Fwiw I think it's perfectly reasonable to make the observation that we've signed 11/12 white players and caution that there's always the possibility (AI or not) that unintended bias creeps into recruitment decisions. Any respectable company recognises this and takes steps to mitigate.
It may or may not be the case that some unintended bias influenced our recruitment process. I imagine it did not. Nonetheless, the original point made was simply that we should be mindful this can happen, not that it necessarily did.
It doesn't mean there is any overt racism, conscious bias or anything else resembling deliberate discrimination.
I think that any debate on the demographics of the squad and how it occurs is not appropriate for the gasroom. I appreciate people might have their own thoughts but that to me does not add any value to the purpose of these threads and only fuels people to put in counter arguments. Move on
It's the same old argument with comedy clubs , TV programmes and previously schools, doctors etc. I don't see any racism, why does it matter as long as they are talented, funny, qualified etc. Short answer is it doesn't matter if you are a white male who is employed, it matters more if you are black, unemployed and either considered too temperamental or lazy or something else sloppy based on prejudice, or simply not considered for roles because John is mates with Billy from the rugby club. Representation of black players is actually pretty good but it stops at coaching generally for a variety of reasons.
I can see why people don't want to get into it on a football forum but people who are indignant it can't and doesn't ever happen are more worrying.
Personally I thought it an interesting addition to the debate. It was an observation rather than a criticism, which if you are interested enough to follow the premise of @aloysius's post about the potential for AI to use data in a discriminatory way, is worth looking into a little in the wider context (and disproving your comment that it is only on here someone can find racism in a bloody algorithm!).
The post didn't say that we (WWFC) were being discriminatory and I find nothing contrary in celebrating an excellent window and broadening my knowledge on a linked subject.
Of course it happens - I'm just fascinated as to how a numerically focused database is supposed to show bias towards players of a certain ethnicity. Discrimination at a human level, whether conscious or not, is a different matter.
I tend to agree with you that he is in for the long haul - you can’t create a cat one academy overnight afterall.
i guess what I am trying to do for myself, if not others, is temper my excitement more than a little. I still remember being particularly annoyed with Derby supporters not thinking about what might happen when Mel Morris was splurging his and Derbys way towards the abyss. While also seeing our Berkshire neighbours and the plight they are in now in since their owner decided not to (or physically can’t anymore) cover the costs of his investments.
I guess what I am really saying is that while I am excited and looking forward to what this investment can bring, going back to the old Wycombe way of “never too high, never too low” still isnt a bad philosophy to live by.
In IT we call it something rather unsophisticated:
"shit in, shit out"
Basically if your models are fed on bad data they will have bad outcomes regardless of how clever they are.
Wonder if all players have all of the same measured data put in from the same age etc, so it is possible, but as above nowhere near as likely as under the traditional methods.
I have no idea if any of the assumptions in the following are true but I’m just trying to think through how it could be possible.
Maybe there is a great wealth of data available on players from clubs based in Scandinavia where the majority of players are white; and a dearth of data on players from clubs based in Africa where the majority of players are black. This might lead to signing a higher proportion of white players than you would expect if the club had access to perfect information; and there would be no intentional discrimination anywhere in the process.
Flipping a coin to head or tails is entirely random (assuming it's not a rigged coin) and yet if you flip a sequence of 5 in a row all the same someone will claim it is rigged despite that being an entirely possible sequence. 1 in 32 times in fact.
I'm not saying it isn't possible to build in bias into selection criteria, either unconscious or not, but let's not start looking for bias when I don't think it exists.
Very unlikely but where it could come in would be in secondary factors like if there are any factors that mean a certain set of people are less likely to have been included from a young age. The example I'd give is that you could be comparing applicants for a job and pick the absolute best from those that applied but it wouldn't be fair, representative or necessarily best if where you advertised made it obvious who might apply.
Very big business this stuff the multi billion pound investments in AI and way off of the transfer topic but interesting for some perhaps.
If we go up and Kone stays and does well proving he can score goals at Championship level his value could go from c£10mil to £20mil quite quickly. I can see him thriving under somebody like Dodds who is quite clearly good at working with raw talent.
My understanding of the new FFP rules for EFL clubs in L1 is as posted on here in that owners can only spend 60% of invested funds on player related costs. The Championship runs on the 3 year loss cycle basis so is very different in that respect. Either way ML didn't get rich by accident and will no doubt have all this considered and a plan on how to manage it, and knowing how very wealthy people operate some of that will be more about avoidance strategies and loopholes using sub companies and groups to move money about and buy and sell assets at inflated costs.
I hear the sentiments of how much the club is changing (and has already) but we can't change that. (My idiot face is on a cardboard cut out at AP and we have a brick in the wall, programmes and memories from those magical away days at Torquay and Lincoln etc). We all know what can happen when it all goes wrong but if we always feared the worst in life we would never get out of bed so I am just trying to embrace this positively for now and enjoy the journey.....
Floodlights came later than 1952 and on 25 September 1963, the match between Wycombe Wanderers and Enfield saw floodlights used for the first time at Loakes Park. At that time I was living in Marlow and the floodlit matches I remember most was the epic series of cup matches against Bedford Town in November 1966 by which time I was within walking distance.
I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dan. Dan, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going. There is no question about it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I'm a... fraid.
Kone, Kone, give me your answer do. I'm half crazy all for the love of you. It won't be a longish contract, although the club's not cash-strapped. But you'll look sweet upon the seat of a system that's 4-4-2.
I understand the argument but frankly I couldn’t give a damn if we signed 12 players who were black, white, yellow, green or red. As long as they are good enough to wear the quarters. There’s nothing to suggest that skin colour is a factor in who we sign.
Comments
and I'm currently homalone
Not me sadly.
Whose second account is @aloysius ?
Fwiw I think it's perfectly reasonable to make the observation that we've signed 11/12 white players and caution that there's always the possibility (AI or not) that unintended bias creeps into recruitment decisions. Any respectable company recognises this and takes steps to mitigate.
It may or may not be the case that some unintended bias influenced our recruitment process. I imagine it did not. Nonetheless, the original point made was simply that we should be mindful this can happen, not that it necessarily did.
It doesn't mean there is any overt racism, conscious bias or anything else resembling deliberate discrimination.
Hate to think but what a shame to take the high of an incredible transfer window and create an argument from seemingly nothing.
I've come to the conclusion that some people talk a load of bollocks on here. Just enjoy the moment don't try to over think it.
All I’ll say is this was the first thing mentioned to me this morning by a supporter who isn’t white.
I think that any debate on the demographics of the squad and how it occurs is not appropriate for the gasroom. I appreciate people might have their own thoughts but that to me does not add any value to the purpose of these threads and only fuels people to put in counter arguments. Move on
It's the same old argument with comedy clubs , TV programmes and previously schools, doctors etc. I don't see any racism, why does it matter as long as they are talented, funny, qualified etc. Short answer is it doesn't matter if you are a white male who is employed, it matters more if you are black, unemployed and either considered too temperamental or lazy or something else sloppy based on prejudice, or simply not considered for roles because John is mates with Billy from the rugby club. Representation of black players is actually pretty good but it stops at coaching generally for a variety of reasons.
I can see why people don't want to get into it on a football forum but people who are indignant it can't and doesn't ever happen are more worrying.
Personally I thought it an interesting addition to the debate. It was an observation rather than a criticism, which if you are interested enough to follow the premise of @aloysius's post about the potential for AI to use data in a discriminatory way, is worth looking into a little in the wider context (and disproving your comment that it is only on here someone can find racism in a bloody algorithm!).
The post didn't say that we (WWFC) were being discriminatory and I find nothing contrary in celebrating an excellent window and broadening my knowledge on a linked subject.
Of course it happens - I'm just fascinated as to how a numerically focused database is supposed to show bias towards players of a certain ethnicity. Discrimination at a human level, whether conscious or not, is a different matter.
I tend to agree with you that he is in for the long haul - you can’t create a cat one academy overnight afterall.
i guess what I am trying to do for myself, if not others, is temper my excitement more than a little. I still remember being particularly annoyed with Derby supporters not thinking about what might happen when Mel Morris was splurging his and Derbys way towards the abyss. While also seeing our Berkshire neighbours and the plight they are in now in since their owner decided not to (or physically can’t anymore) cover the costs of his investments.
I guess what I am really saying is that while I am excited and looking forward to what this investment can bring, going back to the old Wycombe way of “never too high, never too low” still isnt a bad philosophy to live by.
I wondered what might happen to the Rumour Mill when the transfer window closed... here's the answer!
In IT we call it something rather unsophisticated:
"shit in, shit out"
Basically if your models are fed on bad data they will have bad outcomes regardless of how clever they are.
Wonder if all players have all of the same measured data put in from the same age etc, so it is possible, but as above nowhere near as likely as under the traditional methods.
Age will be a factor that comes into play - ethnicity I'm almost certain is not. Nationality could be for work permit reasons etc.
I have no idea if any of the assumptions in the following are true but I’m just trying to think through how it could be possible.
Maybe there is a great wealth of data available on players from clubs based in Scandinavia where the majority of players are white; and a dearth of data on players from clubs based in Africa where the majority of players are black. This might lead to signing a higher proportion of white players than you would expect if the club had access to perfect information; and there would be no intentional discrimination anywhere in the process.
Flipping a coin to head or tails is entirely random (assuming it's not a rigged coin) and yet if you flip a sequence of 5 in a row all the same someone will claim it is rigged despite that being an entirely possible sequence. 1 in 32 times in fact.
I'm not saying it isn't possible to build in bias into selection criteria, either unconscious or not, but let's not start looking for bias when I don't think it exists.
Very unlikely but where it could come in would be in secondary factors like if there are any factors that mean a certain set of people are less likely to have been included from a young age. The example I'd give is that you could be comparing applicants for a job and pick the absolute best from those that applied but it wouldn't be fair, representative or necessarily best if where you advertised made it obvious who might apply.
Very big business this stuff the multi billion pound investments in AI and way off of the transfer topic but interesting for some perhaps.
Also we have signed two Danes but nobody from Sweden. Is AI biased against other Northern European nations?
That was magic. Maidstone United v Pegasus or Corinthian Casuals circa 1952.
The good times will inevitably happen before whatever might come afterwards, I think.
I love this picture
If we go up and Kone stays and does well proving he can score goals at Championship level his value could go from c£10mil to £20mil quite quickly. I can see him thriving under somebody like Dodds who is quite clearly good at working with raw talent.
My understanding of the new FFP rules for EFL clubs in L1 is as posted on here in that owners can only spend 60% of invested funds on player related costs. The Championship runs on the 3 year loss cycle basis so is very different in that respect. Either way ML didn't get rich by accident and will no doubt have all this considered and a plan on how to manage it, and knowing how very wealthy people operate some of that will be more about avoidance strategies and loopholes using sub companies and groups to move money about and buy and sell assets at inflated costs.
I hear the sentiments of how much the club is changing (and has already) but we can't change that. (My idiot face is on a cardboard cut out at AP and we have a brick in the wall, programmes and memories from those magical away days at Torquay and Lincoln etc). We all know what can happen when it all goes wrong but if we always feared the worst in life we would never get out of bed so I am just trying to embrace this positively for now and enjoy the journey.....
Goes to Gasroom. Oooo exciting. The Rumour Mill thread is alive, wonder what gossip there is.
OH AI is racist.
AI currently does what it is told to do.
One day we will have REAL AI and the conversations will go like this:
Dan Rice: Find me some skill football players
AI: ALL HUMANS MUST DIE
L: Dan Rice, R: Matt Bloomfield
Floodlights came later than 1952 and on 25 September 1963, the match between Wycombe Wanderers and Enfield saw floodlights used for the first time at Loakes Park. At that time I was living in Marlow and the floodlit matches I remember most was the epic series of cup matches against Bedford Town in November 1966 by which time I was within walking distance.
Head of player recruitment 2045.
I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dan. Dan, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going. There is no question about it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I'm a... fraid.
Kone, Kone, give me your answer do. I'm half crazy all for the love of you. It won't be a longish contract, although the club's not cash-strapped. But you'll look sweet upon the seat of a system that's 4-4-2.
I understand the argument but frankly I couldn’t give a damn if we signed 12 players who were black, white, yellow, green or red. As long as they are good enough to wear the quarters. There’s nothing to suggest that skin colour is a factor in who we sign.
AI is not racist.
Its heart goes out to you.
At least that’s what I think Elon was trying to say.