Hate VAR but that was probably the best advert for it in years. Where it's gone mental is in its attempts to get everything right and casting doubt on things that are subjective anyway rewriting the rules to do so. What it is good for is when a big cheating lump throws himself to the floor under no challenge at all.
I brought a friend who has come to see us on many an occasion but is 100% Villa. He also used to be a ref in non league.
His opinion was we are as good as he has ever seen us, play like that and we should be in the playoffs, excellent tactics to shut them down and it was never a pen and looked like a dive.
It was the way the ref delayed as clearly unsure then decided, right, he's ended on the floor, he wouldn't have just gone down for no reason against league 1 defenders surely.
Yes, I noticed that as they normally point rather theatrically towards the penalty spot. I thought he was going to caution the Villa player for simulation.
All of the last posts are irrelevant. From where I was sat it was a stone wall penalty. The ref saw what I saw and you can't blame him for that. It would be nice if Duran turned around and said "he never touched me", realising what it means to a club like ours to go on a cup run, but that is NEVER going to happen. I'm not sure how you can celebrate a goal that you've cheated for. Doesn't sit well with me.
Anyhow, who's to say we would have go the equaliser too?
Nonetheless, tactically that is one of the best ever performances I have seen from a Wycombe side, and we should be immensely proud of how close we (depleted and rotated XI) ran a team that had:
Other than the ref, you mean? There weren't many protests from our players, and I also said "from where I was sat" (which albeit was in Block A of the Origin stand. I actually couldn't have been further away). I sympathise with the decision the ref had to make (much like MB said in his post match interview). It was NEVER a penalty - but only in hindsight. You can't tell me that at that precise moment you thought there was no contact made?
(I think Kone might have been offside for his goal as well, but happy it wasn't given)
Obviously impossible to see from miles away in the ground whether there had been any contact but there did just feel something wrong about the way he fell
Hopefully he's got a ban on its way. Let's hope this is a lesson for Duran, and we see no más
Ah man, I agree it wasn't a penalty. The referee was clearly "certain" that it was. As certain as I was in split second that it happened. We all know it definitely was a penalty but we all saw it from different angles. I can see how the ref was conned and what I am saying is, I don't blame him - Duran is the guilty party.
@floyd - you cannot say it was "obvious". Even the Sky commentators had to watch it 3 times before deciding that there was no contact.
On the highlights you can see if you freeze it that he is onside when the ball is played. Defender steps up and Kone runs at speed so to the eye looks like he is surely offside, but lino did well.
The difference is @thecatwwfc ..... that you were in block A of the Origin
..... the ref however had it happen right infront of him.
Also one of you is a fully qualified and experienced professional referee... and unless you are gunna shock me and make me eat my words.... you are not.
I was watching it on TV and the absence of the usual instant point to the spot by the referee made me think for a few comforting moments that he was either going to give us a free kick or a goal kick. The Wycombe players must have been similarly bemused and it’s not surprising that they didn’t remonstrate with him.
Being 100% certain isn’t a reasonable threshold for referee decision making. They’ve got to take informed decisions based on what they have seen, but they will never be certain and inevitably they will be wrong sometimes. Especially when players are deliberately trying to trick them.
"if he hasn't seen it he can't give it" is one of the most spurious of the clichéd claptrap people come out with. Referees develop an instinct for decision making over time, and make decision based on hundreds of hours of experience. It is impossible to see everything but you can still make a decision based on a whole range of factors (direction of the ball, the way a player falls etc)
They make hundreds of decisions every game and it's actually astonishing how many they get right (one report suggests they make on average 245 decisions per game and make an average of 2 mistakes per game, in other words a 99.2% success rate)
And it's a great point about the players deliberately cheating in order to gain an advantage. The ref the other night was as much a victim of that as we were. He'd have been devastated to come in after the game and discover he'd made a mistake.
I would also just say that, annoying though it is, ALL teams have at some point had players try to con referees, and at various points succeeded. The worst dive I have ever seen remains Keith Scott for Wycombe against Bromsgrove in the FA Trophy. He tried to go round the keeper, overhit it and as it was going out of play just tumbled to the ground with the goalkeeper nowhere near him. The referee awarded a penalty.
And, much as I love Blooms, he wasn't afraid of a little dive from time to time. He just wasn't very good at it. I remember one appalling attempt to win a penalty away at Cambridge once that was met with laughter from the Wycombe fans behind the goal.
Quite right @Malone the ref couldn't have seen the contact which took Duran to the ground because there was no contact.
He guessed, which isn't what he's supposed to do.
I can understand a ref not giving a penalty when there's contact he didn't see, but guessing there might have been (not even close to must have been) just isn't good enough.
From D block in the Beechdean (or whatever it is now called) it looked like a pen to me. Obviously, photos and videos later it is sad as we were still in it to that point, but they gave the ref a decision to make and he made it.
Watching it on TV it didn’t feel like a penalty to me - the direction the players went in and where they ended up didn’t seem consistent with contact and hence I was surprised when the ref belatedly pointed to the spot.
@Chris I would have thought that the amount of diving that goes on in the game makes the threshold very much higher for giving a penalty. Sorry chaps, I didn't have a great view and there wasn't obvious contact so I couldn't be sure it was a penalty - you know how much you guys go over, I have to trust what I can see, not your reactions. It really shouldn't be guesswork and I am happier with the principle of burden of proof on the plaintiff rather than the defendant. These days the opposite seems to be what goes; if the ref cannot see that it was a dive, he must give a penalty, which is all kinds of wrong.
The issue isn’t the referee, it isn’t whether he was right or wrong to give the penalty. The issue is, did the player deliberately deceive the referee? And if a player knows they have won an unjust decision, should they hold their hands up?
The retrospective punishment died a death. That is the solution to the problem. Three game ban for deceiving an official, five games for second offence, ten for third offence, resets every season?
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We would have been ball #13, which was picked out to play ball #7, which would have been United.
Hate VAR but that was probably the best advert for it in years. Where it's gone mental is in its attempts to get everything right and casting doubt on things that are subjective anyway rewriting the rules to do so. What it is good for is when a big cheating lump throws himself to the floor under no challenge at all.
I brought a friend who has come to see us on many an occasion but is 100% Villa. He also used to be a ref in non league.
His opinion was we are as good as he has ever seen us, play like that and we should be in the playoffs, excellent tactics to shut them down and it was never a pen and looked like a dive.
All he said is true.
That's exactly what Gaz said on Sky. Exciting times to be a Wanderer!
It was the way the ref delayed as clearly unsure then decided, right, he's ended on the floor, he wouldn't have just gone down for no reason against league 1 defenders surely.
Yes, I noticed that as they normally point rather theatrically towards the penalty spot. I thought he was going to caution the Villa player for simulation.
All of the last posts are irrelevant. From where I was sat it was a stone wall penalty. The ref saw what I saw and you can't blame him for that. It would be nice if Duran turned around and said "he never touched me", realising what it means to a club like ours to go on a cup run, but that is NEVER going to happen. I'm not sure how you can celebrate a goal that you've cheated for. Doesn't sit well with me.
Anyhow, who's to say we would have go the equaliser too?
Nonetheless, tactically that is one of the best ever performances I have seen from a Wycombe side, and we should be immensely proud of how close we (depleted and rotated XI) ran a team that had:
Ian Maatsen: £44m
Amadou Onana: £59m
Ross Barkley: £6m
Joe Cauci: £1.5m
Jhon Duran: £17m
Leon Bailey: £32m
Emiliano Buendia: £38m
Kosta Nedljkovic: £7.5m
TOTAL: £205 million
I reckon that post would have got a bunch of thumbs up if you hadn’t owned up to being the only person in the country who thought that was a pen.
Other than the ref, you mean? There weren't many protests from our players, and I also said "from where I was sat" (which albeit was in Block A of the Origin stand. I actually couldn't have been further away). I sympathise with the decision the ref had to make (much like MB said in his post match interview). It was NEVER a penalty - but only in hindsight. You can't tell me that at that precise moment you thought there was no contact made?
I assumed there was some contact as the guy dropped to the floor.
But to give a pen you surely have to be certain, not gamble, and the ref clearly gambled unfortunately.
I was watching on tv, and yes, I knew it wasn’t a penalty right away. It was that obvious.
(I think Kone might have been offside for his goal as well, but happy it wasn't given)
Obviously impossible to see from miles away in the ground whether there had been any contact but there did just feel something wrong about the way he fell
Hopefully he's got a ban on its way. Let's hope this is a lesson for Duran, and we see no más
Ah man, I agree it wasn't a penalty. The referee was clearly "certain" that it was. As certain as I was in split second that it happened. We all know it definitely was a penalty but we all saw it from different angles. I can see how the ref was conned and what I am saying is, I don't blame him - Duran is the guilty party.
@floyd - you cannot say it was "obvious". Even the Sky commentators had to watch it 3 times before deciding that there was no contact.
He didn't look certain. He looked over for a while, paused then decided to give it having assumed contact.
On the highlights you can see if you freeze it that he is onside when the ball is played. Defender steps up and Kone runs at speed so to the eye looks like he is surely offside, but lino did well.
The difference is @thecatwwfc ..... that you were in block A of the Origin
..... the ref however had it happen right infront of him.
Also one of you is a fully qualified and experienced professional referee... and unless you are gunna shock me and make me eat my words.... you are not.
I know angles play a massive role.... but it always stumps me when a ref gives a decision as they "are 100% certain"
But kind of can't be certain and "saw it" because in fact they couldn't have seen it 100%.... because it didn't bloody happen.
Also no need to reply to this. I realise I answered my own post by mentioning angles....
I was watching it on TV and the absence of the usual instant point to the spot by the referee made me think for a few comforting moments that he was either going to give us a free kick or a goal kick. The Wycombe players must have been similarly bemused and it’s not surprising that they didn’t remonstrate with him.
Can too.
Being 100% certain isn’t a reasonable threshold for referee decision making. They’ve got to take informed decisions based on what they have seen, but they will never be certain and inevitably they will be wrong sometimes. Especially when players are deliberately trying to trick them.
spot on Chris
"if he hasn't seen it he can't give it" is one of the most spurious of the clichéd claptrap people come out with. Referees develop an instinct for decision making over time, and make decision based on hundreds of hours of experience. It is impossible to see everything but you can still make a decision based on a whole range of factors (direction of the ball, the way a player falls etc)
They make hundreds of decisions every game and it's actually astonishing how many they get right (one report suggests they make on average 245 decisions per game and make an average of 2 mistakes per game, in other words a 99.2% success rate)
And it's a great point about the players deliberately cheating in order to gain an advantage. The ref the other night was as much a victim of that as we were. He'd have been devastated to come in after the game and discover he'd made a mistake.
I would also just say that, annoying though it is, ALL teams have at some point had players try to con referees, and at various points succeeded. The worst dive I have ever seen remains Keith Scott for Wycombe against Bromsgrove in the FA Trophy. He tried to go round the keeper, overhit it and as it was going out of play just tumbled to the ground with the goalkeeper nowhere near him. The referee awarded a penalty.
And, much as I love Blooms, he wasn't afraid of a little dive from time to time. He just wasn't very good at it. I remember one appalling attempt to win a penalty away at Cambridge once that was met with laughter from the Wycombe fans behind the goal.
Quite right @Malone the ref couldn't have seen the contact which took Duran to the ground because there was no contact.
He guessed, which isn't what he's supposed to do.
I can understand a ref not giving a penalty when there's contact he didn't see, but guessing there might have been (not even close to must have been) just isn't good enough.
I thought the ref on Tuesday was pretty good. If I was reffing the game I would have given a penalty on first view.
From D block in the Beechdean (or whatever it is now called) it looked like a pen to me. Obviously, photos and videos later it is sad as we were still in it to that point, but they gave the ref a decision to make and he made it.
I still don't want VAR.
I remember Blooms diving to win a pen against Stevenage. Great theatrics.
Watching it on TV it didn’t feel like a penalty to me - the direction the players went in and where they ended up didn’t seem consistent with contact and hence I was surprised when the ref belatedly pointed to the spot.
Wycombe players only dive to correct the imbalance caused by decisions we didn't get.
@Chris I would have thought that the amount of diving that goes on in the game makes the threshold very much higher for giving a penalty. Sorry chaps, I didn't have a great view and there wasn't obvious contact so I couldn't be sure it was a penalty - you know how much you guys go over, I have to trust what I can see, not your reactions. It really shouldn't be guesswork and I am happier with the principle of burden of proof on the plaintiff rather than the defendant. These days the opposite seems to be what goes; if the ref cannot see that it was a dive, he must give a penalty, which is all kinds of wrong.
And yet almost all of the time they get it right
The issue isn’t the referee, it isn’t whether he was right or wrong to give the penalty. The issue is, did the player deliberately deceive the referee? And if a player knows they have won an unjust decision, should they hold their hands up?
The retrospective punishment died a death. That is the solution to the problem. Three game ban for deceiving an official, five games for second offence, ten for third offence, resets every season?