Just feel the minute the reaction is abusive then the argument is lost. Why not put out a counter argument, (on here I mean), then we can make our own minds up based on the points put forward? 🤷♂️
You can't always dictate how people chose to converse. They will respond how they feel appropriate based on what they are seeing and how strongly they feel. It's up to you if you want to engage.
Abuse doesn't help but it also doesn't mean that person is wrong. Most people are still pretty decent on here most of the time. If Mr Harman is actually responsible for the stream of tweets in his name he can probably cope with a bit of industrial language and would have heard worse in his old job.
The mute button for accounts is excellent. I try to avoid muting people for a one-off but one that has a pattern of behaviour that is at odds with my values I tend to mute. Only cos I worry I could end up in a shouty exchange with these people, which doesn't help anyone especially me.
There have been a lot of public figures that have had very public meltdowns and I do wonder how they got there.
‘Turn off RTs,’ is the best feature on Twitter, particularly for cases like this.
The medium is the message of course, and that’s part of the problem. 280 characters doesn’t provide space for deep thought or insight, so everything becomes a fandom. ‘This is what my team says, so I’m going to say it too.’
If someone is allowed to have a view that "supermarkets, airports, malls, and other public places should have a designated area for black people to brawl in" (reposted by Neil Harmann 3 days ago) then someone else can think that people who hold that view are twats. Freedom of speach/thought can't be applied to one and not the other.
With respect, there's absolutely nothing legitimate about the views that Harman's twitter account is promoting / sharing. If anything, they are largely dangerous, offensive and downright absurd. Some people / views aren't worth debating or treating with reason.
I must admit to not being an X / Twitter member, but I googled 'Neil Harman twitter' to see what all the fuss is about.
The page that came up, had posts about how terrible the previous Tory government was, the disastrous effect of Brexit, and football-related stuff about the Dutch getting karma for what happened in the past. All of which, I believe, is in sync with the views of the majority of Gasroomers here.
So what is this obnoxious stuff he's been posting?
One of his most recent retweets was about the west being run by satanic paedophiles. I’m not sure that’s a common view held by gasroom members. There’s plenty of other racist nonsense on there as well
Anyone is entitled to an opinion. Anyone is entitled to take issue with that opinion.
What should then happen is that the ‘opinion’ should then be subjected to rational debate using available facts and analysis of said facts until a reasoned conclusion about where the original opinion fits along the ‘bat-shit crazy’ scale.
Anyone who refuses to engage in such debate and just shouts louder (eg Mr Farage) should have their opinion then measured on that basis.
That’s all well and good until you end up having 400 arguments about the same thing with different people who copy the same lies, memes, hot takes, links or opinions dressed up as “facts” and it doesn’t change anything because their opinion is worth more than actual fact.
You can be all noble,get on your high horse take the moral high road and waste all your time debating them, or you can think “oh ffs. Not another prick.” And move on. It’s conversational whack-a-mole.
I should 100% do more of the later.
i mean, isn’t that how friendship groups and opinions on people you like have always formed? All your close mates are decent guys, although everyone can be a bit of a prick at times.
Your acquaintances are people you get on with for a bit but are a bit more of a prick so you spend less time with them.
Everyone else is, to a greater or lesser extent, a prick and you try and avoid them. Lots of people you haven’t met so you don’t know how much of a prick they will be yet. Might be near zero - could be massive.
here’s the kicker though. The friendship groups you are not part of, probably think you’re a bit of a prick too.
tl:dr everyone is a prick to someone because everyone’s opinions don’t align.
Yes, I am a prick to the downthumbers of this post. I’m slightly less of a prick to anyone that upthumbs.
I’m comfortable with that.
Edit: back on topic. The person that’s been tweeting those things comes across as a prick. Fact. 😉
The views that Neil Harman is parroting are horrendous, if he repeated them on the terrace he'd deserve to be silenced with a swift right hook not just be ejected.
They're so clearly beyond the limits of acceptable that anyone pretending otherwise is also someone I wouldn't I'd want to be associated with.
That was a matter of tact and awareness really, even if you firmly believe the fairly odd thing he seemed to then you need more thought for who you are representing in the job he had. I don't think he meant harm, he was being a bit thick but not wicked, he wasn't advocating for the stance and hadn't sought an audience to share that info, he just seemed when asked to think that might be what happens and he probably isn't entirely alone despite it being a horrible look for someone at the pinnacle of a sport.
Barton and his ilk are often after likes and views and see it a way to make a living without having to pretend you have any basic decency, or after you've proved beyond any doubt that you don't have any.
I must say that you have responded to my flippant comment, that I spent zero seconds considering other than linking two people in the footballing world that have made comments that seem too strong and offensive to the majority.... with a really measured, considered and thought provoking reply.
Person A is concerned about something they have seen or read on the news.
He / she looks for an explanation on a particular platform and gets a talking head blaming whoever or whatever and soon as they watch it the algorithm says hey this guy wants more of this and fetches a dozen more talking heads extending the bias, this as you say leads him to forums of like minded angry people echoing his rhetoric . Rinse and repeat for years .
I would like to think that my interest in obscure music, cars and football teams has shielded me from the worst but I see it all around me these days .
Really good points. I always say people are most likely to be deceived by people they already broadly agree with.
I also think there may be a "tug of war" aspect to divided cultures like the UK and USA, where pulling away from the other side moves into more extreme territory.
I'm surprised there hasn't been more concern about Twitter/X since Musk got hold of it. He's clearly a lunatic and the platform has become horrendous for perpetuating extreme views of all colours, shapes and varieties since he took over (it was already pretty dangerous). There are some credible attempts at a fact checking system on there to flag things which are outright false, but beyond that it is a total shit show. There are also quite obviously loads of bots operating, probably invented by hostile states aiming to ferment division. It's pretty concerning, particularly when you see incidents like Southport this evening, which has been stirred up by social media.
I don’t know about this. There’s plenty of extreme rightist stuff going on, but are there really hundreds of tankies out there calling for Bolshevik revolution?
I can only speak as someone who hates politics, has never voted and will never vote, and to whom both "sides" seem thoroughly bonkers! I know I am in the minority, but to me politicians seem much more similar to each other than to the people voting for them.
There was one election here not long after I arrived where both chaps were part of the same secret society! Nowadays they are probably busy calling each other extremist in public and laughing about it later over an expensive cognac at the lodge.
Also, anyone I know who is into politics is always unhappy even if their favourite team is the one ruling over the divided house of Eurasia, Eastasia or Oceania for that particular time.
Comments
Just feel the minute the reaction is abusive then the argument is lost. Why not put out a counter argument, (on here I mean), then we can make our own minds up based on the points put forward? 🤷♂️
Some things are better countered with ridicule than reason.
By that measure, Neil Harman lost the argument a long time ago. Pretty much all he posts is abuse and race-baiting.
You can't always dictate how people chose to converse. They will respond how they feel appropriate based on what they are seeing and how strongly they feel. It's up to you if you want to engage.
Abuse doesn't help but it also doesn't mean that person is wrong. Most people are still pretty decent on here most of the time. If Mr Harman is actually responsible for the stream of tweets in his name he can probably cope with a bit of industrial language and would have heard worse in his old job.
Having worked with several people from India, over in Slough, they didn't like the arrival of migrant workers from Eastern Europe.
The mute button for accounts is excellent. I try to avoid muting people for a one-off but one that has a pattern of behaviour that is at odds with my values I tend to mute. Only cos I worry I could end up in a shouty exchange with these people, which doesn't help anyone especially me.
There have been a lot of public figures that have had very public meltdowns and I do wonder how they got there.
‘Turn off RTs,’ is the best feature on Twitter, particularly for cases like this.
The medium is the message of course, and that’s part of the problem. 280 characters doesn’t provide space for deep thought or insight, so everything becomes a fandom. ‘This is what my team says, so I’m going to say it too.’
If someone is allowed to have a view that "supermarkets, airports, malls, and other public places should have a designated area for black people to brawl in" (reposted by Neil Harmann 3 days ago) then someone else can think that people who hold that view are twats. Freedom of speach/thought can't be applied to one and not the other.
With respect, there's absolutely nothing legitimate about the views that Harman's twitter account is promoting / sharing. If anything, they are largely dangerous, offensive and downright absurd. Some people / views aren't worth debating or treating with reason.
As George Bernard Shaw probably didn’t say, “I learned long ago never to wrestle a pig. You both get dirty, but besides, the pig enjoys it”.
I'm glad I muted him a long time ago.
It's unhealthy to only read messages from people who share your own values but there comes a point where you have to say 'whoooooo nelly'
I agree, everyone is entitled to hold whatever view they like on a subject. Even if, inevitably sometimes they will be wrong.
What shouldn't be a given is the right to always spout that view to others.
If your views, or the views you are repeating, are so obnoxious to the majority I see no problem in you being silenced.
I must admit to not being an X / Twitter member, but I googled 'Neil Harman twitter' to see what all the fuss is about.
The page that came up, had posts about how terrible the previous Tory government was, the disastrous effect of Brexit, and football-related stuff about the Dutch getting karma for what happened in the past. All of which, I believe, is in sync with the views of the majority of Gasroomers here.
So what is this obnoxious stuff he's been posting?
One of his most recent retweets was about the west being run by satanic paedophiles. I’m not sure that’s a common view held by gasroom members. There’s plenty of other racist nonsense on there as well
No-one here is your PA, just look.
obnoxious=to the right of Rory Stewart
Anyone is entitled to an opinion. Anyone is entitled to take issue with that opinion.
What should then happen is that the ‘opinion’ should then be subjected to rational debate using available facts and analysis of said facts until a reasoned conclusion about where the original opinion fits along the ‘bat-shit crazy’ scale.
Anyone who refuses to engage in such debate and just shouts louder (eg Mr Farage) should have their opinion then measured on that basis.
Absolutely, which has been my point all along though not as well put as you. 👏
That’s all well and good until you end up having 400 arguments about the same thing with different people who copy the same lies, memes, hot takes, links or opinions dressed up as “facts” and it doesn’t change anything because their opinion is worth more than actual fact.
You can be all noble,get on your high horse take the moral high road and waste all your time debating them, or you can think “oh ffs. Not another prick.” And move on. It’s conversational whack-a-mole.
I should 100% do more of the later.
i mean, isn’t that how friendship groups and opinions on people you like have always formed? All your close mates are decent guys, although everyone can be a bit of a prick at times.
Your acquaintances are people you get on with for a bit but are a bit more of a prick so you spend less time with them.
Everyone else is, to a greater or lesser extent, a prick and you try and avoid them. Lots of people you haven’t met so you don’t know how much of a prick they will be yet. Might be near zero - could be massive.
here’s the kicker though. The friendship groups you are not part of, probably think you’re a bit of a prick too.
tl:dr everyone is a prick to someone because everyone’s opinions don’t align.
Yes, I am a prick to the downthumbers of this post. I’m slightly less of a prick to anyone that upthumbs.
I’m comfortable with that.
Edit: back on topic. The person that’s been tweeting those things comes across as a prick. Fact. 😉
The views that Neil Harman is parroting are horrendous, if he repeated them on the terrace he'd deserve to be silenced with a swift right hook not just be ejected.
They're so clearly beyond the limits of acceptable that anyone pretending otherwise is also someone I wouldn't I'd want to be associated with.
And people thought Glen hoddles comments about disabled people many moons ago were bad.... well they were.... but this prick is next level messed up
That was a matter of tact and awareness really, even if you firmly believe the fairly odd thing he seemed to then you need more thought for who you are representing in the job he had. I don't think he meant harm, he was being a bit thick but not wicked, he wasn't advocating for the stance and hadn't sought an audience to share that info, he just seemed when asked to think that might be what happens and he probably isn't entirely alone despite it being a horrible look for someone at the pinnacle of a sport.
Barton and his ilk are often after likes and views and see it a way to make a living without having to pretend you have any basic decency, or after you've proved beyond any doubt that you don't have any.
I wonder how exposure to social media algorithms slowly move people towards greater extremist views .
That's a really interesting thought, and echo chambers surely can't be healthy.
I must say that you have responded to my flippant comment, that I spent zero seconds considering other than linking two people in the footballing world that have made comments that seem too strong and offensive to the majority.... with a really measured, considered and thought provoking reply.
self administered propaganda .
Person A is concerned about something they have seen or read on the news.
He / she looks for an explanation on a particular platform and gets a talking head blaming whoever or whatever and soon as they watch it the algorithm says hey this guy wants more of this and fetches a dozen more talking heads extending the bias, this as you say leads him to forums of like minded angry people echoing his rhetoric . Rinse and repeat for years .
I would like to think that my interest in obscure music, cars and football teams has shielded me from the worst but I see it all around me these days .
Really good points. I always say people are most likely to be deceived by people they already broadly agree with.
I also think there may be a "tug of war" aspect to divided cultures like the UK and USA, where pulling away from the other side moves into more extreme territory.
I'm surprised there hasn't been more concern about Twitter/X since Musk got hold of it. He's clearly a lunatic and the platform has become horrendous for perpetuating extreme views of all colours, shapes and varieties since he took over (it was already pretty dangerous). There are some credible attempts at a fact checking system on there to flag things which are outright false, but beyond that it is a total shit show. There are also quite obviously loads of bots operating, probably invented by hostile states aiming to ferment division. It's pretty concerning, particularly when you see incidents like Southport this evening, which has been stirred up by social media.
I don’t know about this. There’s plenty of extreme rightist stuff going on, but are there really hundreds of tankies out there calling for Bolshevik revolution?
I can only speak as someone who hates politics, has never voted and will never vote, and to whom both "sides" seem thoroughly bonkers! I know I am in the minority, but to me politicians seem much more similar to each other than to the people voting for them.
There was one election here not long after I arrived where both chaps were part of the same secret society! Nowadays they are probably busy calling each other extremist in public and laughing about it later over an expensive cognac at the lodge.
Also, anyone I know who is into politics is always unhappy even if their favourite team is the one ruling over the divided house of Eurasia, Eastasia or Oceania for that particular time.