesses - not everyone in the UK lives near Wycombe or operates a business in the area. But the club is definitely missing out on getting people through the gates and sponsors on the advertising hoardings.
I have offered my help pro-bono before. I work for a sports website as an advertising professional. I'm not the most experienced by any means, but I was surprised when the club told me they didn't have anything for me to assist with.
I have my doubts on whether there is latent demand that can be tapped into.
Interesting to hear the views of a professional though.
Could you give us say your three best ideas of what should be done and what the pay off realistically may be
(eg as an example only not a suggestion, spend £10000 per season advertising on the right local radio station, you believe that would generate 200 people more per game generating £80k in revenue)
Of course there is latent demand. The population of Wycombe/Bucks has grown, not shrunk, since the season of 2002/03, when we averaged 6,000 gates and the performances were below par.
We now average home gates of less than 3,000 fairly frequently.
Sure, dropping attendances are not specific to WWFC. Yes, we were in League One, the FA cup was still fresh in people's minds, and it was pre-recession, but we consistently got people through the door to watch WWFC over 23 league games plus the cups who were not die hard fans.
Those people, or those types of people who came in 2002 still exist in Wycombe and surrounding towns. You just need to convince them that a day out at Wycombe is worthwhile - good value and a good time.
You need to make them feel it is better to make the effort to come to AP than watching 3pm Premier League games on a dodgy Arabic streaming site, or even worse watching Jeff Stelling and co. bellowing like idiots in real-time on SS News.
The most obvious to me is the lack of e-mail marketing and telemarketing from the club. They have my address, my telephone number and my email address. I get almost nothing on all fronts.
I know a fair few ex-season ticket holders or regular attendees. They never get an email or a phone call upon ST expiry, or in the years afterwards. In fact, my season ticket only expired last season. I think I got a bog-standard e-mail about the prices for the next year, but nothing more than that.
Give people some offers - tempt them back in. E-mail/telemarketing is still very effective to a 'warm' database. You set up a number of triggers which fire off personalised emails relevant to the individual in question. It takes some time initially, but once it is up and running it pays for itself.
I get more emails from the Trust than I do from Wycombe Wanderers FC. I get more from Brentford FC because I once brought my girlfriend's dad a scarf from their online shop.
You need to make sure people remember WWFC exist if they aren't committed supporters.
I've got other ideas but I feel this post is already long enough, amongst a sea of very long posts.
The official academic definition of "Marketing" from CIM (The Chartered Institute of Marketing) is, "Marketing is the management process responsible for identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer requirements profitably."
Marketing is about identifying what it is your customers want now, predicting what they want in the future, taking action to provide what they want, advertising and promoting it and selling it at a profit. I would say that League Two clubs could definitely benefit from that.
In WWFC's case, customers includes not only the fans, but also others, such as those who use the conference facilities, hire the ground for playing matches (e.g. the FA for England Women and age teams, Reading Women) and so on.
Twitter and other social media tools can be used not only as a means of advertisement of what is on offer or as a means to positively promote the brand - yes, I know some won't like to think of Wycombe Wanderers as a brand, but the more positive publicity there is out there connected with the Wycombe Wanderers name then the more likely it is that people will want to be associated with it themselves, by attending matches or buying merchandise - but can also be used to conduct market research and learn what it is that customers and potential customers want.
Matt Cecil is identified as Head of Media & Marketing for WWFC, although I wonder if this referes to "Marketing" in the sense referred to above or simply to promotion and advertising. I am guessing that some of the "Marketing" may be under the remit of Damian Irvine, given that the press statement issued when he was appointed as Head of Commercial Activities proudly stated that he succedded, in his time at Notts County, in "creating an award-winning marketing campaign, attracting prestigious sponsorship deals to the club and achieving a significant growth in revenue and season ticket sales."
At the same time, though, that press statement, viewable via the link below, did also state that Mr Irvine would "help generate revenue by building and maintaining relationships with supporters", and I cannot say that I've seen much evidence of that. http://www.wycombewanderers.co.uk/news/article/damian-irvine-joins-as-head-of-commercial-activities-2546919.aspx
The clubs communication could improve greatly but is probably down to manpower rather than plan.
I wonder how many people use the official website as a point of reference as this season the daily content has been sparse to say the least. It's an open goal for someone and also adds social media content with click throughs.
I also know of lots of people interested in the club but not currently going to games or buying merchandise. There is definately an untapped market and it's not that tricky to reach them. Someone just needs to do it.
2002/2003, was that just before Wasps moved into town, how much of a factor did their presence have on dwindling attendances over the years. Add into the mix Steve Hayes's behavior following promotion and not building on that success (twice?), but rather using it as bargaining tool to threaten the supporters with, which resulted in 2 relegations. We have never recovered from that period. The Trust, rather naively, thought that once SH had gone then the fans would come flooding back but they didn't, they'd found other things to do (shopping, DIY, watching footie on the telly). How do you win them back ? Success on the pitch. For Success (under the current model) we need more bums on seats.
It's well nigh impossible to successfully market a low budget, struggling football team to Joe Public, even to those who enjoy watching football.
Here's one suggestion, reach out (sorry) to the football enthusiasts out there, who prefer watching Prem footie on the box , either at home or in the pub. Market the bars at AP, the live matches on Sky and BT sport being shown on a matchday and throw in a live League 2 match as well. 12:00 KO, Lunch, beers, WWFC live game and then the 5pm KO and more beers. Some may find they actually enjoy getting behind a real team at a real game, and if they don't , well at least they've spent some money at the bar.
I do agree with you that it would be sensible to contact expired season ticket holders and seek to persuade them to renew, possibly with targeted "come back and give us a go freebies or special offers". If we are not doing that , I would be surprised and a little disappointed.
I presume the point of the CRM system in Hayes days was to allow the club to do similarly for those who generally went to games as a non season ticket holder but then stopped. Target them with a "give us another chance" offer and who knows you may win them back. As I understand it the club is now unable to know precisely who comes and who doesn't so this opportunity no longer applies.
I am far from convinced that random untargeted spam email communication would encourage anybody to go to a game that wasn't going anyway. All it would was piss people off as does the 20-30 spam emails I already get that get deleted unread. I wouldn't sanction that effort and expenditure.
I would be interested in your other ideas if you are prepared to share them. I am not sure there is significant latent demand, but if there is I am well aware that contrary to some views expressed here, changing their behaviour and getting them to buy is bloody hard. I don't see how to do this but then I am not a marketing professional...........
Not sure they have a lot of CRM data these days. Non -renewed season tickets I agree with, but casual attenders - don't think they always know that anymore. Without that data, cant see how you can target and avoid spamming.
@bill_stickers "You just need to convince them that a day out at Wycombe is worthwhile - good value and a good time."
Probably best that we keep the marketing low-key at the moment then!
But seriously, the amount of information available on us is quite scary and with a little effort could be used constructively to target potential/lapsed supporter.
In the political sphere (which is my area of 'expertise') we have a mass of data to target 'our' potential voters to make sure we maximise our turnout on voting days. The effectiveness of this is reliant to some degree on canvassing info which is time-consuming to gather and there is a cost (I've no idea how much the national programme is but its peanuts for us at a local level) but once set up it could prove its worth
Do what any other club does. Market ticket on sale dates, ticket prices, ticket promotions, merchandise, open days. Weekly or monthly newsletter for the younger fans.
It's quite simple to be honest and something that if I remember correctly did used to happen.
If we don't have the data, I'd be happy to lend my expertise so that we start collecting it. Better late than never, it will be worthwhile in the end.
I come from an operations perspective rather than a creative one in the advertising industry.
I like implementing solutions and structures to help marketing and advertising efforts. I'd be happy to donate my time to the club but they didn't seem bothered.
Well yes, but for data collection you have to have systems and you have to invest in the time to collect the data. Obviously this can be a problem when your entire customer base arrives in a very short window (broadly between 2:30 and 2:55pm. Are you suggesting we return to the CRM days when you had to give a postcode to access the ground?
There's a multitude of ways to collect information from your customer base. You can build their profiles up over time, rather than trying to collect a full survey at the turnstyle.
I do have other ideas, not fully formed. I certainly feel our visibility around the town is poor, and in the surrounding towns. I'm not saying we need to book up expensive radio ad slots and giant billboards by the M40, but I can't remember the last time I even saw a game advertising in a pub toilet.
I was kind of hoping I would offer my help, and the club would say, "yes, great, we have lots of ideas which we have so far been unable to execute due to lack of staff/funds." I believe I even said in my email I was happy to help out with any marketing/advertising related tasks "no matter how mundane".
Could not agree more @bill_stickers there are many ways to collect all kinds of data.
A simple list of email addresses from season ticket application forms for one. That can be done in an Excel Spreadsheet if needs be.
whatever happened to the old Junior Blues? An easy win, anyone under the age of 16 can join, automatically if you are a season ticket holder. A monthly update, the odd free ticket for a mate or discount at the club shop. It's not rocket science but it keeps people interested. They will be getting bombarded from the Man Utds and Chelsea's (different budgets I know).
Plenty of other clubs at our level and above can do it.
We could go down the word of mouth route but somehow don't think that would work just now.
Season ticket holder contact details I would expect them to have. I would be a little surprised if they are not following up those who don't renew.
But if you want to target non season ticket holders based on their attendance, i still can't see how you do that unless you track who attends, which is hard to do.
Have to say sticking up posters in pubs doesn't strike me as being likely to be cost effective.
Quite hard to think of practical solutions, come to think of it.
Personally I have long had the thought that I would like to target the local adult leagues. Whether it would work who knows.
The only email that would have the slightest effect at the moment would have to say "Please, please, please come back. We promise it won't be as shit as the last time you came."
@DevC I was thinking of targeting potential supporters not necessarily ones who currently come to the club. For example, I have access to detailed info on approx 12000 people (in targetted wards - not in Wycombe) including ages, hobbies, political leanings (or not) and in one ward attitude to football club.
I do realise (from blisters!) that getting this info is hard work but it does allow you to target those in the 12000 who express sympathy with your cause with emails, texts, leafleting, etc in the aim that they come out and support you on the day. This may not be entirely transferable to a football club but it feels similar.
As a crude example you can buy lists from companies for example of households that subscribe to sky sports and are presumably 'into' football. You could then send emails/leaflets to them, perhaps with introductory offers, inviting them to experience the delights* of watching their local club live. No idea if it would be cost-effective but it may help.
*As previously noted. You do need to sell your product. At the moment it's best not to put it out there on the shelf
There must be a fair bit of info to be obtained from the online ticket sales site. Email addresses , home addresses , data on previous tickets purchased etc
Comments
Does anyone have the slightest clue how Twitter engagement figures benefit the club?
Do they benefit anyone, or anything?
Looking in general for a moment, in themselves no, but any marketing professional will tell you that his aim is to have potential customers being aware of, interested in and talking about his product positively. If he can do that, he has more chance that they will then go on to buy his product.
In football context, it is much the same. Hard as it is for those who regularly go to understand, but to many in the catchment area a Lg2 club is not that attractive or interesting in this age of wall to wall premiership football domination. The theory goes that if you can attract their attention, get them talking about the club, you may just persuade some to give the club a go and maybe then get hooked.
You can't have it both ways. You cant constantly complain that the club doesn't market itself and then also complain when it does. Whether it is a value for money marketing strategy depends on cost which we don't know (and in Akinfenwa case whether we see him primarily as a footballer with a marketing benefit attached or the opposite).
Personally I am a little sceptical about the benefits of marketing of any type in respect of Lg2 football clubs but I am prepared to admit I may be wrong.
"Personally I am a little sceptical about the benefits of marketing of any type in respect of Lg2 football clubs but I am prepared to admit I may be wrong."
You're definitely wrong. Better marketing could reap major benefits for the club commercially.
Sure, you have a finite number of potential valuable/repeat customers and businesses - not everyone in the UK lives near Wycombe or operates a business in the area. But the club is definitely missing out on getting people through the gates and sponsors on the advertising hoardings.
I have offered my help pro-bono before. I work for a sports website as an advertising professional. I'm not the most experienced by any means, but I was surprised when the club told me they didn't have anything for me to assist with.
I have my doubts on whether there is latent demand that can be tapped into.
Interesting to hear the views of a professional though.
Could you give us say your three best ideas of what should be done and what the pay off realistically may be
(eg as an example only not a suggestion, spend £10000 per season advertising on the right local radio station, you believe that would generate 200 people more per game generating £80k in revenue)
Of course there is latent demand. The population of Wycombe/Bucks has grown, not shrunk, since the season of 2002/03, when we averaged 6,000 gates and the performances were below par.
We now average home gates of less than 3,000 fairly frequently.
Sure, dropping attendances are not specific to WWFC. Yes, we were in League One, the FA cup was still fresh in people's minds, and it was pre-recession, but we consistently got people through the door to watch WWFC over 23 league games plus the cups who were not die hard fans.
Those people, or those types of people who came in 2002 still exist in Wycombe and surrounding towns. You just need to convince them that a day out at Wycombe is worthwhile - good value and a good time.
You need to make them feel it is better to make the effort to come to AP than watching 3pm Premier League games on a dodgy Arabic streaming site, or even worse watching Jeff Stelling and co. bellowing like idiots in real-time on SS News.
The most obvious to me is the lack of e-mail marketing and telemarketing from the club. They have my address, my telephone number and my email address. I get almost nothing on all fronts.
I know a fair few ex-season ticket holders or regular attendees. They never get an email or a phone call upon ST expiry, or in the years afterwards. In fact, my season ticket only expired last season. I think I got a bog-standard e-mail about the prices for the next year, but nothing more than that.
Give people some offers - tempt them back in. E-mail/telemarketing is still very effective to a 'warm' database. You set up a number of triggers which fire off personalised emails relevant to the individual in question. It takes some time initially, but once it is up and running it pays for itself.
I get more emails from the Trust than I do from Wycombe Wanderers FC. I get more from Brentford FC because I once brought my girlfriend's dad a scarf from their online shop.
You need to make sure people remember WWFC exist if they aren't committed supporters.
I've got other ideas but I feel this post is already long enough, amongst a sea of very long posts.
Ha ha there he goes again
"You cant constantly complain that the club doesn't market itself and then....."
Who on earth is doing that?
The official academic definition of "Marketing" from CIM (The Chartered Institute of Marketing) is, "Marketing is the management process responsible for identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer requirements profitably."
Marketing is about identifying what it is your customers want now, predicting what they want in the future, taking action to provide what they want, advertising and promoting it and selling it at a profit. I would say that League Two clubs could definitely benefit from that.
In WWFC's case, customers includes not only the fans, but also others, such as those who use the conference facilities, hire the ground for playing matches (e.g. the FA for England Women and age teams, Reading Women) and so on.
Twitter and other social media tools can be used not only as a means of advertisement of what is on offer or as a means to positively promote the brand - yes, I know some won't like to think of Wycombe Wanderers as a brand, but the more positive publicity there is out there connected with the Wycombe Wanderers name then the more likely it is that people will want to be associated with it themselves, by attending matches or buying merchandise - but can also be used to conduct market research and learn what it is that customers and potential customers want.
Matt Cecil is identified as Head of Media & Marketing for WWFC, although I wonder if this referes to "Marketing" in the sense referred to above or simply to promotion and advertising. I am guessing that some of the "Marketing" may be under the remit of Damian Irvine, given that the press statement issued when he was appointed as Head of Commercial Activities proudly stated that he succedded, in his time at Notts County, in "creating an award-winning marketing campaign, attracting prestigious sponsorship deals to the club and achieving a significant growth in revenue and season ticket sales."
At the same time, though, that press statement, viewable via the link below, did also state that Mr Irvine would "help generate revenue by building and maintaining relationships with supporters", and I cannot say that I've seen much evidence of that.
http://www.wycombewanderers.co.uk/news/article/damian-irvine-joins-as-head-of-commercial-activities-2546919.aspx
The clubs communication could improve greatly but is probably down to manpower rather than plan.
I wonder how many people use the official website as a point of reference as this season the daily content has been sparse to say the least. It's an open goal for someone and also adds social media content with click throughs.
I also know of lots of people interested in the club but not currently going to games or buying merchandise. There is definately an untapped market and it's not that tricky to reach them. Someone just needs to do it.
2002/2003, was that just before Wasps moved into town, how much of a factor did their presence have on dwindling attendances over the years. Add into the mix Steve Hayes's behavior following promotion and not building on that success (twice?), but rather using it as bargaining tool to threaten the supporters with, which resulted in 2 relegations. We have never recovered from that period. The Trust, rather naively, thought that once SH had gone then the fans would come flooding back but they didn't, they'd found other things to do (shopping, DIY, watching footie on the telly). How do you win them back ? Success on the pitch. For Success (under the current model) we need more bums on seats.
It's well nigh impossible to successfully market a low budget, struggling football team to Joe Public, even to those who enjoy watching football.
Here's one suggestion, reach out (sorry) to the football enthusiasts out there, who prefer watching Prem footie on the box , either at home or in the pub. Market the bars at AP, the live matches on Sky and BT sport being shown on a matchday and throw in a live League 2 match as well. 12:00 KO, Lunch, beers, WWFC live game and then the 5pm KO and more beers. Some may find they actually enjoy getting behind a real team at a real game, and if they don't , well at least they've spent some money at the bar.
Interesting thought, Bill.
I do agree with you that it would be sensible to contact expired season ticket holders and seek to persuade them to renew, possibly with targeted "come back and give us a go freebies or special offers". If we are not doing that , I would be surprised and a little disappointed.
I presume the point of the CRM system in Hayes days was to allow the club to do similarly for those who generally went to games as a non season ticket holder but then stopped. Target them with a "give us another chance" offer and who knows you may win them back. As I understand it the club is now unable to know precisely who comes and who doesn't so this opportunity no longer applies.
I am far from convinced that random untargeted spam email communication would encourage anybody to go to a game that wasn't going anyway. All it would was piss people off as does the 20-30 spam emails I already get that get deleted unread. I wouldn't sanction that effort and expenditure.
I would be interested in your other ideas if you are prepared to share them. I am not sure there is significant latent demand, but if there is I am well aware that contrary to some views expressed here, changing their behaviour and getting them to buy is bloody hard. I don't see how to do this but then I am not a marketing professional...........
Football is to expensive. The pub is to expensive. The working man has had its day.
I'm not suggesting spamming people. I'm just suggesting, as you mention, that they leverage their CRM data more effectively.
They either aren't doing it, or me and my entire family and friends have been erroneously marked as worthless prospects.
Not sure they have a lot of CRM data these days. Non -renewed season tickets I agree with, but casual attenders - don't think they always know that anymore. Without that data, cant see how you can target and avoid spamming.
Any other ideas? Genuinely interested.
@bill_stickers "You just need to convince them that a day out at Wycombe is worthwhile - good value and a good time."
Probably best that we keep the marketing low-key at the moment then!
But seriously, the amount of information available on us is quite scary and with a little effort could be used constructively to target potential/lapsed supporter.
In the political sphere (which is my area of 'expertise') we have a mass of data to target 'our' potential voters to make sure we maximise our turnout on voting days. The effectiveness of this is reliant to some degree on canvassing info which is time-consuming to gather and there is a cost (I've no idea how much the national programme is but its peanuts for us at a local level) but once set up it could prove its worth
Not sure what you mean in practise, Booker. Could you spell out simply what you are suggesting for WWFC. thanks.
Do what any other club does. Market ticket on sale dates, ticket prices, ticket promotions, merchandise, open days. Weekly or monthly newsletter for the younger fans.
It's quite simple to be honest and something that if I remember correctly did used to happen.
If we don't have the data, I'd be happy to lend my expertise so that we start collecting it. Better late than never, it will be worthwhile in the end.
I come from an operations perspective rather than a creative one in the advertising industry.
I like implementing solutions and structures to help marketing and advertising efforts. I'd be happy to donate my time to the club but they didn't seem bothered.
Well yes, but for data collection you have to have systems and you have to invest in the time to collect the data. Obviously this can be a problem when your entire customer base arrives in a very short window (broadly between 2:30 and 2:55pm. Are you suggesting we return to the CRM days when you had to give a postcode to access the ground?
Any other ideas apart from "CRM related"?
There's a multitude of ways to collect information from your customer base. You can build their profiles up over time, rather than trying to collect a full survey at the turnstyle.
I do have other ideas, not fully formed. I certainly feel our visibility around the town is poor, and in the surrounding towns. I'm not saying we need to book up expensive radio ad slots and giant billboards by the M40, but I can't remember the last time I even saw a game advertising in a pub toilet.
I was kind of hoping I would offer my help, and the club would say, "yes, great, we have lots of ideas which we have so far been unable to execute due to lack of staff/funds." I believe I even said in my email I was happy to help out with any marketing/advertising related tasks "no matter how mundane".
Could not agree more @bill_stickers there are many ways to collect all kinds of data.
A simple list of email addresses from season ticket application forms for one. That can be done in an Excel Spreadsheet if needs be.
whatever happened to the old Junior Blues? An easy win, anyone under the age of 16 can join, automatically if you are a season ticket holder. A monthly update, the odd free ticket for a mate or discount at the club shop. It's not rocket science but it keeps people interested. They will be getting bombarded from the Man Utds and Chelsea's (different budgets I know).
Plenty of other clubs at our level and above can do it.
We could go down the word of mouth route but somehow don't think that would work just now.
Season ticket holder contact details I would expect them to have. I would be a little surprised if they are not following up those who don't renew.
But if you want to target non season ticket holders based on their attendance, i still can't see how you do that unless you track who attends, which is hard to do.
Have to say sticking up posters in pubs doesn't strike me as being likely to be cost effective.
Quite hard to think of practical solutions, come to think of it.
Personally I have long had the thought that I would like to target the local adult leagues. Whether it would work who knows.
An email marketing campaign might be useful for this new 500 campaign :-)
The only email that would have the slightest effect at the moment would have to say "Please, please, please come back. We promise it won't be as shit as the last time you came."
Of course, people would only fall for that once.
@DevC I was thinking of targeting potential supporters not necessarily ones who currently come to the club. For example, I have access to detailed info on approx 12000 people (in targetted wards - not in Wycombe) including ages, hobbies, political leanings (or not) and in one ward attitude to football club.
I do realise (from blisters!) that getting this info is hard work but it does allow you to target those in the 12000 who express sympathy with your cause with emails, texts, leafleting, etc in the aim that they come out and support you on the day. This may not be entirely transferable to a football club but it feels similar.
As a crude example you can buy lists from companies for example of households that subscribe to sky sports and are presumably 'into' football. You could then send emails/leaflets to them, perhaps with introductory offers, inviting them to experience the delights* of watching their local club live. No idea if it would be cost-effective but it may help.
*As previously noted. You do need to sell your product. At the moment it's best not to put it out there on the shelf
There must be a fair bit of info to be obtained from the online ticket sales site. Email addresses , home addresses , data on previous tickets purchased etc
You can indeed buy lists of names and emails and then send them an unsolicited email.
That feels like the very definition of spamming to me.
don't like the idea morally, also frankly don't think it would be cost effective.
The use of the data of the data collected from the online ticket portal however would be perfect.
Demand to hear ideas
Hear ideas
Shoot down ideas
Repeat
@DevC welcome to the modern world. I should point out the obvious - people do this immoral crap because it works.