Hillsborough Last Night
In case you missed it I urge everyone to watch the excellent BBC2 programme on Hillsborough that was shown last night.
I have my own memories of that day watching the horrors broadcast whilst in a bar in London side by side with fans from all different kinds of clubs. We were in an era when anyone who went to football was a 2nd-class citizen who got what they deserved in the eyes of a large part of society.
The dignity and bravery of the families is extraordinary and will bring you to tears. The programme also cover the impact on the honest policemen who were nothing to do with the disgusting events afterwards.
I don't wish physical ill on the people behind the scandal and what happened afterwards, but retribution must be had and that should include loss of pensions, titles (in some cases) and prosecution if possible. Nothing will restore faith but something has to be done.
I wish I was more articulate so I could convey my emotions. Just watch
Comments
Who were Wycombe playing that day? I remember standing at Loakes Park hearing snippets from peoples radios (pre social media eh?)
I couldn't bring myself to watch the programme last night. Too much anger and too many raw emotions. During some groundhopping that season I went to a couple of Liverpool games and stood in amongst their supporters on terraces packed to crushing point. I'll never forget police at QPR shouting at fans to move down the terraces in to space that wasn't there so they could pack more in.
I hope the programme was a good one. I'm not sure I can watch it.
We beat Altrincham 2-1 at Loakes Park that day with goals from Dave Carroll and John Kerr.
It is an incredibly difficult documentary to watch but I would encourage you to do so.
I'd been to see West Ham v Southampton. I think West Ham were relegated that day. We heard of 'trouble' at Hillsborough but of course long before social media etc etc so this was not unusual to get whispers of a perceived punch up. Then of course the spin of blame was already on the BBC. However everyone in the bar was (ahem) fortunate to only have images to watch on the TV and no John Motson (not his fault) to tell us it was due to drunken louts. The images told the story not the spin thankfully.
2 years later I was at QPR v West Ham when a repeat of Hillsborough would have occurred had it not been for the fact that fences were removed at Loftus Road. Absolutely terrifying to be in a crush where you barely breath. That hardly made the press
Taking blood alcohol levels from the victims, running criminal record checks on any that had readings, police statements edited.
You really couldn't make those things up
Reading the Hillsborough enquiry's documents relating to correspondence and communications between South Yorkshire Police and Sheffield Wednesday were quite shocking. The blasé and disdainful attitude toward spectator safety at Hillsborough (particular the Leppings Lane End) meant that the disaster in 1989 was a sad inevitability after numerous near misses owing to indifference and unwillingness to reduce the capacity from the original figure established in 1966.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/229038/0581.pdf
The most shocking part was where the Sheffield Wednesday chairman Bert McGee responded to suggestions by the SYP chief constable that a previous incident in 1981 (the infamous Spurs v Wolves FA Cup semi-final) could have resulted in fatalities with "bollocks! no one could have been killed". It makes you shudder that clueless cretins like him were in charge of safety with far slimmer margins for error than today.
Unfortunately independent supporters organisations were still in their early stages and were struggling to get their voices heard in the media. If this 'On The Ball' fanzine article had been taken heed of, maybe Hillsborough would never have happened (apologies in advance for the title of the article!)
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/SYP000006100001.pdf
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub - I believe the incident at Loftus Road that you refer to was in 1988 rather than 1991, unless I'm getting the two mixed up. As you say, if those barbaric cages were still in place at Loftus Road that day, there could well have been fatalities there as well.
As said above a very difficult programme to watch. Phil Scraton's work, among many others, to help achieve justice for the 96 was heroic. So much brave and honest journalism to expose the lies and deceit.
Is that Adrian Goldberg as in the radio five bloke?
I have just watched this this evening. It was indeed a harrowing two hours.
The scandal here is not the event itself. There were some new facts that I wasn't aware of, but fundamentally as with all disasters it was a result of a number of unrelated often minor events and mistakes coming together to result in a disaster.
The scandal is not really the actions of Duckenfield himself. He didn't go to work that morning intending to cause 96 people to die. He made an error and froze as the horror unfolded. We all make errors at work, his tragically resulted in people dying.
The scandal is not really in Duckenfield's lies immediately afterwards. In the trauma of a man trying to come to terms with the fact that he had inadvertently killed so many people, irrational behaviour is perhaps understandable.
The scandal comes that people not directly scarred by the events of the day, able to consider the events objectively, that those people should chose to lie to protect their employer in an event as significant as 96 people dying. I confess for many years I tended to believe the official line, why would they lie?, what purpose would it serve? I still find it hard to believe the extent of the official cover-up and to understand quite what it was supposed to achieve.
The villians of the peace here are not Duckenfield but his bosses who consciously put the Forces reputation ahead of the truth. They are the ones I would like to see punished in any way possible.
The Katie Hopkins of the gasroom has spoken.
An unbelievably stupid post. Duckenfield's day of reckoning is coming and it can't come a moment too soon
I suspect Duckenfield's day of reckoning comes every day when he looks at himself in the mirror. He made a mistake at work that had absolutely disastrous consequences.
I stand by the opinion that the actions of those above him, not directly affected by the incident, not bearing the direct blame themselves for the incident were, able to think clearly and objectively and choosing to lie were and are infinitely worse than those of Duckenfield himself.
Your worst trolling yet. Disgraceful
Sorry Eric, you are just wrong if you believe Duckenfield's actions are the worst thing about Hillsborough. The programme we have both watched made that very clear.
Duckenfield was an inexperienced police commander who made a terrible operational error in a difficult situation. As a direct result of that error 96 people died. He watched them die in front of him and in the horror froze and compounded his initial error. While the tragic events were unfolding, he lied about their cause, the programme made that clear.
Perhaps those lies were conscious, perhaps in the horror of the events he wasn't able to come to terms with the fact that what he could see happening was his fault. Who knows how any of us would react in such awful circumstances. So it is undeniable that Duckenfield's work decisions were poor, that those decisions caused 96 deaths and his lies afterwards contributed to the injustice that followed.
Duckenfield's immediate bosses were not affected my stress, or at least not to anything like the same extent. They did not act in the heat of the moment, but calmly and rationally. They were the ones who ordered the cover-up, they were the ones that ordered statements to be changed. They were the ones who colluded to assign blame away from where it correctly lay. They were the ones who continued to cast aspersions almost to this day. They deliberately, consciously and knowingly took actions that resulted in a great injustice and continued those lies for 25 years.
I don't of course condone Duckenfield's actions, but I suspect he himself has suffered greatly as he has come to terms with the results of his actions, and rightly so you may very well argue. The real evil though is not Duckenfield but those nameless faceless bosses who DELIBERATELY denied the families of the victims the truth for 25 years. For me they are the ones who should be punished.
You have no idea what you are talking about
I find your attempts to portray Duckenfield as an almost sympathetic character are a scandalous insult to the memory of the 96 and all their loved ones who have valiantly fought for justice whilst he has retired on a full pension, raking in over a million pounds in the process
You are either monumentally stupid or even the loss of so many innocent lives is not out of bounds for your legendary trolling. Either way I will not be continuing this discussion with you further, and I will allow other gasroomers to make up their minds as to your character and motives
I'm sorry, but Duckenfield has covered his own hide and only stopped 26 (TWENTY-SIX) years after the disaster when the position was made completely untenable by the inquest into the disaster. His superiors may have joined in, but all it would have taken was for him to put his hands up and reveal the truth, rather than drag the families of the dead, the survivors and all LIverpool supporters through the mud as being those responsible for the disaster.
It wasn't a just a matter of 'freezing', he was responsible for the whole policing operation which was found to be deficient in consideration of supporter safety. The failure to close off the tunnel to the central pens (as was common procedure at the ground under the previous commander) was simply the arrogance of the man that he felt that he didn't need to prepare properly for the match.
I have absolutely no sympathy for Duckenfield, I hope he gets sent down for his criminal negligence and perverting the course of justice. If he does go down, my only regret would be that it wasn't 27 years earlier.
I can see the point that Dev is trying to make, that those who passionlessly ordered the cover up from their positions of power are the real villian - that essentially it is the institution of the police that is to blame rather than any individual.
While I have some sympathy with this, I don't think it's helpful to say the scandal wasn't the event (clearly it was - the police should have been better at their job, and not caused the death of 96 innocents) or the actions of Duckenfield either on the day (he was the senior officer responsible and he should rightly be held accountable for his errors) or subsequently (he might not have been the only actor in the cover-up, but he certainly was one. And I don't think that 'covering your own back' is much of a defence). It is quite correct that the focus shouldn't entirely be on Duckenfield as a convenient scapegoat (although I don't think think it is anyway) but the leadership at SYP who from that day forward have obstructed the attempts to reveal the truth in order to protect the reputation of the institution, and forced the families to fight for justice for so many years which is quite the opposite of what we should expect the police to be doing.
That programme was extremely effective in telling the story of a tragic event followed by utterly disgraceful cover-up. Anyone who watched that programme without being affected emotionally needs to have a look at themselves. I certainly felt anger last night not so much at Duckenfield but at the faceless people behind the scenes who coldly and calculatingly perpetuated the lie.
There were many aspects of the programme that were new to me and inevitably more questions. I wasn't aware that a similar incident had occurred in a cup semi a few years before - fortunately without tragic consequences - why were the lessons of that not learnt. OK so the normal match police commander became unavailable at the relatively last minute, but why was there no contingency planning for this in advance - that commander could have had a car accident on the way to work or a heart attack or just flu. Surely it would have been sensible to plan for this eventuality by having a deputy trained on smaller matches ready to step in. Many a cup semi final had taken place at Hillsborough, and they were just about all sell-outs, without the same level of crush outside the stadium, so what were the factors that meant this time the turnstiles would not have been capable of admitting the crowd safely until half time. When Duckenfield froze, why did his deputy in the control box not step up and take control - did he freeze too? Why did the authorities not realise that pens was a health and safety disaster waiting to happen. Why was the signposting to the side pens so inadequate that well behaved supporters were drawn to the centre area?
The jury at the recent hearing concluded that the 96 were unlawfully killed and we must respect that. While Duckenfield is not solely responsible for the incident itself, the assumption must be that they having heard the evidence must have concluded that his actions amounted to criminal negligence suggesting that he was guilty of (at least) manslaughter. That programme didn't really make me angry towards him though - he didn't deliberately make a gross mistake with tragic consequences (and I hadn't realised previously that the decision to open the gates appears from the programme to have been justifiable , the failing was then to fail to block the access to the tunnel and direct those supporters to the side pens). He had to watch people dying as a result of his actions - that for any human being must have been a traumatic experience which may reasonably be expected to have taken years to come to terms with - to expect him to act rationally in its aftermath is perhaps expecting a little too much from any human being.
So Duckenfields policing is appallingly weak compounded by police lackof contingency planning and training and yes of course that was a scandal. Duckenfield himself must take responsibility for those actions and if the law says that is a crime, then he must take responsibility for that too. Whether he has responsibility for his part in the immediate cover up would depend on medical evidence as to his mental capacity at the time.
But I stand by the view that that scandal is small compared to the cover up that followed. That scandal is arguably the biggest of our time. The establishment will be delighted if once the first cover up attempt failed, the blame for what happened simply focuses on one man. That is not where our anger should be focused IMHO.
Had the authorities performed as they should have post Hillsborough, we would think very differently about that tragedy. A tragic event caused by a series of blunders compounded by extremely poor policing decisions amounting to criminal negligence resulted in the deaths of 96 people. Most football supporters of the time could think of at least one incident when "but for the grace of god, it could have been them". Lessons would have been learnt, the potential for another repeat avoided.
The biggest scandal for me is not negligent policing by an incompetent commander but the cool calm calculated campaign of lies afterwards. The worst lies didn't come from a possibly mentally ill Duckenfield but by his superiors. They ordered the cover up. They organised the amendment of statements. They leaked false stories to the press. They DELIBERATELY hid the truth to protect their organisation at the cost of the victims, their families and potential future victims.
If you want to concentrate your ire at Duckenfield, go ahead, the establishment will be delighted. But that was not the message of last nights excellent programme. The worst part of the events of Hillsborough was the deliberate systematic campaign of lies by the establishment over a 25 year period, continued even at the latest inquest. If we truly want justice for the 96 and their families, it is those who consciously decided to follow this approach who should be exposed and vilified and if possible face retribution from society.
I intend to make no further comment.
Duckenfield was guilty of incompetence, something his bosses should be accountable for when appointing a man who referred to the game as Liverpool v Nottinghamshire. However his biggest sin which he should see jail time for let alone pension punishment was to blame the innocent fans like you and I whilst some were stilling dying. This lie stood as fact for over 2 decades and was the cornerstone to every skewed investigation into the disaster.
I can forgive his incompetence I can never even contemplate the pain he put those families through, many who died before the real truth came out, when he had every opportunity to make matters right.
My faith in the police and justice system wavered that day, it has pretty much shrivelled and disappeared since.
@ReadingMarginalista was the QPR v West Ham game really then? Crap I am getting old. I can only date it as Spurs lost to Port Vale in the cup.
In my opinion Duckenfield is as guilty as anybody.
Mr Duckenfield, on a similar note to the Sun newspaper, knew the lies all along.
It was only when they were proved, that they decided to issue an apology.
I agree his superiors were also negligent.
The documentary was excellent but it didn't expand on the 1981 semi final between Spurs and Wolves. That day exit Gate C was also opened to alleviate pressure on the turnstiles. The main differences between 81 and 89 were:
Firstly - the kick off was delayed until 3:15, allowing the stewards to ensure a slightly more controlled and timely entrance through exit gate C
Secondly - and most importantly - the central tunnel led to an open terrace. Which was not divided in to pens allowing fans to spread out.
Even with these in place, there were injuries including broken bones.
The fact that the guys in charge at SYP were not aware of this shows Gtross negligence and a lack of preparation in my opinion.
That's where I am on him. There's no excuse for him stringing his bullshit out for 26 years.
As someone else said, who cares about degrees of worseness, the man's actions are a disgrace and I hope he's punished to remind coppers like him that they aren't guaranteed to be above the law. 20 years living on the south coast with a full pension and a troubled conscience is not quite enough in my opinion.
Haven't watched the docco as yet, but as far as I understand it he avoided attending any of the usual pre-match briefings, despite having never policed a semi-final before...and ignored the concerns of more experienced officers. Then once he had dropped a bollock he and his force used the media and local politicians to do his best to demonise the victims and the survivors. It's something more than 'a mistake at work' when 96 people die. That's like the Yorkshire Ripper making a few mistakes while he was relaxing with a sex worker.
To argue that Duckenfield is anything other than entirely culpable, and deserving of the strongest possible punishment, is extraordinary.
I'm not sure Dev is saying that @floyd , but he does instead seem to be coming at it from a very odd angle of "well, yeah he sorta massively screwed up but there were bigger things to moan about".
It's true that Duckenfield was a product of the institutional arrogance of the police at the time (especially the SYP after their role as a quasi-paramilitary force during the miners strike), though he has surely has to have the book thrown at him for his callous failure to own up to what he did in covering up for SYP and evading justice for himself.
To suggest leniency should be shown to someone who has such a cynical disregard to all those that were collateral damage in his actions, is insulting to many who have no connection to the tragedy other than being football supporters, I shudder to think how hurtful that would be to anyone who lost anyone or was traumatised by the disaster personally.
The establishment have moved on with their cover-up. With the initial lies blown, they have thrown out a sacrificial lamb in Duckenfield in the hope that that will sate the masses’ thirst for justice so that the bigger villains, the bigger cheeses in this sorry story can get away relatively untouched. I would urge you to think a bit deeper about what happened and about who should be vilified and not let them get away with it. Too many are focusing their ire solely on Duckenfield.
There is no doubt that Duckenfield’s actions on that tragic day played a significant part in causing the tragedy, a significant part in events that led to 96 people being unlawfully killed. Duckenfield deserves whatever vilification and society’s retribution is due to him for those actions.
Personally in circumstances when one person’s actions have unintentionally lead to another’s death, I tend to have a degree of mixed feelings. While feeling anger at their actions and the consequences thereof, especially when they are grossly negligent, and feeling massive sympathy for the innocent victims and their families, there is a small part of me at this stage that feels a degree of empathy at just how difficult it must be to live with yourself afterwards and come to terms with the fact that your actions caused another’s death. I feel that empathy for Luke McCormick, for the teenage kid who shows off to his girlfriend and drives home drunk and tragically crashes the car and kills his girlfriend, I would have felt that empathy for Mark Philo had he lived, I feel that empathy for the families and friends of the victims and I feel that empathy at some level for Duckenfield. You are free of course not to feel the same way, I understand that.
Then we turn to the lie Duckenfield told at c 1515 on that tragic day and only corrected 25 years or so later. On this issue I suspend judgement on Duckenfield without knowing the medical evidence.
If he made that decision to tell that lie consciously in a compos mentis condition, he deserves huge condemnation and vilification and the full force of the law. His actions would be indefensible. The empathy I mentioned in the prior paragraph would be misplaced.
IF however his mind was so disturbed by the enormity of the tragedy caused by his decisions unfolding in front of him, that he did not have sufficient mental capacity to hold legal responsibility for his decision to lie then or later, then I am not on principle going to criticise a mentally incapacitated man for actions caused by his incapacity. I make no claim that this is what happened, I would want to be reasonably sure it didn't before assigning blame here.
So Duckenfield reserves condemnation at least for his decisions that lead to the tragedy and very possibly, unless medical evidence of his mental state excuses them, for his lies afterwards. I am certainly not here to defend him.
But while vilifying Duckenfield, however reprehensible his actions were, don't lose sight of the others, of the even worse villains in my judgement in this sorry story. Duckenfield’s lies shouldn't have mattered much, or certainly not for very long. There was ample evidence of what really happened in respect of opening the gates (deputy, policemen who were ordered to open the gates, witnesses to the gates being opened) such that senior offices of the SYP could, should and almost certainly DID know precisely what happened within a matter of hours or worst case a day or two. They should have corrected the lie straight away. If they had done so, it didn't really matter what Duckenfield himself said. The victims and their families would have had their explanation, their apology and their justice. The lessons to ensure it never happened again would have been learnt.
They coldly dispassionately unemotionally while in complete command of their mental capacity CHOSE not to, they chose to hide the truth, they chose to order a massive cover up, they chose to order statements to be changed to perpetuate the lie, they chose to issue lies to the press to vilify the victims and they were still choosing to lie at the most recent inquest. Those actions seem to me even more reprehensible than Duckenfield’s.
Heap whatever vilification you wish to on Duckenfield, he may well deserve it all, but for goodness sake while doing so don't allow yourself to heap your vilification on just one man. That is what the establishment want you to do and I fear too many in their rightful indignation are doing. Don't allow yourself to forget or ignore those whose actions were far far worse even than Duckenfield’s in this scandal. Don’t allow the scandal of Hillsborough to be pigeon-holed in one man however reprehensible. Don't let the faceless greater villains get away with it.
But most are concentrating their ire on one man. And that is wrong and misunderstanding the story of the Hillsborough scandal. Duckenfield's name is known. Few, including me, know the name of the Chief Constable of SYP at the time who probably would have known and approved of the extent of the cover-up and campaign of lies his force were engaged in. If not him, somebody very senior would have. If I had the choice of just one man, Duckenfield or that man, to go to jail for this scandal, it wouldn't be Duckenfield.
I knew I said I'd leave this but I can't let it go unchallenged.
No-one is in any way "focusing solely" on Duckenfield. There are plenty who deserve the justice that is coming their way, some of whom you have mentioned
All people have done is challenge your assertion that Duckenfield is someone we should almost feel sorry for. That is offensive and can't go unchallenged. He has behaved appallingly for over a quarter of a century and has undoubtedly exacerbated the families' suffering. People have every right to be angry at the way he has behaved
Typically, because of the way you believe you are on some morally and intellectually higher plane to everyone else on here, you have misinterpreted that as singling him out for blame. People have articulated clearly and intelligently their view on this and you have refused to listen, blocked by your own arrogance.
For God's sake just stop. I can just about put up with your nonsense when it comes to talking about football. Not about this
By the way Peter Wright was the Chief Constable of the SYP at the time. He died in 2011. Plenty of people on here would have known this having taken an active interest in the campaign for years. I certainly did. I'd be prepared to bet that, for example, Reading Marginalista did as well.
Same way as people know who Paul Middup, Norman Bettison, Irvine Patnick, Graham Mackrell, Bernard Ingham and Kelvin Mackenzie are, to name but a few
You seem to be under the assumption that all anyone knows about it was the recent documentary
Lastly, why would only one man have to go to prison? What a stupid thing to say
I will ignore your abuse .
I am not arguing that you should feel sorry for Duckenfield (beyond some human understanding that he too will have no doubt suffered - you may well argue deservedly so) or justifying his actions. I am arguing that others behaved worse and deserve at least equal and I would argue stronger condemnation.
If you allow Duckenfield to become the sole villain in the eyes of the public, you are doing a great injustice to the victims and their families. The scandal is much greater than one man. That is all I am asking you not to do.
I said I wouldn't comment any more. For once I will take your advice. Enough now.
And I've told you that I'm not doing that
Had you not made your terrible post I'd never have mentioned him