@flymofrank I do think it’s probably a generational thing so please forgive us our raging against the dying of the light.
We have had a very recent thread though which does demonstrate the long-lasting effect's that cup replays have on supporters.
The recent discussion about Real Bedford led a fair proportion of us to remember (and add to the discussion) Bedford Town and the spate of replays in the 60s and later in the 70s. Without those replays most of us would just have a vague recollection of going to a ground once with a very big stand.
I understand that in a world where it is possible to analyse everything that happens on a football pitch there is a fascination and interest in that and recognise that the sheer amount of information can trump my ‘yeah that wasn’t much cop’ detailed match report but strangely knowing that we had a 76% successful pass rate (or whatever) will never actually make me feel any different about the game I’ve just witnessed. (That’s what Rebellion or Roasted Nuts is for…).
But I can’t lend a hand so I’ll get out of the way…
And this is football that we are not invited to see, losing replays that would be aired on terrestrial in favour of European foot which has been behind a paywall for at least 30 years. Everyone loses from the fan to the armchair interest to the football pyramid both clubs and players, 7 or 8 already mega-rich clubs stand to get marginally richer but will be just as moany about not being able to always field their strongest eleven through sheer weight of games.
@bluntphil has just put up on ‘X’ highlights of THE Wimbledon replay, if ever evidence was needed of the magic of the cup and the value of replays. @glasshalffull great commentary, you wouldn’t know who he was supporting 😉
I think there's merit in considering a group stage for the League Cup. Although the numbers make it tricky to get a sensible format.
You'd have to do something like Lg1 & 2 teams go into a group phase of 48 teams. 12 groups of 4 with the top 12 going through, plus 8 best runners up. They're then joined by Championship and PL teams for a second group phase of 64 teams. Either a knockout at that point or 16 groups of 4 with 1st and 2nd going through to a round of 32, at which point it becomes a knockout.
For lower division teams it presents a chance to get into a group with 3 games against Championship/PL opposition.
You'd obviously want to regionalised the initial group stage.
The 28 Lg1/2 teams to miss out could then be whittled down to 12. Maybe the worst 4 are eliminated altogether, with the other 24 then playing a single knockout round. The 12 winners then join the 20 successful Lg1/2 teams for a 32 team knockout round for the EFL Trophy.
It's quite complicated but would make both the EFL Trophy and EFL cup more interesting for Lg1/2 teams I think.
Trouble is it introduces some extra games, which many would object to.
This decision is almost as popular as the 'European Super League'. Awful awful decision that only benefits one league which is the Premier League (PL). There has been no understanding from the FA over the importance of this competition to all of those clubs in the English game outside of the PL & its just another example of money taking over from everything else.
I understand that some teams are pulled apart from Internationals & European Football but this is the English game, they must know this before signing up.
I saw ever game of the FA Cup run, remember being at Wimbledon for the shoot-out with the chairmen of my junior football club, the excitment of getting a police escort into Filbert Street, giving/throwing Essandoh the end of my flag at Leicester that he worn in every photo.
I'm really sorry @flymofrank but you haven't covered yourself in glory here and sometimes, it worth holding your hands up & agreeing to disagree and moving on.
@Otter87 No, I just have an opinion that goes against the Gasroom consensus (and I have the self-awareness to recognise that). Certain people seem to get very offended by that and start taking snide personal digs. All very unnecessary. But yes, I'm the one who's not covered myself in glory...
Change the League Cup so it only features the three leagues below the Premier League. Remove the U21 teams from the BSM and replace them with teams from the National League.
That way we can keep FA Cup replays without tiring out Premier League players.
While many of us have very fond memories of long past FA Cup matches going back to Newport County and Middlesbrough in my case, it does have to be acknowledged that the FA Cup has lost much of its allure in recent years even for “smaller clubs”. Remember our home FA Cup match this season “attracted” just 1600 supporters.
Isn't it just getting to a point now that the big 5/6/7 clubs or whatever should just setup their own league with Real Madrid etc and go play in space.
Leave domestic fans with the game and culture we enjoy and don't feel a need to mess with it to maximise revenue.
As possibly the only poster marooned on a liferaft with @flymofrank , I can see that the arguments in favour of keeping FA Cup replays are largely emotional ones, with reference to the romance of the FA Cup where a minnow can dream of knocking out a big fish, and with particular reference to WWFC famous replay victories in years gone by.
To try and introduce some logic into the debate, replays in cup matches were first introduced in the 1870s, when teams such as Royal Engineers, Old Etonians, and The Wanderers featured heavily in the final stages of the Cup. There was no limit to the number of times a match could be replayed, with the game between Alvechurch and Oxford City requiring a record 5 replays in 1971-72 before a winner was found. In 1991-92, replays were limited to one, with penalty shootouts being introduced to settle the outcome at the end of extra time.
The League Cup came into being in 1960, with the EFL Trophy beginning in the 1981-82 season, both competitions having undergone various name changes.
So today, teams in Leagues 1 and 2 face a schedule of 46 League games, obviously their main priority, plus however many rounds they survive in the FA Cup, League Cup and EFL Trophy. That is a far more crowded schedule than was the case back in the early days, and there is also the possibility of League fixtures having to be rearranged due to International call-ups, and postponements due to frozen and waterlogged pitches, our recent game vs Port Vale and next week's Tuesday game at Cambridge being examples of such.
Additional games such as FA Cup replays put an increased strain on the players and the squad size, as well as increasing the risk of injury to key men. They are an anachronism which has become unnecessary in 2024, there is only a finite amount of money to go round, and only a finite number of available matchdays. Scrapping them was the right decision.
“The FA’s own statistics show that, over the past decade, there have been 228 replays in the FA Cup, with 19 of those matches featuring an EFL club away at a Premier League side, and 12 of those matches taking place in front of crowds of over 25,000. That means at least one EFL club each year would ordinarily get a substantial financial benefit from a replay, but non-league clubs would stand to benefit further.
This season, Cray Valley PM, who play in step 4 of non-league, earned a home replay against League One Charlton Athletic in the first round of the Cup. According to their chair, Frank May, the outcome was transformative. “Getting a draw at Charlton and then losing on penalties would have not only denied our fans the euphoria they experienced but also benefits that the replay gave us”, he said. “A chance to get the club’s name ‘out there’, the chance for part-time players to pit their skills against the full-timers [again], and of course, the revenue. This money will be used to upgrade facilities at our ground to enable us to achieve a ground grading for Step 3 and to better prepare the stadium for any future visits from League clubs in the FA Cup. Denying lower league clubs the chance to get that feeling again shows just how out of touch the FA, and especially the Premier League, are with the non-league game.”
And I seem to remember Martin O’Neil saying something about the replay at Peterborough in the FA Cup in our first season as being a game-changer in the team’s mentality and learning from that was fundamental to our future success.
(Not to forget the buzz around town for that Boston replay the previous round. Which is another point. Getting a draw and then the excitement of a ‘big’ team if you win the replay can be really good at building excitement and bringing new people to the ground).
Oh @bargepole, you miss the point. With finances being really tight for all those outside of the Premier League & are now being watched closely, The FA Cup can provide a welcome relief to those bank balances. I believe that all clubs share the gate of fixtures plus the TV Revenue can sometimes double or triple the normal matchday income for some clubs. Having a minnow club taking a 'big club' to a replay, in a bigger stadium where 20,000 plus fans there gives players the opportunity to make a name for themselves or memories of playing in a big stadium that they might not have another chance to do so.
If you look at the public response from the EFL and a few of the clubs, I'm guessing that the majority of them are against this even though this change was aimed to help their fixture lists. Premier League clubs sometimes don't appreciate how light their fixture lists are compared to the rest of the fixture list. They start their season later than everyone else, have 8 less league fixtures, have a week's break in Jan/Feb, start all of the national competitions later than League 1 or 2 clubs and have no involvement in the Bristol Street Motors competitions. However, the Premier League clubs are struggling? Are they being serious or am I missing something?!?
Outside of the National League, they have more fixtures to fit into their fixture lists! FA Cup, FA Trophy/Vase & League & County Cup Competitions as well as their league and yet the FA does nothing to support or help them to try and compete their fixture lists after awful weather and often set up them up to fail in some situations. (Of course, there are exceptions)
They are messing with the oldest football tradition in the world and they have done this without any care, thought or respect of the wishes for the rest of the footballing pyramid
I agree with some of the arguments here. The quality of football across the divisions has improved dramatically in the last 15 years or so. This is down to a number of factors, including better pitches, more money in the game and better players being pushed down the pyramid through the PL's ability to recruit the best players globally. Another key factor is better conditioning - sports science, diet, training methods etc. Loading too many games onto players reduces quality and shouldn't be ignored.
The issue for me isn't so much the desire to reduce the fixture burden, but how we're going about it.
Games could be taken out of the calendar by ditching u-21 teams from the EFL Trophy, PL teams cutting back on overseas tours and pre season tournaments. That would create extra capacity to retain PL replays.
I suspect this will earn plenty of down votes but I wouldn't mind seeing a case for restructuring the FL to 4 divisions of 18. PL stays at 20 with the remaining 72 split into 4: Championship, Lg1, Lg2, Lg3. That would increase the entertainment level by squeezing the flabby mid table in each league and increasing the frequency of promotions relegations. It would also take games out of the calendar, reducing the crappy winter midweek games in the FL. The extra capacity could be used to expand the play offs (e.g to the National League format), bring back FA cup replays, and beef up the EFL Trophy/EFL Cup.
Comments
I recognise it, I just don't *feel* it myself. But maybe that's a generational thing.
If we abolish replays but make extra time 90 minutes, that should win the Gasroom over....
@flymofrank I do think it’s probably a generational thing so please forgive us our raging against the dying of the light.
We have had a very recent thread though which does demonstrate the long-lasting effect's that cup replays have on supporters.
The recent discussion about Real Bedford led a fair proportion of us to remember (and add to the discussion) Bedford Town and the spate of replays in the 60s and later in the 70s. Without those replays most of us would just have a vague recollection of going to a ground once with a very big stand.
I understand that in a world where it is possible to analyse everything that happens on a football pitch there is a fascination and interest in that and recognise that the sheer amount of information can trump my ‘yeah that wasn’t much cop’ detailed match report but strangely knowing that we had a 76% successful pass rate (or whatever) will never actually make me feel any different about the game I’ve just witnessed. (That’s what Rebellion or Roasted Nuts is for…).
But I can’t lend a hand so I’ll get out of the way…
Outside chance that the bloke.was me as.I hugged a total stranger too. I feel there was a lot of it going around at the end that night.
And this is football that we are not invited to see, losing replays that would be aired on terrestrial in favour of European foot which has been behind a paywall for at least 30 years. Everyone loses from the fan to the armchair interest to the football pyramid both clubs and players, 7 or 8 already mega-rich clubs stand to get marginally richer but will be just as moany about not being able to always field their strongest eleven through sheer weight of games.
Crikey, didn’t realise. I assume nothing came of it in that match?
That’s right, not a single review.
I was convinced we were going to give away about half a dozen penalties with our ‘dark arts’!
@bluntphil has just put up on ‘X’ highlights of THE Wimbledon replay, if ever evidence was needed of the magic of the cup and the value of replays. @glasshalffull great commentary, you wouldn’t know who he was supporting 😉
I think there's merit in considering a group stage for the League Cup. Although the numbers make it tricky to get a sensible format.
You'd have to do something like Lg1 & 2 teams go into a group phase of 48 teams. 12 groups of 4 with the top 12 going through, plus 8 best runners up. They're then joined by Championship and PL teams for a second group phase of 64 teams. Either a knockout at that point or 16 groups of 4 with 1st and 2nd going through to a round of 32, at which point it becomes a knockout.
For lower division teams it presents a chance to get into a group with 3 games against Championship/PL opposition.
You'd obviously want to regionalised the initial group stage.
The 28 Lg1/2 teams to miss out could then be whittled down to 12. Maybe the worst 4 are eliminated altogether, with the other 24 then playing a single knockout round. The 12 winners then join the 20 successful Lg1/2 teams for a 32 team knockout round for the EFL Trophy.
It's quite complicated but would make both the EFL Trophy and EFL cup more interesting for Lg1/2 teams I think.
Trouble is it introduces some extra games, which many would object to.
i can’t find the post @perfidious_albion
Can you share please?
This decision is almost as popular as the 'European Super League'. Awful awful decision that only benefits one league which is the Premier League (PL). There has been no understanding from the FA over the importance of this competition to all of those clubs in the English game outside of the PL & its just another example of money taking over from everything else.
I understand that some teams are pulled apart from Internationals & European Football but this is the English game, they must know this before signing up.
I saw ever game of the FA Cup run, remember being at Wimbledon for the shoot-out with the chairmen of my junior football club, the excitment of getting a police escort into Filbert Street, giving/throwing Essandoh the end of my flag at Leicester that he worn in every photo.
I'm really sorry @flymofrank but you haven't covered yourself in glory here and sometimes, it worth holding your hands up & agreeing to disagree and moving on.
@Otter87 No, I just have an opinion that goes against the Gasroom consensus (and I have the self-awareness to recognise that). Certain people seem to get very offended by that and start taking snide personal digs. All very unnecessary. But yes, I'm the one who's not covered myself in glory...
https://x.com/mattcecil87/status/1780921461625987390
Change the League Cup so it only features the three leagues below the Premier League. Remove the U21 teams from the BSM and replace them with teams from the National League.
That way we can keep FA Cup replays without tiring out Premier League players.
While many of us have very fond memories of long past FA Cup matches going back to Newport County and Middlesbrough in my case, it does have to be acknowledged that the FA Cup has lost much of its allure in recent years even for “smaller clubs”. Remember our home FA Cup match this season “attracted” just 1600 supporters.
Thank you, that’s brought an early morning tear to me eye
on one hand I do genuinely get what @flymofrank has been arguing for.
On the other hand, how is less football a good thing? Especially when it’s been to appease the top 1%.
Footballs fucking great.
There is an online petition about this if anyone wants to sign it?
https://chng.it/CSsCDhZqVH
Isn't it just getting to a point now that the big 5/6/7 clubs or whatever should just setup their own league with Real Madrid etc and go play in space.
Leave domestic fans with the game and culture we enjoy and don't feel a need to mess with it to maximise revenue.
It still amazes me that the Premier League haven't voted to end relegation / promotion from the Championship to protect their own interests.
Tranmere and Peterborough have put out statements condemning the decision and calling for it to be suspended pending meaningful consultation
I really hope Wycombe Wanderers follow suit
As possibly the only poster marooned on a liferaft with @flymofrank , I can see that the arguments in favour of keeping FA Cup replays are largely emotional ones, with reference to the romance of the FA Cup where a minnow can dream of knocking out a big fish, and with particular reference to WWFC famous replay victories in years gone by.
To try and introduce some logic into the debate, replays in cup matches were first introduced in the 1870s, when teams such as Royal Engineers, Old Etonians, and The Wanderers featured heavily in the final stages of the Cup. There was no limit to the number of times a match could be replayed, with the game between Alvechurch and Oxford City requiring a record 5 replays in 1971-72 before a winner was found. In 1991-92, replays were limited to one, with penalty shootouts being introduced to settle the outcome at the end of extra time.
The League Cup came into being in 1960, with the EFL Trophy beginning in the 1981-82 season, both competitions having undergone various name changes.
So today, teams in Leagues 1 and 2 face a schedule of 46 League games, obviously their main priority, plus however many rounds they survive in the FA Cup, League Cup and EFL Trophy. That is a far more crowded schedule than was the case back in the early days, and there is also the possibility of League fixtures having to be rearranged due to International call-ups, and postponements due to frozen and waterlogged pitches, our recent game vs Port Vale and next week's Tuesday game at Cambridge being examples of such.
Additional games such as FA Cup replays put an increased strain on the players and the squad size, as well as increasing the risk of injury to key men. They are an anachronism which has become unnecessary in 2024, there is only a finite amount of money to go round, and only a finite number of available matchdays. Scrapping them was the right decision.
Here you go @bargepole
“The FA’s own statistics show that, over the past decade, there have been 228 replays in the FA Cup, with 19 of those matches featuring an EFL club away at a Premier League side, and 12 of those matches taking place in front of crowds of over 25,000. That means at least one EFL club each year would ordinarily get a substantial financial benefit from a replay, but non-league clubs would stand to benefit further.
This season, Cray Valley PM, who play in step 4 of non-league, earned a home replay against League One Charlton Athletic in the first round of the Cup. According to their chair, Frank May, the outcome was transformative. “Getting a draw at Charlton and then losing on penalties would have not only denied our fans the euphoria they experienced but also benefits that the replay gave us”, he said. “A chance to get the club’s name ‘out there’, the chance for part-time players to pit their skills against the full-timers [again], and of course, the revenue. This money will be used to upgrade facilities at our ground to enable us to achieve a ground grading for Step 3 and to better prepare the stadium for any future visits from League clubs in the FA Cup. Denying lower league clubs the chance to get that feeling again shows just how out of touch the FA, and especially the Premier League, are with the non-league game.”
From an article yesterday in the Grauniad.
its not just an emotional argument
And I seem to remember Martin O’Neil saying something about the replay at Peterborough in the FA Cup in our first season as being a game-changer in the team’s mentality and learning from that was fundamental to our future success.
(Not to forget the buzz around town for that Boston replay the previous round. Which is another point. Getting a draw and then the excitement of a ‘big’ team if you win the replay can be really good at building excitement and bringing new people to the ground).
Seconded.
But really the Football League should be co-ordinating this response. Very poor.
Oh @bargepole, you miss the point. With finances being really tight for all those outside of the Premier League & are now being watched closely, The FA Cup can provide a welcome relief to those bank balances. I believe that all clubs share the gate of fixtures plus the TV Revenue can sometimes double or triple the normal matchday income for some clubs. Having a minnow club taking a 'big club' to a replay, in a bigger stadium where 20,000 plus fans there gives players the opportunity to make a name for themselves or memories of playing in a big stadium that they might not have another chance to do so.
If you look at the public response from the EFL and a few of the clubs, I'm guessing that the majority of them are against this even though this change was aimed to help their fixture lists. Premier League clubs sometimes don't appreciate how light their fixture lists are compared to the rest of the fixture list. They start their season later than everyone else, have 8 less league fixtures, have a week's break in Jan/Feb, start all of the national competitions later than League 1 or 2 clubs and have no involvement in the Bristol Street Motors competitions. However, the Premier League clubs are struggling? Are they being serious or am I missing something?!?
Outside of the National League, they have more fixtures to fit into their fixture lists! FA Cup, FA Trophy/Vase & League & County Cup Competitions as well as their league and yet the FA does nothing to support or help them to try and compete their fixture lists after awful weather and often set up them up to fail in some situations. (Of course, there are exceptions)
They are messing with the oldest football tradition in the world and they have done this without any care, thought or respect of the wishes for the rest of the footballing pyramid
I agree with some of the arguments here. The quality of football across the divisions has improved dramatically in the last 15 years or so. This is down to a number of factors, including better pitches, more money in the game and better players being pushed down the pyramid through the PL's ability to recruit the best players globally. Another key factor is better conditioning - sports science, diet, training methods etc. Loading too many games onto players reduces quality and shouldn't be ignored.
The issue for me isn't so much the desire to reduce the fixture burden, but how we're going about it.
Games could be taken out of the calendar by ditching u-21 teams from the EFL Trophy, PL teams cutting back on overseas tours and pre season tournaments. That would create extra capacity to retain PL replays.
I suspect this will earn plenty of down votes but I wouldn't mind seeing a case for restructuring the FL to 4 divisions of 18. PL stays at 20 with the remaining 72 split into 4: Championship, Lg1, Lg2, Lg3. That would increase the entertainment level by squeezing the flabby mid table in each league and increasing the frequency of promotions relegations. It would also take games out of the calendar, reducing the crappy winter midweek games in the FL. The extra capacity could be used to expand the play offs (e.g to the National League format), bring back FA cup replays, and beef up the EFL Trophy/EFL Cup.
This Independent Article sums up my feelings on Football in General
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/fa-cup-replays-scrapped-premier-league-b2530814.html
So have Grimsby
There speaks a rugby man